The Seven Heads of Daniel 7 and Rev. 17

[breathoflife]

Hi the pup, how did they let you in here? I have been trying to show apostate Jerusalem is the harlot to no avail.it is so refreshing

 have you seen any of the writing I have done here? I would be very interested in your take on them. Anyhow I am glad you are here it felt lonesome

 

[iamlamad]

29 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I know you recognize that the woman is the city of Jerusalem.  That is a good start.   Few people are able to recognize this.   I think it is because their whole schematic of eschatology is built upon a principally errant premise.   What is that errant premise?  It is "that the kings of the earth rule over the woman".  That's not what out says.   It says: 

Rev 17:18 KJV And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The woman is the one who reigns over the kings.   This is evident from within rev 17, when it shows the woman riding the beast.   [A point that has already been made,  but ignored].  Most of the kingdom's of the "7 kingdoms theory" in Rev 17 [and used elsewhere]  ruled over Jerusalem,  and not the other way around.   Two of the most noted is that of Rome and Babylonia.   

John clearly tells us the meaning of the 7 heads OF REV 17!  They are 7 mountains upon which the woman sits.   It is not about 7 kingdoms.   Jerusalem does indeed sit upon 7 hills,  aka mountains.   Though these mountains are most certainly not about kingdoms,  there may be a further inference that these do represent 7 kings.   John, via the angel,  tells us that there are "also 7 kings".  By telling us this as an "also", implies to us that the 7 heads DO NOT represent 7 kingdoms,  BUT that there are 7 kings,  and even an 8th one.   This should tell us that it is but one kingdom that these 7\8 kings represent. 

This kingdom,  in John's day,  WAS & IS NOT.  Daniel gives us precedence that a beast represents a single kingdom in a fourfold vision of Daniel 7.  These 4 beasts are 4 kings... One for each of four kingdoms that shall arise from the earth/ arah.  It is a gross misapplication of scripture to say that a beast represents more than one kingdom. 

The road to an errant understanding of these things begins with Daniel 2.  Most think that the image is a historical representation of time from Nebuchadnezzar until the times of the end,  a la, the times of the Gentiles.  It is not.   It is about what will happen in the latest days: 

Dan 2:28 KJV But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

What shall happen in the latter days? 

Dan 2:44 KJV And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

There are two important elements to this verse...a what and a when. 

1.  THE WHAT.   The setting up of the everlasting kingdom of God. 

2. THE WHEN.  In the days of THESE KINGS.

What is it that takes place at that time? 
Dan 2:34-35 KJV    Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The point that I want you to grasp is that the 4 kingdoms,  represented by the iron, clay,  brass,  silver and gold,  

ARE BROKEN TO PIECES TOGETHER! 

The "days of these kings" is referring to the heads of the 4 kingdoms of Daniel 2, of which Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold.   He is the beast of Daniel 7 represented by the Lion with eagle's wings.   The others are not as specifically identified in Dan 2 & 7.  The other 3 kings can be found in other parts of Daniel and the rest of the old testament. 

The great image of Daniel 2 represents the conglomerate kingdoms of the 10 horns of the 4th beast.   Daniel 7 says that this kingdom has teeth of iron and nails of brass.   This means that it will rule over the combined dominions of Rome and Greece [and Persia is contained within that area].  

When the kingdom of God is set up,  it will be preceded by "eating her flesh and burning with fire" of this great city,  Jerusalem.   It is at this time that the 4 kings will arise from the earth,  and with the help of the saints,  will consume the kingdom of tree beast.   The 10 kings will arise to give their kingdom unto this beast kingdom, for one hour,  "until the words of God are fulfilled".    This beast is a single kingdom and not 7 kingdoms that reigned over Jerusalem. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

I agree that both Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are referencing the time of the end, but they also reference what was future to John then and history to us now: the Gentile Kingdoms that ruled over Israel. I agree that the head gets turned to dust along with the toes. SAme with the rest of the image. That is why I think the empire of the Beast will include Iraq (Babylon), Iran (Persia) and probably all the Muslim nations that surround Israel.

