ReneeIW Posted September 16, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 780 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2019 Just wondering if all Churches still teach that the Scriptures about Adam and Eve were meant to be taken literally? I've always taken them literally, but now I'm having second thoughts and wondering if I'm the only one. All the evil and destruction in the world happened because they ate a piece of fruit? Why not guard the tree of the knowledge of good and evil with a flaming sword the same way the tree of life was eventually guarded? Yes they disobeyed God, but did the punishment fit the crime? The Old Testmant spends a lot of time talking about how just/fair God is, and more importantly, how merciful He is. Why no mercy in the Garden if all they did was eat a piece of fruit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lftc Posted September 16, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 536 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 323 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/16/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, ReneeIW said: Just wondering if all Churches still teach that the Scriptures about Adam and Eve were meant to be taken literally? Good day ReneeIW. All churches don't teach much of anything in common. If you are asking if Churches that could be considered to be doctrinally in agreement about "One God, Jesus, Cross, Resurrection", then still, no, they do not all teach the same thing about the historical accuracy of anything. It appears from your statement that you are looking for a vote of churches to determine truth. I firmly believe that you are completely capable of determining that by looking at the issues and seeking the Spirit of God to guide you. Counting the vote from churches does not indicate truth, but you already knew that. Your topic here indicates that you are setting out on exactly that journey. Bravo! Edited September 16, 2019 by lftc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wickham Posted September 16, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 15 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2019 I believe that the story was literal. The reason is because of the fulfilled prophecies. If God is able to predict the future, which is a very difficult thing to do, it gives me confidence that His account of the past is also accurate. If you are interested, I shared a few of my thoughts on this topic in a recent YouTube vlog entitled "Is the Bible Reliable?". Adam and Eve ate fruit, but the real issue was that they chose their own way over God's way. This action opened a way of life that resulted in untold evil. I suppose in this sense, all the evil could be attributed back to that first act. But I think it is more accurate to view the way of life, continued through the years, as the real culprit. As far as mercy in the Garden of Eden, God told Adam and Eve that in the day they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would surely die. Yet they did not die. However, something did die, because God clothed them with skins, and then they were allowed to live on, at least for a time. This experience was a symbol of Jesus. Paul wrote, "All of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ" (Gal. 3:27, NASB). When we are baptized, we are united with Christ, just as Adam and Eve were clothed with the animals in Eden which were sacrificed. And then He grants us eternal life, which is even better than Adam and Eve being allowed to live on for a time. And one might even say that Adam and Eve were symbolically united with the animals in Eden. After all, they sure looked like them after being clothed with their skins. Thus, in a symbolic sense, Adam and Eve did die on the day they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Likewise, when we are united with Christ, His death counts for us because He considers us part of Himself. This union is so close that He considers our sins as His own, thus His death can justly pay for our guilt. As mentioned already, this union happens because of baptism. Baptism is a symbol of death and resurrection. In other words, believers respond to their sinful desires as a dead person would, and they respond to Christ's desires as very much alive. This way of life undoes the problematic lifestyle introduced by Adam and Eve, and restores people to a path that will result in eternal happiness. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted September 16, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 26 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,602 Content Per Day: 4.02 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ReneeIW said: I've always taken them literally, but now I'm having second thoughts and wondering if I'm the only one. All the evil and destruction in the world happened because they ate a piece of fruit? Why not guard the tree of the knowledge of good and evil with a flaming sword the same way the tree of life was eventually guarded? Oh yes, they messed up but the real stuff happened in Gen 6. That was the real turning point and why the flood was necessary. Then there is Babel and the scattering of the nations and the various pantheons set up by the sons of God that were tasked with overseeing those nations. That's why God chose for Himself a nation - Israel, but sadly they did not do much better. There is much to the history in the Tanach and it was just not all about Adam and Eve. After all, it was the Nachash that deceived Eve, even though Adam took the wrong choice knowingly. Yeshua came to set thing right: 1) to reverse this sins of the Watchers at Hermon 2) to regather the nations scattered at Babel and the lost tribes 3) to save the whole of creations which includes you and me. God's idea for His sons and daughters is to rule in His Council with Him and Yeshua along with His (good) Heavenly Holy Ones. The father wants a blended family of humans and divine being to live in harmony with in His Eden. That is why the creation groans like a woman getting