theInquirer Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 57 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/08/2002 Author Share Posted October 1, 2019 15 hours ago, choir loft said: I spoke to a man after worship services recently. He told me he had established a presence on FaceBook and that he had very many people visit it. I told him I don't do FaceBook. I read books. He responded, "how can you learn anything if you don't use FaceBook?"" In a recent poll 60% of adults get their news from FaceBook. 20% of that crowd believes every word of it. The educational level and scholastic ability of Americans has dropped below that of most third world countries due mostly to electronic addiction. This is not to say that the information delivered onLine is always inaccurate or untrue. I'm not implying that at all. I am saying it is almost always misleading. The solution of one-way information flow is the development of educational skills which include a great deal more than watching a video presentation. They involve the development of skills to gather information, to sort it out in a coherent order and to write out conclusions in a logical and persuasive format. It is this skill at gathering and sorting out which has been lost to the present generation of Americans. Left with nothing except electronic presentations they can only respond to the material they're fed. Consequently they are easily manipulated by anyone with an agenda to do so and who can make their presentations entertaining as well. Most current Christian 'information' is distributed in the form of an apologetic, which is designed to manipulate the hearer to accept the point of view of the speaker. Case in point is the content of most educational courses offered by institutions of higher learning (Bible schools, seminaries and graduate courses in Theology) in the subject of apologetics. The explanation given for application of the principles of apologetics are identical to the classic forms of secular propaganda; glittering generalities, repetition (of simple terms and phrases), identification (of the target audience with the subject), etc. It is easier to manipulate a gullible ignorant crowd by the use of apologetics than to teach them how to think/reason. <--- This is openly admitted in classes by instructors of higher education as an axiom of apologetics. The purpose of apologetics is manipulation! The question thus submitted to you is this; Do you like being manipulated? The solution to manipulation is the development of skills to gather, collate and effectively report on the subject at hand. When an entire generation relies upon video sources for their information they abandon their ability to examine the truth of what they're being told. They become like sheep who cannot or will not exert a minimal amount of energy and time to learn the quality of that which is being fed to them. They can be manipulated to believe almost anything. Let me repeat that; they can be manipulated to believe almost anything - and as a corollary, to suppose what they've been taught is their own idea! Hence our society today is being manipulated and persuaded to believe that good is evil and evil is good, that well established traditions that have built our great nation are obsolete and need to be exchanged for traditions and values that will eventually tear it to pieces. These influences have crept into the church, thus making it apostate with regard to Biblical knowledge and understanding and application and obedience to God. Do you like being manipulated? that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... “The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.” Edward Bernays, PROPAGANDA (1928), p. 10 Thanks for your advice; I found your remarks to be very interesting. However, if I may, I will take a page from your book and ask how and/or upon what basis do you make your claim the most of modern apologetics is nothing more than manipulative propaganda? You cited how higher classes openly admit to manipulation in apologetics, but could you be a bit more specific? Where exactly have these assertions been made? In how many places? And what exactly do you mean by manipulation? Fallacious reasoning, yes, but which types specifically? I must say, though, that you raise some good points with which I agree wholeheartedly: far too many "arguments" for or against Christianity are nothing more than plays on emotion (although I do believe that the emotional aspect of many questions is a valid one). I will say, though, that I wasn't really asking for "information sources" at all, but rather places where I could actually dialogue with practiced apologists along the lines of Greg Koukl, Sean McDowell (although I guess he doesn't have a q&a resource), etc. I really appreciated your thoughts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theInquirer Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 57 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/08/2002 Author Share Posted October 1, 2019 On 9/26/2019 at 8:32 PM, Abdicate said: Deuteronomy 19:15 A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established. The greatest error by any human about God is to believe another human over God's word. Most people do not believe the word of God, and sadly many "Christians" interpret it rather than use it to interpret what's hard to understand. What I mean is the verse I posted. While searching the word of God, if you find something and it doesn't make sense, then find it in another verse and not in another person. Let the word of God be its own witness. The next thing to do is to BELIEVE the word of God as it is written. It is God's word, not man. The rest, the Lord will help you understand. 