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The Seven Heads of Daniel 7 and Rev. 17


iamlamad

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13 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

Glad you opened up this topic. Now a `head` in scripture represents a `leader.` In Dan. 7 there is only one beastly power mentioned with `four heads. ` This denotes that that kingdom/Federation started with 4 leaders. Looking at those beastly powers we see that they have emerged in recent history.

1. Lion with eagle`s wings - UK & USA

2. Bear - Soviet Russia.

3. Leopard - EU. (It was formally established by the Treaty of Paris & signed by four authorities - France, West Germany, Italy & Benelux. (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg.)

The 7 heads/leaders mentioned in Rev. 17 also denotes leaders.

`They are seven kings/leaders. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. ` (Rev. 17: 10)

The context there is in the first part of the trib, and these seven leaders are progressive. I believe some have already come & gone as leaders of the Global Government, (G 20 etc) 

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

I'm not disagreeing with any of the above. I'm curious if you believe we are living in and witnessing the shaping up of the end times? If so, what global power is shaping up the coming global events; as in what role do you see the United Nations playing in the one world order?

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1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hi Marilyn,

I'm not disagreeing with any of the above. I'm curious if you believe we are living in and witnessing the shaping up of the end times? If so, what global power is shaping up the coming global events; as in what role do you see the United Nations playing in the one world order?

Hi Dennis,

So glad you asked. I am putting together some notes on that very topic and will post them in my blog area very soon. I also may post some in Eschatology.

regards, Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

Glad you opened up this topic. Now a `head` in scripture represents a `leader.` In Dan. 7 there is only one beastly power mentioned with `four heads. ` This denotes that that kingdom/Federation started with 4 leaders. Looking at those beastly powers we see that they have emerged in recent history.

1. Lion with eagle`s wings - UK & USA

2. Bear - Soviet Russia.

3. Leopard - EU. (It was formally established by the Treaty of Paris & signed by four authorities - France, West Germany, Italy & Benelux. (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg.)

The 7 heads/leaders mentioned in Rev. 17 also denotes leaders.

`They are seven kings/leaders. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. ` (Rev. 17: 10)

The context there is in the first part of the trib, and these seven leaders are progressive. I believe some have already come & gone as leaders of the Global Government, (G 20 etc) 

Marilyn.

I think the Beasts in chapter 7 are to resemble the empires represented by the great image of chapter 2. nebuchadnezzar was the head of God and he was represented by a lion. The silver was Medo-Persia as a bear, and Alexander the Great as the leopard with four wings and four heads: the wings and the leopard to represent Alexander and the speed in which his army moved and conquered, while the four heads represented his death and the four Generals that took over after His death. And of course the fierce beast was Rome, pointing to the iron legs of the image.  Yet, this is a vision for the end. So I believe Daniel is telling us that these land areas today will figure greatly in how things line up for the 70th week. Without a doubt, Iraq and Iran will be players.

One head was seen to receive a deadly wound. Iraq most certain received a deadly wound, As she was conquered and Saddam, the king, was put to death.  

The woman riding the beast is most certainly referring to Jerusalem during the time the Beast and False prophet are deceiving the world from that city. 

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4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I think the Beasts in chapter 7 are to resemble the empires represented by the great image of chapter 2. nebuchadnezzar was the head of God and he was represented by a lion. The silver was Medo-Persia as a bear, and Alexander the Great as the leopard with four wings and four heads: the wings and the leopard to represent Alexander and the speed in which his army moved and conquered, while the four heads represented his death and the four Generals that took over after His death. And of course the fierce beast was Rome, pointing to the iron legs of the image.  Yet, this is a vision for the end. So I believe Daniel is telling us that these land areas today will figure greatly in how things line up for the 70th week. Without a doubt, Iraq and Iran will be players.

One head was seen to receive a deadly wound. Iraq most certain received a deadly wound, As she was conquered and Saddam, the king, was put to death.  