"that the kings of the earth rule over the woman"  I agree, the woman rules over them because she deceives the entire world! She rules by deceiving them into thinking the Beast really is GOD. They all buy into that lie.  However, near the end, the world turns against the woman, Jerusalem, and Israel, and will be determined to wipe Israel off the map for good. Then they rule over her. Jerusalem will be burned. An earthquake will break her into three sections and a tenth part will fall.

I tend to disagree on mountains and kings: if there are kings, a king must have territory to rule over. I think John is only telling us there are 7 nations, each with a king. Daniel tells us the Little Horn will take out 3 nations out of 10, which would leave 7, and he becomes the 8th king - so his empire will be made up of 7 nations that used to be 10.

a beast represents a single kingdom in a fourfold vision of Daniel 7.  These 4 beasts are 4 kings...  I think Daniel makes it clear these 4 will be END TIMES kings with nations. The Little Horn is taken but the other three get to live for a while longer.

ARE BROKEN TO PIECES TOGETHER!   I agree: end time. But they also accurately showed the future Gentile nations - showing us the same land areas will be involved in the end - IMHO.

It is at this time that the 4 kings will arise from the earth,  and with the help of the saints,  will consume the kingdom of tree beast.   I don't know WHERE you get this. It sounds like myth. JESUS destroys the Kingdom of the Beast by first killing the Beast and False prophet and they in the sheep and goat judgment killing the rest - that is the few that are left alive at this time!

 

I don't think the ten kings that "throw in" with the beast for the final hour are in that image of Dan. 2. With that said, I don't think these 10 kings are the same ten kings of which the Little Horn will take out 3.

Edited October 4, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, breathoflife said:

Hi the pup, how did they let you in here? I have been trying to show apostate Jerusalem is the harlot to no avail.it is so refreshing

 have you seen any of the writing I have done here? I would be very interested in your take on them. Anyhow I am glad you are here it felt lonesome

 

Did you not understand? I have been saying for many moons here that the Mystery Babylon is the city of Jerusalem.  Do we now have 3 believers?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel 7:17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. 23 ‘The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth...

These are spiritual rulers in heavenly places. Only four heads are mentioned, not seven. If you presume each beast had a head, then the third beast in truth had a head, and that head had four more heads, making eight in total. But neither 7 nor 8 is the intent of the passage; just 4. The Greek Beast had four sub-rulers/heads, which were in no ways equivalent to the beasts themselves.

The Beast of Rev. 11, 13 and 17 ascends out of the Abyss, and is the origin/father of the seven lesser heads. That is, they derived their spirits from him/it, therefore being lesser in power, but of the same essence.

That is not what is  written: the leopard had 4 heads, not one plus 4.  It was first to represent Alexander the Great as the Leopard Beast, but later with the four Generals. But what will in represent in our future? I wish I knew. I can only guess that the Beast is going to resemble  Alexander in the SPEED in which he will conquer.  He will represent Persia in the power of his armies. He will represent Nebuchadnezzar in the total-ness of his rule. He ALONE rules. When He speaks, all jump - so to speak: his rule will be absolute.

Only one spirit comes out of the bottomless pit. The "destroyer" whom I think is Satan Himself. He must sometime go into the pit to come out of it. It is only a guess. No other evil spirit could be more of a destroyer than Satan.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, breathoflife said:

An Army of Locusts

2 Blow the trumpet in Zion;
    sound the alarm on my holy hill.

Let all who live in the land tremble,
    for the day of the Lord is coming.

 

The time is the Day of the Lord
 

It is close at hand—
²     a day of darkness and gloom,
    a day of clouds and blackness.
Like dawn spreading across the mountains
    a large and mighty army comes,
such as never was in ancient times

 

This army of demonic locust form an army unlike there has ever been and never will be again. if they are not the 200 million army then who are they? This is an army so huge and powerful that no other army in all of history can match them.   

