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Free will and human stupidity


Nadjeschda

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1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

Why would God test Abraham if He knew Abraham would pass the test. Why put Abraham and his son through such a horrible test, asking him to kill his son and offer him up to God as the pagans did?

Several times, God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). God said that He did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that man would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12). God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4:1-12), or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Dt. 8:2, 16). God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Dt. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19). God says He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He DISCOVERS DEEP THINGS (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reigns of men so that HE MAY KNOW THEM (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23).

I agree with what @maryjayne has stated in the post just above this...however my understanding of the O.T. is the following, and I did not make this up of my own (something I do not do in general) but have learned it from a Christian Jewish writer:  

We sometimes lose sight of the fact that the O.T. was written about 4,000 years ago.  The O.T. was inspired by God,,,not written by Him.

God revealed Himself to the O.T. persons, starting, for sure, with Abraham -- which is the beginning of biblical history.  From the time that God revealed Himself, everything that happened was attributed to Him.  He was mentioned at all times and throughout their history.  I sometimes believe it's easy to tell which commands were of God and which were of man.

Can we believe all the 613 laws in the Torah were of God?  You're intelligent enough to know them...do YOU think all the 613 laws were made by God?  And if so, why did Jesus correct some of them?  For instance He corrected the giving of a divorce certificate,,,the hating of enemies.  If God had declared these two laws,,,then was God wrong and Jesus was correcting the Father??

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32 minutes ago, Fran C said:

I agree with what @maryjayne has stated in the post just above this...however my understanding of the O.T. is the following, and I did not make this up of my own (something I do not do in general) but have learned it from a Christian Jewish writer:  

We sometimes lose sight of the fact that the O.T. was written about 4,000 years ago.  The O.T. was inspired by God,,,not written by Him.

God revealed Himself to the O.T. persons, starting, for sure, with Abraham -- which is the beginning of biblical history.  From the time that God revealed Himself, everything that happened was attributed to Him.  He was mentioned at all times and throughout their history.  I sometimes believe it's easy to tell which commands were of God and which were of man.

Can we believe all the 613 laws in the Torah were of God?  You're intelligent enough to know them...do YOU think all the 613 laws were made by God?  And if so, why did Jesus correct some of them?  For instance He corrected the giving of a divorce certificate,,,the hating of enemies.  If God had declared these two laws,,,then was God wrong and Jesus was correcting the Father??

Hi Fran.

This is the Bible I believe in and nothing else. 

The Bible is God's inspired revelation of the origin and destiny of all things. It is the power of God unto eternal salvation and it is the source of present help for the body, soul, and spirit (Rom. 1:16; John 15:7). It is God's will and testament to men in all ages, revealing the plan of God for man here and now and in the next life. It is the record of God's dealings with man; past, present, and future. It contains God's message of eternal salvation to all people who believe in Christ and of eternal damnation to those who knowingly and willingly rebel against the gospel.

Over forty different authors wrote the sixty six books of the Bible during a period of 1,800 years; and they all had one theme. The creation and redemption of the human race by God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
These books of the Bible were written by men from all walks of life such as Kings, Priests, Judges, lawyers, Princes, Shepherds, Soldiers, Courtiers, Statesmen, Musicians, Inventors, Singers, Poets, Preachers, Prophets, Fishermen, Farmers, Tentmakers, Publicans, Physicians, Rich men and Poor men.
They were written in various lands of three continents, Europe, Asia, and Africa. They were written in different ages and by many men, some who never saw each other or knew what the others wrote on the same subjects, yet when their writings were all assembled into one book, there is not one contradiction among them."

I believe each and every one of the individual authors were inspired to write the particular book or books that God inspired him to write.

Many if not most of them did not know each other, and even would have known what every and any other author was called and inspired by God to write if at all.