The woman riding the beast is most certainly referring to Jerusalem during the time the Beast and False prophet are deceiving the world from that city. 

Hi iamlamad,

God deals with world governments NOT land areas, as `The earth is the Lord`s...` (Ps. 24:1) God deals with how those given authority use it, `You have been weighed in the balances and found wanting..` (Dan. 5: 27)  God says this to the king of Babylon. And every other world ruler - Medes & Persians, Greece & Rome have ALL been judged by God and are no more.

The land area of those empires do not cover the global government of today. Governments are who God will judge, not a `land area.`

As to Jerusalem, can you tell me what of Jerusalem made the nations `drunk?`  (Rev. 17: 2) Especially as most of the world do not look favourably upon Israel.

Marilyn.

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It's early, forgive me in advance if i'm terse.

Egypt, Assyria and Rome do not have any place in the context of this discussion. This conclusion for Egypt, Assyria and Rome is based on faulty logic forced into fragment of a sentence consisting of two words; "one is", then ignoring the bulk of evidence extant concerning this topic.

The Fourth beast is an iteration of Islam and is represented in the feet and toes of clay and iron. Not Rome. 

It's funny how we deny the evidence. Rome is long dead while Islam boasts nearly 2 billion adherents, today. In 2019. So yeah, it makes perfect sense God means Rome when Islam as a power and a people and an ideology has never ceased. Diminished for a time, but alive and well and vast in scope infiltrating every country. Waiting for the Madhi. Ready to take over the world. 

Rome, right....

 

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On 9/30/2019 at 2:17 PM, dhchristian said:

Iamlamad,

I think a lot of the confusion comes from trying to lump visions together like this. I Know for Rev. 17 I come up with Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, MedoPersia, Greece as the five past empires from John's perspective. Rome is when John received the vision, and is therefore the sixth. The seventh is future from John, and the Eighth is of the seven, and IS NOT NOW meaning Rome is excluded and so is the seventh. That is how I read the passage in Revelation. I Believe the seventh is the kingdom of the Antichrist, and the eighth is the revived Assyrian empire. 

Daniels Statue vision shows Babylon as the head of Gold, Medopersia as the chest and arms of Silver, Greece was belly and thighs of Brass, Rome was his legs of iron, and the feet of iron mixed with clay is  mystery. Iron is associated with Weaponry and military might, Clay is representative of People made of Clay. So this kingdom will be large, and this is the cause of its weakness. 

Daniel 7 on the other hand describes four beasts coming out of the sea. The first a lion with wings of an Eagle. The second a Bear, the third a leopard with four wings of a foul and the fourth beast with the little horn. In My Opinion this vision is describing the 20th century Kingdoms. England is the lion, and the eagle Wings are the U.S.A. (clipped in 1776) The wings being plucked and standing like a man refers to the transfer of Power from England to the U.S.A. during WW1. the bear is communist Russia. Which came into being in 1917 and took control of the Balkan nations, the three ribs. The Leopard is Nazi Germany which rose to power in 1933. the Fourth beast being the antichrist Kingdom. This Antichrist Kingdom is the seventh head in the rev. 17 vision, the eight being a revived Assyrian Kingdom. This is why I say the Antichrist Kingdom is diverse from the Beast that rises out of the pit.

that is my take anyway. The three visions do have some parallels and are yet distinct, and we must analyze them distinctly and then see where they join together.

Here is a link with the beasts of Daniel 7 described Like I do. http://christianmediaresearch.com/cmc-56.html

I Did not read the entire link just the part that sums the first three kingdoms.

  

 

 

Correct.....Daniel was shown the coming 5 Beasts {counting the Little Horn/Anti-Christ who REVIVES the Dead Beast by Conquering Israel/Mediterranean Sea Region once again. The bible is about God's Relationship with Israel. Thus the Beasts over them are shown down through history, until God {the Author of the bible} says Israel are as DEAD MEN'S BONES unto him for nigh 2000 years, just as Ezekiel prophesied in chapter 37. So once Israel is born again or comes alive again unto God, and after the Rapture........when Israel is once again Conquered along with the rest of the Mediterranean Sea Region, this will be the first time since Rome that Israel were Beasted over along with this same power {Demonic Beast Power/Apollyon} ruling the whole Mediterranean Sea Region. 

