The Seven Heads of Daniel 7 and Rev. 17

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26 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Rome has nothing to do with the end of the age prophecy. The iron kingdom is not named and Rome did not succeed Greece of Alexander. 

Really?

True, the iron kingdom is not named, but to say that it is not Rome contradicts history.

Rome followed Greece to rule over the people of Israel, there is no gap in the prophetic time line.

The iron nation began as Rome and ends as Rome without changing the iron into a different substance/nation.  The iron is invaded by the clay, but the iron remains as Rome even to the end.

Four generals ruled after Alexander, but the brass was still Greece.

There are no gaps in the time line of the statue in Dan. 2.

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Rome has everything to do with the prophecies, it is the beast nation and the Antichrist.

The destroyers of Jerusalem in 70 AD., and the murderer of Israel for 2000 years. 

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You may believe that the Rev is mostly future, but it is almost all past at this time, 1900 years later.

 

[Sister]

56 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Inaccurate. The Diadochi are Greece (Macedonia), Egypt, Asia Minor, Mideast.

Rome was barely more than state in 330 BC, fighting for its life with local tribes and factions in Italy. 

Yes, not straight away of course.

[Sister]

To clarify - when Rome became a powerful empire.  It took time.

Rome is the iron legs re the statue in Daniel chapter 2.

 

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8 minutes ago, Sister said:

To clarify - when Rome became a powerful empire.  It took time.

Rome is the iron legs re the statue in Daniel chapter 2.

 

OK,  

First look and see that there are no gaps in the time line of the iron nation/empire.

Then see how the iron is mixed with clay and then divides.

Especially look and see that the toes do not come together again, to become as large as the legs at the beginning of the iron.

Instead of growing larger the toes end.

When the toes end, it means that the people of Israel are restored to Jerusalem.

Remember that the statue began when the people of Israel lost control of Jerusalem to Babylon.

The statue ends when Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem (1967).

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Nebuchadnezzar is the first to conquer Jerusalem and the destroy the temple. 

As God revealed His plan of restoration starting at the Garden, Satan responded.  At first, all Satan knew was that it would come through the seed of a woman.  So, he set in motion a plan to destroy the seed of women through the sons of God marrying the daughters of men.  Then came the flood.  Then God revealed to Abraham that through his seed the nations would be blessed, then Isaac, then Jacob.  Satan then focused on the sons of Israel by subjugating them.  It began with Egypt and then Assyria.  Then God revealed that the Lion would come from the tribe of Judah.

The Revelation 12 narrative shows Satan with seven heads ready to destroy the manchild when born.  The heads correspond to kingdoms used to subjugate the children of Israel.  After the seed of Abraham was born of a woman, Satan himself tried to destroy Jesus by entering Judas, the only recorded time that he has entered a human.

I don't deny this is the truth. It's just not relevant to the identification of the Iron Kingdom, nor the relation of the Iron Kingdom to the fourth beast and the little horn that is said to come from the four notable horns.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Diaste

[Diaste]

25 minutes ago, Sister said:

To clarify - when Rome became a powerful empire.  It took time.

Rome is the iron legs re the statue in Daniel chapter 2.

 

The rule over Israel is not the relevant factor in the identification of the Iron Kingdom. If that were the case then Islam qualifies as well. Even Nazi Germany could be construed to be the subjugater of Israel.

It's the lineage of the horns that rose from the goat; four notable horns then one that rises from them. Those four horns are Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucus and Ptolemy. None were in Italy. None ruled Rome. The Little Horn must come from Greece, Asia Minor, Egypt or the Mideast. The statue in Daniel 2 mirrors the 4 beasts of Dan 7 and the amalgamation of 3 of the 4 beasts in Rev 13; with the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns as the 4th beast of Dan 7, and therefore the little horn of Dan 8 and the Iron Kingdom of Dan 2. 

We must look elsewhere for the ID of the Iron Kingdom.

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Really?

True, the iron kingdom is not named, but to say that it is not Rome contradicts history.

Rome followed Greece to rule over the people of Israel, there is no gap in the prophetic time line.

After Alexander died the Grecian Empire was split into a thousand satrapies. Over a relatively short amount of time four of Alexander's Generals consolidated the former Grecian Empire. By 300 BC Seleucus ruled from the Mediterranean to the Indus, including the Levant, and therefore Israel. Yes, it's unbroken. It's Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Seleucus. The Iron Kingdom comes from the Mideast and the Seleucid Empire and only Islam fits.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

The iron nation began as Rome and ends as Rome without changing the iron into a different substance/nation.  The iron is invaded by the clay, but the iron remains as Rome even to the end.

Four generals ruled after Alexander, but the brass was still Greece.

And Greece is not Rome, that's in Italy.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

There are no gaps in the time line of the statue in Dan. 2.

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Rome has everything to do with the prophecies, it is the beast nation and the Antichrist.

The destroyers of Jerusalem in 70 AD., and the murderer of Israel for 2000 years. 

---------------

You may believe that the Rev is mostly future, but it is almost all past at this time, 1900 years later.

 

History tells us it was more than likely Syrian forces fighting with the Romans due to treaties between Rome and Syria that set fire to the Temple initially, disobeying orders from Titus to preserve the city and the Temple. Dan 9 says, "the people...will destroy the city and the sanctuary." 

It's unusual people will discount the evidence that Rome is long dead and gone but Islam is alive and thriving, and still demand Rome will rise again, under any number of pseudonyms.

[abcdef]

17 minutes ago, Diaste said:

After Alexander died the Grecian Empire was split into a thousand satrapies. Over a relatively short amount of time four of Alexander's Generals consolidated the former Grecian Empire. By 300 BC Seleucus ruled from the Mediterranean to the Indus, including the Levant, and therefore Israel. Yes, it's unbroken. It's Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Seleucus. The Iron Kingdom comes from the Mideast and the Seleucid Empire and only Islam fits.