After all the books were finally written and were all compiled into one, they were in complete unison on every doctrine and they agreed with each other and they were then re-written several times over the years by other men of varying and even if only slightly differing religions who never knew any of the original authors, who never knew each other as they copied and re-wrote, and things were sometimes, accidently or on purpose, changed because of the different understandings of some foreign words some dialects and even the languages themselves.

 

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On 9/16/2019 at 7:29 AM, BeauJangles said:

Okay, now I'm a little confused, but perhaps being sleep-deprived adds to that. :huh:

 

Did you have a sleepless night like I did, due to the murder of sweet “Buddy” , the mouse that everybody adored ? “Almost” everybody,  I should say........

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14 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Hi Fran.

This is the Bible I believe in and nothing else. 

The Bible is God's inspired revelation of the origin and destiny of all things. It is the power of God unto eternal salvation and it is the source of present help for the body, soul, and spirit (Rom. 1:16; John 15:7). It is God's will and testament to men in all ages, revealing the plan of God for man here and now and in the next life. It is the record of God's dealings with man; past, present, and future. It contains God's message of eternal salvation to all people who believe in Christ and of eternal damnation to those who knowingly and willingly rebel against the gospel.

Over forty different authors wrote the sixty six books of the Bible during a period of 1,800 years; and they all had one theme. The creation and redemption of the human race by God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
These books of the Bible were written by men from all walks of life such as Kings, Priests, Judges, lawyers, Princes, Shepherds, Soldiers, Courtiers, Statesmen, Musicians, Inventors, Singers, Poets, Preachers, Prophets, Fishermen, Farmers, Tentmakers, Publicans, Physicians, Rich men and Poor men.
They were written in various lands of three continents, Europe, Asia, and Africa. They were written in different ages and by many men, some who never saw each other or knew what the others wrote on the same subjects, yet when their writings were all assembled into one book, there is not one contradiction among them."

I believe each and every one of the individual authors were inspired to write the particular book or books that God inspired him to write.

Many if not most of them did not know each other, and even would have known what every and any other author was called and inspired by God to write if at all.

After all the books were finally written and were all compiled into one, they were in complete unison on every doctrine and they agreed with each other and they were then re-written several times over the years by other men of varying and even if only slightly differing religions who never knew any of the original authors, who never knew each other as they copied and re-wrote, and things were sometimes, accidently or on purpose, changed because of the different understandings of some foreign words some dialects and even the languages themselves.

 

 

Of course I agree with the above.

Why would anyone believe the bible if they didn't think it was inspired by God.  But inspired does not mean that God wrote the bible...men wrote it with the inspiration they had at the moment.

I've been helped greatly to understand the O.T.  Some ask how it could be that God said to kill every man woman and child...how He could be so mean.  If we understand revelation and inspiration, we tend not to blame God for everything that happened in the O.T. and many questions are answered through this understanding.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

1 Samuel 15:3


      1Then Samuel said to Saul, “The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. 2“Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3‘Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

      4Then Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 men of Judah. 5Saul came to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the valley. 6Saul said to the Kenites, “Go, depart, go down from among the Amalekites, so that I do not destroy you with them; for you showed kindness to all the sons of Israel when they came up from Egypt.” So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 7So Saul defeated the Amalekites, from Havilah as you go to Shur, which is east of Egypt. 8He captured Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. 9But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed.



Samuel Rebukes Saul

      10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying, 11“I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands.” And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

God commands to kill all...

God is sorry He trusted Saul as King...

Pretty odd for God to do either of the two

So you've explained the O.T. and the N.T. very well,,,the N.T. being the ultimate revelation from God through His Son Jesus....but you neglected to answer my very important question:

How is it that Jesus had to adjust/fix/repair, the incorrect teachings  that were found in the Mosaic Law if they were correct??

But I do feel that we have already killed the dead horse, so we'll leave it at this.  

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On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 6:32 PM, HAZARD said:

Not so. God knows His plan for man from beginning to end. God does not know what free moral agents will do until they chose the way in which they will go. If God created people he knew would end up in eternal Hell forever, he would be no God at all.