ready to bear a child. Edited September 16, 2019 by Justin Adams 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jayne Posted September 16, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,776 Content Per Day: 1.29 Reputation: 4,746 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Popular Post Share Posted September 16, 2019 1 hour ago, ReneeIW said: Just wondering if all Churches still teach that the Scriptures about Adam and Eve were meant to be taken literally? I've always taken them literally, but now I'm having second thoughts and wondering if I'm the only one. All the evil and destruction in the world happened because they ate a piece of fruit? Why not guard the tree of the knowledge of good and evil with a flaming sword the same way the tree of life was eventually guarded? Yes they disobeyed God, but did the punishment fit the crime? The Old Testmant spends a lot of time talking about how just/fair God is, and more importantly, how merciful He is. Why no mercy in the Garden if all they did was eat a piece of fruit? Yes, I believe they were literally the first two people on earth - created by God. Guess who also believes that. Luke - In his genealogy of Jesus Christ, he goes all the way back to Adam. Jesus - In Christ's discussions of marriage, he refers to Adam and Eve "in the beginning" as how God instituted marriage. Since Jesus WAS the creator - I think he would know what he was talking about. Paul - He relates Christ and Adam. Adam - brought death. Jesus - brought life. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ God made the tree of knowledge of good and evil available to Adam/Eve so that their loyalty to God would indeed be loyalty. One can't be faithful, true, or virtuous of their own free will if there is no free will. Otherwise, one is a robot who obeys out of cold duty and not love and devotion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Did the punishment fit the crime? No. They should have been destroyed on the spot. They receive GREAT mercy. God allowed them to live. He made coats of skins for them as their futile attempt to clothe themselves was a disaster. He maintained a relationship with them - albeit not face to face anymore, but the relationship was real. He provided them with a family - lots of children. Eve was blessed to give birth and was glad for it even though the pain was a punishment. Her words at her first child's birth show that. What they did was not just to "eat a piece of fruit". They chose to turn their back on God and create their own rules and become their own masters. Eve chose to listen to the devil and BELIEVE that God's words were false, lusted after the fruit for good, and wanted to be as wise as God, equal with him. She was deceived, and acted accordingly. Adam just flat out defied God. The Bible says he was with Eve when this happened. His blatant defiance - his eyes wide open - is what brought sin into the world. And what happened? They instantaneously knew what evil was because they became sinners and felt great shame and blamed anyone except themselves. Adam even blamed God. There first son was a murderer. You see, he had free will also. It was inherited from his parents. Everyone after Adam and Eve became a wretch of a human being who had to be saved from what Adam and Eve brought into the world. That's what Paul teaches in the New Testament. The whole world became cursed because of their deception and defiance. The New Testament gives much credibility to Adam and Eve being very, very literal. 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lftc Posted September 16, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 536 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 323 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/16/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2019 54 minutes ago, ReneeIW said: The Old Testmant spends a lot of time talking about how just/fair God is, and more importantly, how merciful He is. I think here is an important issue: Who decides what is fair? If you look at any country in the world, you will find numerous laws that can be easily shown to be unfair when compared against other standards. Yet these laws are used to destroy peoples lives. (this paragraph is intended to show that standards of what is fair change in geographic regions and yet are enforced with violence. This paragraph does not pertain to the actions of God, but only to the actions of men.) If you look at social opinion, you see dramatic changes over time and in geographic regions. I started to write several examples of this here but I realized that many social issues are highly charged and would distract the conversation from a focus on the changing nature of fair. ... I thought of another example and wrote it all out. Then realized that the new example would excite a negative response as well, again distracting from the goal of writing this. So deleted it. I can't find an example of changing social beliefs without being a afraid to post it. Perhaps that fact is enough to illustrate the point. Do your own research to examine what things change and how violently strong people feel about each set of changes. This paragraph does not pertain to the actions of God, but only to the actions of men. Human sense of fair is incredibly fickle. So as humans it is difficult to determine if God is fair because we have a changing view of fair. So I keep that in mind for myself, my feelings about right and wrong are easily swayed by group opinions. But as I wrote in other posts, there are difficulties that need addressing. Your basic issue, if I am understanding you, is reconciling the God of Mercy with the God of Judgement, since we know this is only one God. I for one, desparately need to see the Mercy side of God a lot, being a bride that needs the "I love you" every day. When I see the judgement side it can be very threatening. Yet I have an overpowering need for truth. It would be so nice to just lean back into the Mercy side of God and ignore the hard questions. Some people do that and I