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Vicarious Law-keeping?


WordSword

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12 hours ago, Who me said:

The problem starts when a believe begins to imagine that there salvation has anything to do with them, their faith or actions.

It all starts in the heart.

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2 hours ago, Sower said:

What I posted happens to be the word of God.
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't put it on.
When I cannot convince someone with my understanding,
I use scripture, when appropriate.
Then, sometimes I need to 'just give it a rest'..........default_cool2.gif.273a96c9c8ab966d8c273ddca7f31c63.gif
Were in this together, Firm, the same team.

Yes, and I can post scripture that proves you wrong that you won't accept.  That is because both sides have their own interpretation of said scriptures.  That is why the different denominations disagree.

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1 hour ago, WordSword said:

Again, good points, because to unbelievers, those professing faith and arguing can appear false. But that's typical of unbelievers, to ever attempt to make believers appear hypocritical of our faith, because they are intimidated and threatened to see the truth genuinely practiced. I think an important note is that it's mostly when we are in disagreements because of our different understandings gives more opportunity to learn to disagree in a loving way, so they cannot avoid seeing us as Christ's disciples as we continue to learn and grow in the love of God for one another (Jhn 13:35).

 

I have never been part of any  church that teaches unconditional security.  The only churches in my area that teach that are Baptist.  I could see your point  better if I was on an island by myself disagreeing with OSAS, but at best the Christian church is divided, and it appears I am in the majority when you consider all Methodists, Wesleyans, Pentecostal Holiness, Church of God, Lutheran, Assemblies of God, all reject OSAS.  It is mostly a Baptist belief.

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Here is the reason that there is debate between both sides involved in the OSAS.......

It is not smart vs Dumb

It is  not a question of who has faith and who doesn’t 

It is  not a question of who knows the Bible and who doesn't

The Truth is, BOTH sides have their Chapter and Verse.Every now and then somebody will bring up a verse that  I have to admit, gets me scrambling for an answer ! But I always “ do” find an answer - at least to my mind.Others disagree .At least, nobody is guilty of pulling stuff out of thin air.So I can respect the views of the opposing side.....I could be persuaded by some of their strong arguments. I scratch my head more times than I would like to admit....lol...

Having said all of that , After studying both sides , I find myself in strong agreement with the late , great Bible Teacher, Peter Ruckman. He declared that he could preach for hours on each side and make for a convincing argument for either viewpoint.In the end he said that even though the opponents of OSAS had 200 verses to substantiate their views, those that believed in OSAS had twice as many , roughly 400 verses to prove that they were on the correct side in this debate.Ruckman went on to teach that ALL of the verses that may have “ seemed” to support non-OSAS viewers had one of two things in common— they were all taken out of context or were not directed to The Body Of Christ.All Of those verses could be argued with.Its hard to argue with the verses that the  OSAS crowd puts forward. I mean, how on Earth does one argue, much less get around a verse this clear—“ Anybody that asks to be saved WILL be saved .If I stood with the other side , that single verse would have me scrambling for a way to get around it. Times like this, seeing these simple Iron-Clad verses that no logical person can argue with always brings me back to the Reality Of OSAS, and I am very thankful that I do not have the task of trying to debate a verse that is not debatable .Despite much evidence to the contrary, I am gonna be saved because God will not break His Promise.He made the Promise— not me! Do you think he made a goof when He put the Onus to save on Himself.I think God is smarter than that .He takes all the responsibility , finishes the “ Good work that HE started” and “ Saves to the uttermost, ALL that come to Him by His Son”.........By taking all the responsibility , He gets all the Glory!He is still a very jealous God it seems— it works for me, how about you? God bless...

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21 hours ago, Firm Foundation said:

I would love for us all to move past this.  Focus on simply learning to follow Jesus.  The real born again believers should want that.  Wouldn't it be nice to stop with all the strife?