So Daniel is LOOKING FORWARD from his time to the coming 5 Beasts.

John is looking BACKWARDS to all 7 of the PREVIOUS BEASTS. Its just that simple. Even when they are mentioned in Rev. 13, we see the Leopard first, then the Bear and lastly the Lion. It's REVERSED. John is looking back through time. Daniel is looking forward. 

Edited by Revelation Man
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11 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

My thoughts on Revelation 17:3 are not conclusive and just an opinion and guess so far: 

The woman [the harlot] riding the beast is the religious system leader, a church-state system where the church leader is in charge of the Antichrist for awhile. I take the seven heads as a location, the city that sits on seven hills, Rome. Horns in the Bible usually represent 'power' or nations or countries. I personally suspect these ten horns represent a ten nation confederacy, or ten global economic trading zones like the United Nations has established. I believe the United Nations is playing a major end time role shaping up this one world global system; it's very apparent with their stated goals and "Agenda's" they have implemented. 

Taken in context, there's little doubt in my mind the "woman" and harlot is the so called 'one true church', Roman Catholicism, and it has a vicar of Christ, a holy father, full of abominations, etc. The seven heads I'll assume are the seven leaders (kings) of those ten nations or economic zones? Three of those ten will be taken out and destroyed by the Antichrist for rebelling I assume.

Anyway, there are so many opinions on the interpretations, it's hard to confirm whom is right. One thing is for sure, each day that passes, scripture seems to be popping to life in the news.

This is not a guess brother, you are following men's traditions that have been around for 50 years at least. You might be "GUESSING" that this is the correct answer, but its not. 

The 7 Hills can't be on ONE CITY, because its the 7 Powers who ruled over Israel/Mediterranean Sea Region. The Kingdoms being REDUCED to Kings has ONE PURPOSE, to show that the Last Beast will be a MAN.........Not a Kingdom like the others, just like Rev. 13 says, the number of the "Beast" is then number of a MAN {666}. God is 777, humans are 666........its a Human Being, not a Kingdom........BUT WHY ?

Because the Last Beast will be the ONLY BEAST of them all who has ONE MAN who both ARISES and FALLS as the Beast. That is why the 7 Kingdoms are REDUCED to Kings who Fall, thus the Last Beast will be one who ARISES and then also one who FALLS and is cast into hell fire just like Dan. 7:11 says and just like Rev. 19:20 says. 

The reason people get Revelation wrong is they don't understand, you can't go down proper roads with BAD ESCHATOLOGY. 

The Harlot = ALL FALSE RELIGION of ALL TIME.

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's early, forgive me in advance if i'm terse.

Egypt, Assyria and Rome do not have any place in the context of this discussion. This conclusion for Egypt, Assyria and Rome is based on faulty logic forced into fragment of a sentence consisting of two words; "one is", then ignoring the bulk of evidence extant concerning this topic.

The Fourth beast is an iteration of Islam and is represented in the feet and toes of clay and iron. Not Rome. 

It's funny how we deny the evidence. Rome is long dead while Islam boasts nearly 2 billion adherents, today. In 2019. So yeah, it makes perfect sense God means Rome when Islam as a power and a people and an ideology has never ceased. Diminished for a time, but alive and well and vast in scope infiltrating every country. Waiting for the Madhi. Ready to take over the world. 

Rome, right....

 

I suppose it depends on your view? Constantine turned Rome into a church / state system, the state part wilted into obscurity, but the church part [RCC] continued on and thrives today. Last check, Catholicism is the world's largest religion with 1.6 billion followers, closely followed by Islam with 1.4 billion followers. That's close to half the globes population. 