admire them. I have long since left the stage of growth where everyone must be like me. Their salvation is not dependent on their study of anything. Faith in Jesus saves. I think you share this need to understand. How can God be Merciful and Loving if sin was so bad that eating from the wrong tree sent the whole human race to damnation (as the doctrine of original sin asserts). There are lots of models people construct (ideas they present as alternative ways of viewing the problem). Many models try to lessen the severity of the event - the eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But even so there are many other such difficulties to encounter in the scriptures. So I decided it was best to pursue it rather than avoid it. For me. I found a way of looking at it that brings many difficulties in scripture into alignment. Go the other way and embrace it for what it says. It helps to say it in other words, as the original words are tied in our minds to the way we were originally taught. When Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, the sin was so great that God himself had to die, because he loves us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lftc Posted September 16, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 536 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 323 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/16/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2019 1 hour ago, ReneeIW said: Why not guard the tree of the knowledge of good and evil with a flaming sword the same way the tree of life was eventually guarded? If you accept the previous post I made on this topic, then it is easier to answer this question. In Romans Paul says that the Law was added so that sin might increase. He explains that in detail and it is a very important part of his logic presented in Romans. Why did God do that? Read Romans over and over until you understand it. It is not a devotional with separate pieces for each day. If you go to outside sources for help, be gaurded against their biases. You ask why God did not keep Adam and Eve from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. A very important question. I ask it a different way, why did he put it there at all? He even put it right next to the Tree of Life, which they were not prevented from eating until after they ate the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Understanding Romans helps this journey. Understanding the Sermon on the Mount helps this journey. Understanding the Gospel is crucial. Jesus died for the sins of who? The scripture says in plain words: the whole world. Salvation is not the forgiveness of sins, it is believing that Jesus (who died for the sins) is supreme (Lord) and has risen from the dead. The antithesis of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Suddenly, for me, the Garden story became crystal clear. God had predestined that the Christ would come and carefully built his plans so that people, whom he Loves, would not be deceived into thinking they could do anything other than trust his mercy. I have come to believe that being born into this world gave me the opportunity to face massive difficulty, which I HATE. Being born into the spiritual world, has undone the death at foot of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Now I have the opportunity to do something 1/3 of the "angels" couldn't do. Trust God. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lftc Posted September 16, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 536 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 323 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/16/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2019 2 hours ago, ReneeIW said: Adam and Eve were meant to be taken literally? I believe it is literal. I very much believe that the stories in the Bible are literal. I have been around long enough to learn that virtually everything that men say is based on their assumptions. When studying history one finds many instances of items that completely destroy the common western view of history. I say this to indicate that believing in a literal Genesis account can be reasonable. But, for the people who believe the Gospel, but cannot reconcile the Genesis account with Scientific American, I say great! We are brothers. However, the Genesis story must remain intact for what it says as it is where God starts making sure we understand his plan. So even if it is not literal, the problem of the enormity of sin remains in the figurative story. True mercy is only visible when it overshadows true sin. When we diminish sin to just something we have to say sorry about, mercy is almost meaningless. So literal or figurative, treat it as the crucial beginning of the story. Having said that, I think that the figurative view of scripture leads to very difficult logic problems that can be very destructive. Not my road. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted September 16, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.95 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Sonshine☀️ said: No, not literally, sis. The serpent in the garden is none other than Satan, and he seduced Eve. Should I continue? Some folk may not like it. ... I'd like to hear it, but my battery needs charging. And a few other things also. Will catch up later. Edited September 16, 2019 by BeauJangles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted September 16, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 26 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,602 Content Per Day: 4.02 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2019 14 minutes ago, Sonshine☀️ said: No, not literally, sis. The serpent in the garden is none other than Satan, and he seduced Eve. Should I continue? Some folks may not like it. … The Nachash.Probably a serpentine cherub. Shining, adversarial and deceptive. Ruling Holy One (or was until cast down). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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