And Greece is not Rome, that's in Italy.

History tells us it was more than likely Syrian forces fighting with the Romans due to treaties between Rome and Syria that set fire to the Temple initially, disobeying orders from Titus to preserve the city and the Temple. Dan 9 says, "the people...will destroy the city and the sanctuary." 

It's unusual people will discount the evidence that Rome is long dead and gone but Islam is alive and thriving, and still demand Rome will rise again, under any number of pseudonyms.

Rome is not dead, the Roman Empire has been alive and is alive, living in the Vatican right now.

The sea beast died when the Roman Empire fell, but the religion of Rome, Caesar worship, continued with some power after that as the earth beast image of the empire.

The beast empire has now crawled out of the abyss (1929) and has deceived the nations into surrounding Jerusalem and destroying them.

Islam is the kings of the east from across the Euphrates, they have Israel and Jerusalem surrounded right now.

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Who is ruling over Jerusalem right now? Israel.

Jerusalem was restored to Israel in 1967 ending the time of the statue in Dan. 2.

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If you say that the iron is Islam, you are faced with a 700 year gap in the statue, when there is no gap.

 

[Diaste]

 

2 hours ago, Sister said:

So the heads on the beast in Revelation just show the overall picture of these kingdoms from the first to the last.  In Rev 17, it is revealed that these 7 heads are 7 'mountains' on which the woman sits.  'Mountains' represent "kingdoms.  So the 7 'kings' represent kingdoms, because each kingdom had more than one king ruling during their reign.

I understand the logic. Been hearing this for 4 decades. Let's look:

7 “Why are you so amazed?” said the angel. “I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and ten horns.

The angel will reveal this. Not doctrines or books or rhetoric; the angel.

8 The beast that you saw—it was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be.

Pretty self explanatory. No dispute here.

9 This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

Here's where it gets sticky. There is no mention of mountain=kingdom, that is an assumption in this angelic interpretation. I'm sure mountains represent kingdoms in some passages but here the angel specifies: "The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits." The word here, 'oros', is a literal mountain. As far as I know every reference to 'mountain' in the NT is 'oros'. Here it looks like as much a location as anything. The contrast is, "There are also seven kings." It would appear the angel is likening the mountains to 7 kings more so that 7 kingdoms. I know the logic says, "Kings have to have kingdoms so the 7 mountains must be 7 kingdoms." That is not what the angel says. Maybe it's true but it's assumed and not proven here.

11 The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. 

Now we have an eighth king so I guess the mountains don't represent kings after all; the math is off. Ergo, the mountains probably don't represent kingdoms either.

12 The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast. 13 These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast.

It's worse now. The horns represent kings as specified by the angel. And they don't have a kingdom, they only receive power with the beast. This part of the revealing negates the idea that heads represent kings at all. 

2 hours ago, Sister said:

Daniel chapter 2 doesn't hint at Egypt or Assyria because those kingdoms are not in power anymore.  They have come and gone.  Daniel points forwards to the kingdoms that will come after Babylon, because he is prophesying future, and not giving a history lesson.

But you and everyone else that demand Rome is the Iron Kingdom do go back in history. The prophecy doesn't but that's ignored. If God, and His angel, and Daniel don't board the Wayback for a trip though time, why do you?

2 hours ago, Sister said:

Nebuchadnezzar is the FIRST kingdom on the statue (the head), because his dream concerned him as he was ruling at the time, ...but in reality, his kingdom was the 3rd great kingdom to come up, ...but like the others before him, his kingdom would not rule forever.

So without the kingdom of Egypt and Assyria, the interpretation of the seven heads in Rev would go way off course.  It's important for us to know because the Whore has been ruling over all these kingdoms since the beginning.  This is when peoples and small nations started trading merchandise with each other, and of course the leading empires, would desire and acquire most of the world's wealth.

 

As shown above the heads do not represent kings, and by extension, kingdoms. Off course? By what standard? 

By the preconception it must be Rome based on the incompatibility of one commonality that is never brought up in the prophecies? Namely that these kingdoms ruled or subjugated Israel?

You know what is apparent from the prophecies? The line of succession in the same location and seat of power, Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, Alexander and the Seleucid Empire all ruled from Babylon in an unbroken line of succession. But lets just change that to some other location because it's just too easy. Or maybe to scary? Know what other Empire ruled the same area? Islam. Rome was never based in the Mideast.

 

[Diaste]

5 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Rome is not dead, the Roman Empire has been alive and is alive, living in the Vatican right now.

Not even close to an equivalency. 

5 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The sea beast died when the Roman Empire fell, but the religion of Rome, Caesar worship, continued with some power after that as the earth beast image of the empire.

The beast empire has now crawled out of the abyss (1929) and has deceived the nations into surrounding Jerusalem and destroying them.

Islam is the kings of the east from across the Euphrates, they have Israel and Jerusalem surrounded right now.

The first is pretty outlandish claim. Perhaps you should do some research into the Empire and the Church.

The second is...idk...strange? Any proof?

Number 3 isn't correct in the slightest. Islam began in Saudi Arabia, west and south of the Euphrates, and spread in all directions.

5 minutes ago, abcdef said:

 

If you say that the iron is Islam, you are faced with a 700 year gap in the statue, when there is no gap.

 

Seleucus came directly after Alexander and the kingdom lasted from 300-63 BC. Which means during that time Seleucus and not Rome ruled the Levant. This is the unbroken chain as the prophecy foretold. The gap is that Rome did not rule in the Levant for over 2 centuries after Alexander. Daniel 11 follows the Diadochi and the Seleucid empire right to the willful king which is the beast. Clearly not Rome.