Traditional scholarship has mostly maintained as you know, that the feet and toes represent European nations and there loose association. We can already see that with their borders, defense pacts, talk about a European Army and the Euro, etc., it's unstable with Brexit as an example. It seems to nicely fit scripture. I suspect it is even possible the ten toes could represent the 'ten' global economic zones the United Nations has divided the world into, and their leaders? It appears to me the U.N. is a key player in shaping up end time events with their "Agendas".

However and with that said; I've been reading and closely studying some modern scholarship, that like you said, places Islam as the legs, feet and toes. One leg representing Shia and the other Sunni, the two major branches loosely allied depending on the cause. They hate each other but they hate the Jews and true Christians even worse. I have to say, I've found no holes in their argument and it fits nicely also. 

I've always firmly believed the Bible was referring to European nations. With the advent of ecumenism and the Pope signing agreements with the Muslim's, and trying to bring all religion under one umbrella, back to the 'one true church', it's getting interesting. No doubt Islam is and will be playing a major role in end time events. I have changed some of my firm views to just watching the pieces fall into place and not be dogmatic with my interpretations. However the Lord accomplishes His will and the players involved; we definitely see the moving and shaking taking place in our very own lifetimes. 

Edited by Dennis1209
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2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

This is not a guess brother, you are following men's traditions that have been around for 50 years at least. You might be "GUESSING" that this is the correct answer, but its not. 

The 7 Hills can't be on ONE CITY, because its the 7 Powers who ruled over Israel/Mediterranean Sea Region. The Kingdoms being REDUCED to Kings has ONE PURPOSE, to show that the Last Beast will be a MAN.........Not a Kingdom like the others, just like Rev. 13 says, the number of the "Beast" is then number of a MAN {666}. God is 777, humans are 666........its a Human Being, not a Kingdom........BUT WHY ?

Because the Last Beast will be the ONLY BEAST of them all who has ONE MAN who both ARISES and FALLS as the Beast. That is why the 7 Kingdoms are REDUCED to Kings who Fall, thus the Last Beast will be one who ARISES and then also one who FALLS and is cast into hell fire just like Dan. 7:11 says and just like Rev. 19:20 says. 

The reason people get Revelation wrong is they don't understand, you can't go down proper roads with BAD ESCHATOLOGY. 

The Harlot = ALL FALSE RELIGION of ALL TIME.

 

 

 

 

 

Why do you suppose words like; biblical 'exegesis', eschatology and hermeneutics were added to the American lexicon?

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7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

God deals with world governments NOT land areas, as `The earth is the Lord`s...` (Ps. 24:1) God deals with how those given authority use it, `You have been weighed in the balances and found wanting..` (Dan. 5: 27)  God says this to the king of Babylon. And every other world ruler - Medes & Persians, Greece & Rome have ALL been judged by God and are no more.

The land area of those empires do not cover the global government of today. Governments are who God will judge, not a `land area.`

As to Jerusalem, can you tell me what of Jerusalem made the nations `drunk?`  (Rev. 17: 2) Especially as most of the world do not look favourably upon Israel.

Marilyn.

Marilyn, OF COURSE it is kings and rulers of governments that are judged, but it is a fact, Nebuchadnezzar is dead. WHO then is the "king" of that land area today?  Darius of Persia that lost the war to Alexander is long gone, but who is "king" of that land area today? Land areas never change; what changes is who rules over them.

Case in point: when Jesus the ROCK strikes the feet of the image in Daniel 2, and the whole image turns to dust - It is not going to be a judgment then again Nebuchadnezzar for he will long gone when Jesus comes. Will that judgment then come upon who is king of "babylon" now?

Do you not understand that for the last 3.5 weeks of the Jewish 70th week, the entire world will be deceived by the Beast and False prophet FROM JERUSALEM? That is John's "great city." It will be their headquarters.

Edited by iamlamad
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