 

10 hours ago, Debp said:

So friend, who will take the first step?   Who will stop posting rebuttals to another member's posts?   That is the only way the strife will stop.

 

8 hours ago, Firm Foundation said:

I am suggesting everyone simply quit starting threads on it.  There must be a dozen, and stop turning every thread into OSAS. 

Why stop at not starting new threads on the subject?

Why aren't some members willing to just stop posting in threads of which they apparently disapprove?   I think it can be that some members like to argue or debate.   Also, with some members it can also become a source of pride.

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11 minutes ago, Debp said:

 

 

Why stop at not starting new threads on the subject?

Why aren't some members willing to just stop posting in threads of which they apparently disapprove?   I think it can be that some members like to argue or debate.   Also, with some members it can also become a source of pride.

We all believe we are standing against false doctrine.  That is why as long as these threads remain, both sides will argue.  I don't think it's pride on either side.

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1 hour ago, Firm Foundation said:

I have never been part of any  church that teaches unconditional security.  The only churches in my area that teach that are Baptist.  I could see your point  better if I was on an island by myself disagreeing with OSAS, but at best the Christian church is divided, and it appears I am in the majority when you consider all Methodists, Wesleyans, Pentecostal Holiness, Church of God, Lutheran, Assemblies of God, all reject OSAS.  It is mostly a Baptist belief.

In my 40 years of growth in the faith I've only started noticing only a couples churches out of about 20 I fellowshipped just within the last 15 that were uncertain about the doctrine. Even in all those years before the last 15, nearly all Christian radio programs and churches accepted OSAS, so to me nonacceptance of the doctrine is only recent in a general sense.  I have yet to see any Bible commentators (out of about a dozen I have used) that do not support the doctrine. The strongest commentator supporters are those circa late 1800's and prior.

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2 minutes ago, WordSword said:

In my 40 years of growth in the faith I've only started noticing only a couples churches out of about 20 I fellowshipped just within the last 15 that were uncertain about the doctrine. Even in all those years before the last 15, nearly all Christian radio programs and churches accepted OSAS, so to me nonacceptance of the doctrine is only recent in a general sense.  I have yet to see any Bible commentators (out of about a dozen I have used) that do not support the doctrine. The strongest commentator supporters are those circa late 1800's and prior.

You are not living in reality.  If you look at the reformers and look at the denominations and the people responsible for them, none held to OSAS as you teach, including Calvin.  You may be describing your experience, but mine is the exact opposite.  I haven't seen all the old commentaries, but I know the Matthew Henry Commentary doesn't teach OSAS. 

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13 minutes ago, WordSword said:

In my 40 years of growth in the faith I've only started noticing only a couples churches out of about 20 I fellowshipped just within the last 15 that were uncertain about the doctrine. Even in all those years before the last 15, nearly all Christian radio programs and churches accepted OSAS, so to me nonacceptance of the doctrine is only recent in a general sense.  I have yet to see any Bible commentators (out of about a dozen I have used) that do not support the doctrine. The strongest commentator supporters are those circa late 1800's and prior.

 

5 minutes ago, Firm Foundation said:

You are not living in reality.  If you look at the reformers and look at the denominations and the people responsible for them, none held to OSAS as you teach, including Calvin.  You may be describing your experience, but mine is the exact opposite.  I haven't seen all the old commentaries, but I know the Matthew Henry Commentary doesn't teach OSAS. 

I agree with WordSword.   I've been active with churches and friends with missionaries since 1972, all believed in eternal security.  Been to a non-denominational Bible college with hundreds of students and eternal security was believed.   

 

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Just now, Debp said:

 

I agree with WordSword.   I've been active with churches and friends with missionaries since 1972, all believed in eternal security.  Been to a non-denominational Bible college with hundreds of students and eternal security was believed.   

 

That just shows your circle.  What reformer or church founder taught OSAS?  I can show you the ones that didn't believe in OSAS, but none that did.

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