1 John 2:27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him. All of this is great, but I guess I'm saying that my problem in the first place is questioning that very bastion to which you are saying I ought to run for refuge. How can/do I deal with that? That's really the crux of my problem(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theInquirer Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 57 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/08/2002 Author Share Posted October 1, 2019 15 hours ago, Ruth Also said: As a mom who had several teens successfully launch from our typically dysfunctional home into self-financed degrees in sciences, technology, health care and human services, I too was impressed at your post - at age 17. You've got a lot going with those brain cells up there, Friend. Protect them! But as you follow along your road, don't forget that you are what you do. What you do defines who you are. If you do rightly, you are a right-minded person. If you do wrong, you are a wrong-minded person. With that basis, don't forget that the LORD God is interested in stacking the odds in your favor. Get a Bible and study it. The book of Proverbs has good wisdom for how to act. In it you'll find things like: 1. stay out of lusts: getting involved will derail your best intentions. 2. Act prudently: it will always serve you well. This includes minding what you say, minding your boundaries and those of others, showing appropriate respect to everyone, being diligent and having integrity. The wisdom goes beyond Proverbs. It's all there for our benefit. We can live by every word from God. The other stories show examples of what happens when people obeyed and when they didn't. And they often didn't. Jesus removed every barrier - you have access to this same LORD God through faith and all your past has been forgiven. Of course there is the temptation to prioritize the definition of your own life and define proofs about God before tackling what you choose to be doing with your life, but actually by studying what God says and walking in those wise things, you'll eventually see that the solidness you seek that was there all the time. Not to spook you, but don't forget, God has an enemy and therefore all of us has that same enemy trying to derail us from the sensible path of walking in agreement with God. Can you imagine yourself at the end of your life? What would you want to look back on and see about your character and the list of righteous behaviors and accomplishments you'd want to have as your legacy? I'm not suggesting thinking about prosperity or wealth accumulation, but more like your "good deeds" list. While good deeds don't save us, they form a kind of ruler at this point for you to measure what you'd need to do now to get to "there" and be able to look back on a good life. It wouldn't hurt to get started on doing those good things now - along with continuing to study what God says to add wisdom. Believe me, you'll need that Book for the whole of your life, no matter how many brain cells you have going for you. His wisdom is higher. As a fellow-traveler on this spinning ball hurling into an unknown future now with grandkids your age, I would offer this short encouragement with a kindly cup of cocoa and some healthy whole grain cookies. Check out Matthew 21.28-32. May you make a difference in the world with your life - and you can. It will depend on what you choose to do. Best to you! -Ruth Thanks very much for your encouragement. It always helps me to step back and just remember that in the end, God will give me strength and wisdom to get through the doubt and that each successive wave will pass--and that God will bring good out of it. So to hear that kind of encouragement from someone like you, who has more experience with the kinds of things life and the devil will throw your way, and who has come out the other side. . . well, that really reassures me. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,209 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, theInquirer said: Thanks for your advice; I found your remarks to be very interesting. However, if I may, I will take a page from your book and ask how and/or upon what basis do you make your claim the most of modern apologetics is nothing more than manipulative propaganda? You cited how higher classes openly admit to manipulation in apologetics, but could you be a bit more specific? Where exactly have these assertions been made? In how many places? And what exactly do you mean by manipulation? Fallacious reasoning, yes, but which types specifically? I must say, though, that you raise some good points with which I agree wholeheartedly: far too many "arguments" for or against Christianity are nothing more than plays on emotion (although I do believe that the emotional aspect of many questions is a valid one). I will say, though, that I wasn't really asking for "information sources" at all, but rather places where I could actually dialogue with practiced apologists along the lines of Greg Koukl, Sean McDowell (although I guess he doesn't have a q&a resource), etc. I really appreciated your thoughts! 