Steward George Posted September 18, 2019 Group: Steward Followers: 110 Topic Count: 10,465 Topics Per Day: 1.26 Content Count: 27,764 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 15,435 Days Won: 128 Joined: 06/30/2001 Status: Online Birthday: 09/21/1971 Steward Share Posted September 18, 2019 Shalom everyone, This is a discussion between @Jostler and @Justin Adams on a topic entitled -- Two Separate Wars. Hope you enjoy the dialogue, God bless, George 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted September 18, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 26 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,604 Content Per Day: 3.98 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 18, 2019 Thanks George! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted September 18, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 26 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,604 Content Per Day: 3.98 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 18, 2019 (edited) To start the ball rolling: Let us just forget for a moment the 'normal' views. I mean, the 70 weeks thing and the 7 year thing of which there is little evidence. Also the various Darby and Scofield rapture ideas. Scofield's doctored bible editions were sent free to hundred of seminaries, so it is not surprising that these seem to be what many hold to. Also about 1500 a Jesuit priest was asked by the Pope to find some way to divert criticism. Another early rapture idea ensued. Let's say (and there is some evidence) that John's Revelation was written in Aramaic about AD 68 and later transcribed into Greek and then circulated. (Things were slow in those days.) This poses a question. Was the smaller Ezekiel war (and Revelation's reference) talking about the fall of Jerusalem and that horrible state of affairs. If you read Josephus' account it was such a horrendous disaster that the Israelis were numb-struck for years after. There are many detail in the Josephus account that none of us are probably aware of. If the above is the case, then we have to really look closely at the so-called millennium and other various things covered by the prophets. This might put the 'final conflict' in a very different light. Ezekiel's 'big war'. The second one. I am not a preterist or hold to any of the pop-church end times stories that sell millions of copies. None of these hold up and you have to massacre scripture to make them fit your timelines. Furthermore, much of Revelations is in cycles it seems and so cannot be read literally in a linear fashion. So back to our 'assumptions' about these two wars. How can we get rid of all the 'stuff' we have been bombarded with repeatedly over the years of pulpit-pulp and see it clearly without preconceptions? The early theologians are quite suspect and some of the translations (later ones) are also suspect. Qumran exposes this quite well. The early church 'fathers' being steeped in Greek philosophy and schooled in Plato, seems to have stripped our scriptural understanding of all the supernatural aspects of God, His works and His prophets. The 'its only real if I can touch it' idea is quite prevalent, and except for some 'bothersome' quotes by Peter and Jude, most theology has managed ignore anything supernatural in the Hebrew writings - I.e. Gen 6 etc. Augustine was much elevated and followed because he did not like the stuff that is in the Hebrew scriptures (he only read Latin) and Augustine furthered this by his publications and the 'sons of Seth' idea in Gen 6. All wrong but they were very influential in the era of the early church. If you read much of this you will find antisemitism was the rule rather than the exception, so everything Israeli was downplayed or outright ignored. Read Luther, Calvin and other 'notables' to see this common thread against Israel. Thus the fall of Jerusalem is not really considered much. The general feeling was, not unlike the Twin Towers sentiment in the EU; 'They got what they deserved'. I was in England and heard that from a BBC commentator as the pictures were relayed on 9/11. Nasty. So what of the great second war in Ezekiel? If we are mentally preparing (which might be wrong) for a smaller war first, might we be totally amazed when the final one happens unannounced, but with just a few signs as seems to be the case. These prophesies, Daniel and Revelation, Ezekiel, Amos, Isiah, etc., were to Israel and not just to 21st century EU/US people. We often make the mistake of thinking it is all about us. That might not be the case. Edited September 18, 2019 by Justin Adams 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted September 19, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.40 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 19, 2019 Justin we have a lot in common, including a conviction that perhaps the Word has still more to reveal to us, and that most modern "systems" of eschatology fall short in very significant ways. One of my hopes is related to something i think you strongly implied above. And that's a necessary commitment to a fresh start, letting past "interpretations" go, and taking a fresh look at what passages actually say, identifying what they DO say clearly, what assumptions we've previously layered over what is said, and making a conscious attempt to clearly identify the difference....basically a fresh commitment to letting the WORD speak, and interpret itself where interpretation is necessary. Before i go any further, I want to spend some time re-reading your post, and refreshing my reading of Ezekiel 38-39 and passages in Revelation particularly that might have to do with this "two wars" question. I have a feeling, there may be other OT references in books like Isaiah, Jeremiah or any other of the OT "prophets"..including Daniel. I'm not sure exactly where to look, but I bet as we give ourselves to the question, the Teacher will do His job and "guide" into the truth. We don't need to be in a rush, and given the format, we should be able to work on a few things at a time without getting derailed too fast Unless HE derails it, which I know we'd both be fine with. Otherwise we only have ourselves to blame Back soon...gonna do some boning up on the passages we do already know are relevant. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted September 19, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.40 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 19, 2019 btw feel free to elaborate on something while I'm getting up to speed 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted September 19, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 26 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,604 Content Per Day: 3.98 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 19, 2019 It is my agreement that to take a step back may indeed be a step forward. Until I got Heiser's take on the 'end-game' of the Lord, I could not fathom much of the eschaton or the various prophecies. Working backwards might be a fair idea. We know the end, so how does it come about? And I do not want to massacre scripture to 'make it fit' either. I also have seen that some 'prophecies' are Godly Rants, and sometimes DO NOT come to pass. Such as the Amos rant about Edom and Obadiah and similar. God (the Father) seems to 'take it out' on The Lamb, so that then they also can have a 'way' sanctified thru the Veil as well as the other dispossessed nations and peoples. Pentecost was probably not seen clearly by any prophet. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted September 19, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.40 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 19, 2019 Justin do you read Hebrew and Greek? While we're idling along finding our footing, might as well figure out who has the best chance of having a look at original languages I know how to use a concordance and that's about it. Helpful, but sorely lacking when tenses and genders grammatic construction contributes to full understanding. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted September 19, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 26 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,604 Content Per Day: 3.98 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 19, 2019 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Jostler said: Justin do you read Hebrew and Greek? While we're idling along finding our footing, might as well figure out who has the best chance of having a look at original languages I know how to use a concordance and that's about it. Helpful, but sorely lacking when tenses and genders grammatic construction contributes to full understanding. It is a challenge though I can do neither, there are some good things online that can help. If you copy a certain Hebrew passage, they can give you some help. even a lot of Hebrews did not use their mother tongue and so the Targums filled that void. They are Aramaic and surprisingly a lot of scripture is thus written. https://context.reverso.net/translation/english-hebrew/the+son+of+god It is not too hard to see the Hebrew meanings like the link above. There are a couple on here that know Hebrew. Diaste and Abdicate I think both are conversant. So PM them if you have an issue. All my personal research has been painstaking with various translations. So far, NET seems good along with ESV and EXB. Edited September 19, 2019 by Justin Adams 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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