Regarding Esau, .  .  .  Mal. 1:1-3, V 1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 
    2, I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 
    3, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 

Hate, as used here us an idiom of preference, as in Luke 14:25-27, not a term pressing personal malice or jealousy in the sense that we now use (V 1).

This is the 6th of 12 cases in Scripture where God made a choice of the younger over the older brother. Here it was because of the disposition and attitude toward Him. Esau was a fornicator and destitute of hunger for God in his life (Heb. 12:16-17), while Jacob was the type that loved the Lord and hungered to do his will.

I am declaring all out war against the carnal reasoning of men .

You need to really think about what you just wrote .  SO , IF GOD really does know ,HE AINT NO GOD AT ALL .   BETTER lay in sack cloth and ash .

HE DOES KNOW , HE KNOWS EVERYTHING .     AND you just said , THIS MAKES HIM NO GOD at ALL .      The dark one would be very proud ,   me I am NOT .

THIS is highly dangerous .    REPENT ASAP .      

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1 hour ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

I am declaring all out war against the carnal reasoning of men .

You need to really think about what you just wrote .  SO , IF GOD really does know ,HE AINT NO GOD AT ALL .   BETTER lay in sack cloth and ash .

HE DOES KNOW , HE KNOWS EVERYTHING .     AND you just said , THIS MAKES HIM NO GOD at ALL .      The dark one would be very proud ,   me I am NOT .

THIS is highly dangerous .    REPENT ASAP .      

Instead of jumping the gun and declaring all out war on me, why don't you take the time to read every Scripture provided in this post and maybe you will get the big picture.

 The question of the omniscience of God is much miss-understood. The Bible makes many simple statements that limits God's knowledge. There would be no sense to these many passages if we do not believe them literally. There also is no meaning to them if we make or take the figuratively. There was no object in God saying such things about Himself if they were UNTRUE.

God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of man as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18: 21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 21:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Romans 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).

God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11;1; 12:1; Zech.1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail conserning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them.

 

 God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past.

Several times, God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).

God said that He did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that man would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32);

that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12).

God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signes to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4:1-12), or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Dt. 8:2, 16).

God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Dt. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).
God says He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He DISCOVERS DEEP THINGS (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reigns of men so that HE MAY KNOW THEM (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23).

God send his messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in Gen. 18: 21-22; Dan. 13:21; 11:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2-2; Rev. 1;1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1-14; 6:20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).

There is not one statement in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and pre-destinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future.

God's eternal plan for man is known from beginning to end and what God plans to bring to past He has the power to do, but concerning the free will actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestinated blessings. Those who wilfully rebel will be cursed with the predestinated punishments according to His plan.

It is His plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22;17).

There are many prophecies and promises in Scripture based upon people meeting certain conditions; God plan is known by Him from beginning to end and men who are obedient to God will be blessed with the promised blessings made by God. Those who fail God and refuse to believe God and deny Christ will be cursed with the promised curses.

 

If one doesnt agree with this, read these Scriptures.

 

(Lev. 26:3-54; Deut. 11:13-32; 12:1-32; 28:1-62; 30:15-20; 55:1-13;; 59:8-14; etc).

Edited by HAZARD
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2 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Instead of jumping the gun and declaring all out war on me, why don't you take the time to read every Scripture provided in this post and maybe you will get the big picture.

 The question of the omniscience of God is much miss-understood. The Bible makes many simple statements that limits God's knowledge. There would be no sense to these many passages if we do not believe them literally. There also is no meaning to them if we make or take the figuratively. There was no object in God saying such things about Himself if they were UNTRUE.

God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of man as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18: 21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 21:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Romans 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).

God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11;1; 12:1; Zech.1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail conserning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them.

 

 God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past.

Several times, God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).

God said that He did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that man would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32);

that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12).

God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signes to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4:1-12), or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Dt. 8:2, 16).