9 hours ago, theInquirer said: I hold a Masters Degree in Theology from a northern seminary. Believe me when I say I did my homework, but didn't get a T-shirt as a reward. I did get a firm grasp of the general direction congregations are being misled and I did get a huge debt for my efforts. The seminary I attended was a merger of three main line Christian denominations. One of them is the same school attended by Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. In other words, I didn't get my letters from some fly-by-night onLine operation. I'm not going to provide an exhaustive list of institutions and denominations offering classes on apologetics for two reasons. First, the moderators of this web site would censor any specific names and places if given. They've done it before and I have no doubt they'd do it again. Secondly, most of the readers of these pages are heavily persuaded of their own fantasies concerning the way the world works and what they ought to believe. They've been well manipulated already. So I advise you to do your own homework. You may begin by making your own list of Bible colleges and secular universities that offer courses on subjects related to debate and apologetics. There is only one cautionary piece of advice I can give; learn the difference between subjective and objective thought. DO NOT TAKE ONE MORE STEP FORWARD UNTIL YOU DO. The educational system in America, both secular and religious, is based upon subjective rather than objective thought and words. Google the definition of those terms if you don't know what they mean. One of the reasons for the high cost of secular higher education in America is the adoption of subjective reasoning and methods. They've got it down to an art form and the parents and students who get caught in this web of lies and misinformation pay a terrible price for their mistakes. (For example, did you know textbook publishers are working very hard at redefining the PERIODIC TABLE of ELEMENTS? <--- do you know what this is? Do you understand the implications of this matter? More textbooks can be $old when revisions come out annually.) The object of ANY subjective argument is to manipulate the target person or audience into agreeing with the speaker or originator. Ultimately the process is designed to make the victim believe the conclusions to their subjective thinking are their idea in the first place. Bottom line is that it's an intellectual con job. SUBJECTIVE LOGIC IS NOT LIMITED TO RELIGION, BUT IS FIRMLY ENTRENCHED IN AMERICAN CULTURE. It has been estimated that less than 1% of the population utilizes objective thought when seeking information, collating the data and in giving conclusions in written or spoken form. Please note that this < 1% is a smaller number than the fabled one per-cent of wealthy persons thought to rule the nation. What do I mean by manipulation? In the secular world manipulation is accomplished by marketing. In the religious world manipulation is accomplished by apologetics. Think marketing/advertising; which new car to buy, which refrigerator, which shirt or brand of shoes and which political candidate to support with your vote.(*) These are examples of secular manipulation. Think apologetics/doctrine; creation vs. big bang, trinity vs. Adonai Echad (hebrew for God is one), eschatology, LAW vs grace and which denomination tells the truth about things. These are examples of religious manipulation. Beware of following religious celebrities. St. Paul warns against it for good reason, but most Christians reject the apostles' advice and follow their own false apostles anyway. This is the result of laziness and blatant stupidity. Avoid pre-digested thinking designed for gullible minds. It inevitably leads to manipulation. The solution is to do your own studying and learn the methods by which one can arrive at solid conclusions from objective sources. When you do you will be accused of insanity, lies and demonic influence. They said the same thing about Jesus too, but Christians seem to ignore that as well. Hope this helps. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (*) In actual fact, votes don't matter. The Democratic and Republican parties are two heads of the same snake. The faces change, but government policies remain the same. This is why candidates for high office seem to be so much the same - heated partisan rhetoric notwithstanding. "Votes don't matter. Those that count the votes matter." - Joseph Stalin Edited October 1, 2019 by choir loft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,209 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Abdicate said: So you don't believe the word of God? That, I cannot help you with. Has it not occurred to you that it isn't the Word of God that is in doubt here, but rather the multitude of words written by fools whose self-important opinions rule these pages? "Those that love truth embrace it. Those that hate truth interpret it." - Blaze Pascal The proliferation of interpretations on these pages arises from the adoption of subjective thinking, which is itself a lie based upon misconceptions and fantasies. Gullible Christians accept this rubbish as gospel and censor anyone who illuminates the error of their ways. As it was once done to Jesus, who told the truth, so it is done today by Christians who muzzle and censor the truth - thinking they're doing God a favor. