JOHN 20:23 IS NOT FOR THE CHURCH TODAY

[douge]

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

This was spoken to the disciples; there is nothing in this verse that could substantiate applying this to the church, the body of Christ today.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The time frame of this is the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God consists of a heavenly and earthly component (1 Chronicles 29:11). The earthly kingdom is in view here based on Matthew 16:19 saying it is on earth. During the earthly kingdom Peter will be given power to remit sins just as the other disciples.

[johnthebaptist]

4 hours ago, douge said:

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

This was spoken to the disciples; there is nothing in this verse that could substantiate applying this to the church, the body of Christ today.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The time frame of this is the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God consists of a heavenly and earthly component (1 Chronicles 29:11). The earthly kingdom is in view here based on Matthew 16:19 saying it is on earth. During the earthly kingdom Peter will be given power to remit sins just as the other disciples.

My Bible (RSV) says it like this: 

“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." 

So if someone comes up and kicks me in the shin every day, I don’t have to forgive him till he stops.

 

[JTC]

1 hour ago, johnthebaptist said:

My Bible (RSV) says it like this: 

“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."                                                 So if someone comes up and kicks me in the shin every day, I don’t have to forgive him till he stops.

Well jtb, I'd say no, that isn't what this means. I don't even see how you get that from this.

    However, this time I agree with douge, this doesn't apply to us. I certainly don't think it means what the Catholic priests do in their confession rituals are correct neither. I will also admit that unless God gives me a revelation of that verse I might never know exactly what it means.  But it doesn't mean we don't have to forgive a person unless they stop a certain offense.

   When we forgive another for offending us we benefit the most by doing that. Staying angry usually hurts ourselves the most.                                                                                   If someone was constantly kicking me in the shin my focus should be on finding ways to prevent it.

That was actually a poor example for this verse.

[johnthebaptist]

21 minutes ago, JTC said:

Well jtb, I'd say no, that isn't what this means. I don't even see how you get that from this.

    However, this time I agree with douge, this doesn't apply to us. I certainly don't think it means what the Catholic priests do in their confession rituals are correct neither. I will also admit that unless God gives me a revelation of that verse I might never know exactly what it means.  But it doesn't mean we don't have to forgive a person unless they stop a certain offense.

   When we forgive another for offending us we benefit the most by doing that. Staying angry usually hurts ourselves the most.                                                                                   If someone was constantly kicking me in the shin my focus should be on finding ways to prevent it.

That was actually a poor example for this verse.

I believe it is telling us that it is up to us whether or not we forgive sins. When someone repents of their sin, it is wise to forgive them, if we expect the Lord to forgive us for our sins. Still, if someone is constantly attacking you, it is okay to protect yourself. Forgiveness can come later.

[saved34]

Agreed. The Apostles were given special gifts from God. These men could heal people just by their shadows. Paul said he turned some brothers over to satan to learn not to blaspheme. They raised the dead. God allowed them to do these “special” miracles to establish Christianity.

Act 19:11  God did extraordinary miracles through Paul,

Act 19:12  so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

Look at Peter with Ananias and  Sapphire. They dropped dead after he confronted them. The Apostles were special, which is why it is not wise to try and replicate what God did through them. There was a specific purpose behind it.

 

Rom 15:18  I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done—

Rom 15:19  by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.

 

[douge]

6 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

My Bible (RSV) says it like this: 

“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." 

So if someone comes up and kicks me in the shin every day, I don’t have to forgive him till he stops.

 

But under law if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15)

[douge]

6 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

My Bible (RSV) says it like this: 

“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." 

So if someone comes up and kicks me in the shin every day, I don’t have to forgive him till he stops.

 

There is an element of repentance involved (Luke 17:3)

[johnthebaptist]

4 minutes ago, douge said:

But under law if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15)

Back up three verses: 

And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors. Matt 6:12 RSV 

The Lord will forgive us in the same manner we forgive others. If you want the Lord to forgive you before you repent, go ahead and forgive other people before they repent. (I’m not sure he will, but you can give it a try.) If you are content if the Lord only forgives you after you repent, then it would seem to me you don’t have to forgive until people repent.

[createdequal]

12 hours ago, douge said:

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

This was spoken to the disciples; there is nothing in this verse that could substantiate applying this to the church, the body of Christ today.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The time frame of this is the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God consists of a heavenly and earthly component (1 Chronicles 29:11). The earthly kingdom is in view here based on Matthew 16:19 saying it is on earth. During the earthly kingdom Peter will be given power to remit sins just as the other disciples.

this sounds Catholic.

Catholics say that this is Jesus giving the power of absolution (forgiveness/remittance) to the 12.

then there is Jesus saying (when the Jews criticized him for forgiving someone's sins) "Which is easier to say 'Get up and w alk' or 'your sins are forgiven'"

[createdequal]

5 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

I believe it is telling us that it is up to us whether or not we forgive sins. When someone repents of their sin, it is wise to forgive them, if we expect the Lord to forgive us for our sins. Still, if someone is constantly attacking you, it is okay to protect yourself. Forgiveness can come later.

well, it can come at the same time, the same time you are moving 100 miles away or whatever---

I get so angry @ some people and their evil sometimes that I would like to drop kick them into Hell NOW

but I try to separate the sin (which I will never condone) from the sinner (a human being who could repent and change)