 

  nor ever will be in ages to come.

³ Before them fire devours,
    behind them a flame blazes.
Before them the land is like the garden of Eden,
    behind them, a desert waste—
    nothing escapes them.
⁴ They have the appearance of horses;
    they gallop along like cavalry.
⁵ With a noise like that of chariots
    they leap over the mountaintops,
like a crackling fire consuming stubble,
    like a mighty army drawn up for battle.

⁶ At the sight of them, nations are in anguish;
    every face turns pale.
⁷ They charge like warriors;
    they scale walls like soldiers.
They all march in line,
    not swerving from their course.
⁸ They do not jostle each other;
    each marches straight ahead.
They plunge through defenses
    without breaking ranks.
⁹ They rush upon the city;
    they run along the wall.
They climb into the houses;
    like thieves they enter through the windows.

¹⁰ Before them the earth shakes,
    the heavens tremble,
the sun and moon are darkened,
    and the stars no longer shine.
¹¹ The Lord thunders
    at the head of his army;
his forces are beyond number,
    and mighty is the army that obeys his command.
The day of the Lord is great;
    it is dreadful.
    Who can endure it?

Agreed: this  passage is about the Day of the Lord. But who knows FOR SURE who or what this Joel army is? It is the same as the 200 million army? I doubt if anyone can prove that from scripture. And from the Joel passage, can anyone prove this is a satanic army? I don't think so.

[breathoflife]

I have to admit I believed on the roll you were just on you would have denied the day of the Lord except it is written there. Come on I really enjoy debating you but this whole take on Joel is weak. But I have more day of the Lord prophecies

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel 7:17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. 23 ‘The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth...

These are spiritual rulers in heavenly places. Only four heads are mentioned, not seven. If you presume each beast had a head, then the third beast in truth had a head, and that head had four more heads, making eight in total. But neither 7 nor 8 is the intent of the passage; just 4. The Greek Beast had four sub-rulers/heads, which were in no ways equivalent to the beasts themselves.

The Beast of Rev. 11, 13 and 17 ascends out of the Abyss, and is the origin/father of the seven lesser heads. That is, they derived their spirits from him/it, therefore being lesser in power, but of the same essence.

 

You didn't mention Revelation 12 so I thought perhaps you may have forgotten this detail, because it sure appears to me as if it is related.

 

Revelation 12: 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, breathoflife said:

¹¹ The Lord thunders
    at the head of his army;
his forces are beyond number,
    and mighty is the army that obeys his command.
The day of the Lord is great;
    it is dreadful.
    Who can endure it?

 

This verse makes it fairly clear this is not a demonic army, this is the rider on the white horse from Revelation 19.  The day of the Lord is all about God's judgement, your timing is off on this one.

God bless

[breathoflife]

The 10 heads-is easy to understand if we allow Scripture to say what it says. The prophet Zechariah  tells of the coming splitting of Israel into a divided kingdom. Why is this important? When she splits the northern kingdom of Israel has ten kingdoms and of that 10 3 have been plucked leaving 10 crowns but only 7  heads. Apostate Israel will be the Harlot riding the red beast having a kingdom with 7 heads and 10 crowns. 

[breathoflife]

the verse is actually showing God’s sovereign rule. Just as anti-christ as the Assyrian is said to be the instrument of the Lord’s judgment. It does not mean they Assyrian is used by God to deliver His judgement. But it is tricky. Do you have access to The Treasury of Scriptural knowledge available. Great book really helps studying they link verses from the beginning of there place in Scripture to its end. Also robertson’s Greek -English. The Lord comes from heaven with His angels.  These are the angels who have been locked Thee pit waiting the time of judgement.    

Edited October 4, 2019 by breathoflife