God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Dt. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).
God says He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He DISCOVERS DEEP THINGS (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reigns of men so that HE MAY KNOW THEM (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23).

God send his messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in Gen. 18: 21-22; Dan. 13:21; 11:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2-2; Rev. 1;1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1-14; 6:20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).

There is not one statement in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and pre-destinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future.

God's eternal plan for man is known from beginning to end and what God plans to bring to past He has the power to do, but concerning the free will actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestinated blessings. Those who wilfully rebel will be cursed with the predestinated punishments according to His plan.

It is His plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22;17).

There are many prophecies and promises in Scripture based upon people meeting certain conditions; God plan is known by Him from beginning to end and men who are obedient to God will be blessed with the promised blessings made by God. Those who fail God and refuse to believe God and deny Christ will be cursed with the promised curses.

 

If one doesnt agree with this, read these Scriptures.

 

(Lev. 26:3-54; Deut. 11:13-32; 12:1-32; 28:1-62; 30:15-20; 55:1-13;; 59:8-14; etc).

Please don't take the correction personal .

Its not you I declare war on ,  just carnal reasoning .

Ps ,   try and remember how often JESUS himself asked questions , YET HE ALREADY KNEW .

Its like when GOD was walking through the garden .  HE asked the man , DID YOU eat of that tree .  YET GOD already KNEW HE DID .

GOD knows everything .     Now please , please repent of this mindset and don't take the corrections personal .

 

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12 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Please don't take the correction personal .

Its not you I declare war on ,  just carnal reasoning .

Ps ,   try and remember how often JESUS himself asked questions , YET HE ALREADY KNEW .

Its like when GOD was walking through the garden .  HE asked the man , DID YOU eat of that tree .  YET GOD already KNEW HE DID .

GOD knows everything .     Now please , please repent of this mindset and don't take the corrections personal .

 

There is no possible way you have checked all the scriptures I have provided. For example, why did God need to test Abraham, if He knew he would obey? And why did God say, "FOR NOW I KNOW," . . . . . . ?

Gen 22:12 
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 

 

After Abraham raised the dagger and was about to kill his son. God does not lie, He never knew what Abraham would choose to do until he made his free will choice.

Edited by HAZARD
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3 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

There is no possible way you have checked all the scriptures I have provided. For example, why did God need to test Abraham, if He knew he would obey? And why did God say, "FOR NOW I KNOW," . . . . . . ?

Gen 22:12 
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. fter Abraham raised the dagger and was about to kill his son.

He said it for Abrahams sake .     God already KNEW what Abraham was going to do .   He even preached the gospel to Abraham on that same mount .

Abraham did not know what Abraham was going to do .    WHEN Abraham was found faithful ,  GOD let Abraham KNOW that this pleased GOD .

But GOD already knew what Abraham was going to do .    Just as HE KNOWS what we will do before we do it .  AND when we do GOOD , HE consoles us

God knows all things .     Now I must bow out of this .     I did all I could .     NO need for me to strive over it .   I was serious and did what I could .

SO my hands and soul are clean in this matter .      All else will be but strife .  But please do repent of this mindset .    

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50 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

He said it for Abrahams sake .     God already KNEW what Abraham was going to do .   He even preached the gospel to Abraham on that same mount .

Abraham did not know what Abraham was going to do .    WHEN Abraham was found faithful ,  GOD let Abraham KNOW that this pleased GOD .

But GOD already knew what Abraham was going to do .    Just as HE KNOWS what we will do before we do it .  AND when we do GOOD , HE consoles us

God knows all things .     Now I must bow out of this .     I did all I could .     NO need for me to strive over it .   I was serious and did what I could .

SO my hands and soul are clean in this matter .      All else will be but strife .  But please do repent of this mindset .    

Please repent of calling God a liar. God said, For now I know after Abraham reacted.  

Several times, God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).

God said that He did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that man would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); Is God lying when He says these things??

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