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited October 1, 2019 by choir loft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruth Also Posted October 2, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 65 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 57 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/13/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted October 2, 2019 Dear Inquirer, I would agree that you seem to have a firm grip on the fact that God is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. There are a lot of voices out there. I'm sure I could not have come up with a more persuasive discussion on the importance of your own study and making up your own mind about what you objectively discover in your research than choir loft and Abdicate discussed. (I'm only citing those on this page because it's late and I'm tired.) At no point ever consider that God gave you those great brain cells for any other reason that to affirm His excellence and see Him in His best logic as you are seeking Him. The world will obviously try to squeeze you into a mold of psuedo-science, but when you closely examine so many claims you can see right through the logic. Even at best, when people are trying to do the right thing, there is another aspect they didn't consider and a consequence for it. And of course there are people without the best of intentions as well - deliberate manipulators. Those handling the Scriptures fall into those camps as well, a point our brothers both made so succinctly. Gather ideas from the best minds you find and mull over them. There is a congruent story for you to discover about how God made things to work well for us, a path where we will find fewer problems, a right way to behave both outwardly and inwardly. There's a walk of humility ahead for you to share from your own experiences and encourage the next person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theInquirer Posted October 2, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 57 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/08/2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2019 14 hours ago, Abdicate said: So you don't believe the word of God? That, I cannot help you with. No, I believe it. . . it's just that when the devil hits me with doubts against it, I have to have something other than it to seek a solution from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted October 2, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,209 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, Abdicate said: Well, I can't tell if you're supporting me or calling me out, but I post the word of God without interpretation. When people dismiss it for their dogma (as I used to do just as eagerly) I have a problem with people twisting the plain simple word of God. The VAST majority of people "say" a lot on this site that is not scriptural, but every time I say something it's with the word of God and ignored. The issues today are not new by any means. To quote the word of God: John 18:38a Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” ... It is equally ironic that Pilate asked the question of the One Who is only Truth (John 1:14; 8:32) that question. It is the burning question written in our heart, within our DNA (Rom 2:15), and why we love puzzles and mysteries as a race, Pro 25:2. But, when that truth collides with our beliefs (Col 2:8), then theology is born (1 Tim 4:1-3) to discard the truth. I am a teacher, but I've decided to let the word of God speak for itself as God intended (1 John 2:27). The hearers will need to have ears and those that want to see will require eyes (Deu 29:4; Rom 11:8; Job 42:5-6; Rev 3:18). As you've written, its of primary importance to examine the Word of God for what it has to say........rather than quoting buzz words, religious slogans and electronic gurus from YouTube and Facebook. Truth is that which is consistent what what is. - dictionary definition The problem I've encountered here is that folks addicted to their preconceived slogans refuse to even admit to definitions of common words. This is an indicator of doctrinal manipulation. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with allreadiness of mind and searched the Scriptures daily to see whether those things were so. - Acts 17:11 that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited October 2, 2019 by George Removed unnecessary paragraph that was unedifying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted October 2, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,209 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, theInquirer said: No, I believe it. . . it's just that when the devil hits me with doubts against it, I have to have something other than it to seek a solution from. When Jesus was 'hit' by doubts from the devil, HE went back to the Word and quoted it to the tempter's face. Read the accounts of Jesus' temptation in the gospels. You should also note that the devil did not depart on the first use of scripture, but had to be told to buzz off several times. You will NEVER find a magic spell or easy way out of doubt or temptation. Neither will you ever find a more effective resource against it than the Bible. Use the Bible to affirm what you ought to do, then turn your back on what you ought not do. If it was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me......... and you. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited October 2, 2019 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhchristian Posted October 2, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 136 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,488 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 1,325 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, choir loft said: When people persist in their religious dogma and refuse to even discuss or admit the meaning of common words they make others twice as fit for hell as they are themselves. They inevitably do not search the word, but go back to YouTube to quote Rev. Bovine Excrement. I Am drawing attention to this for the moderators. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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