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should disgraced pastor Tullian Tchividjian (Billy Graham's grandson) be given a second chance?


Equippers

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i am just reading this article on Tullian Tchividjian planting a new church

https://www.christianpost.com/news/back-in-pulpit-after-scandal-tullian-tchividjian-insists-sex-with-former-congregants-was-not-abuse.html

the issue here appears to be he "allegedly" had affairs with multiple congregationers 

if i remember correctly, he might have denied some of them. it is hard to know what actually happened unless you are the people that is involved.

i don't know, i know from experience that we are all sinners, all of us are capable of lying under the right circumstances. I can't really say who is telling the truth, is it Tullian Tchividjian or some of his accusers.

but since it is Tullian's reputation that is at stake here, i tend to give him the benefit of the doubt

there is one key affair that is outlined in the article, that is with the a woman named Rachel Steele ( this is one affair that Tullian admit to)

base on what i read, Both Tullian and Rachel agreed they "both" wanted it.

they do differ on other aspects.

Rachel says Tullian gave marital advice (i am not sure exactly what this is as there is no elaboration) to her and her husband. Tullian says he did not serve in the formal "role" of a counselor.

Rachel Steele felt Tulian "groomed" her whereas Tullian assert he did not use his role to entice people into sexual relationship with him.

in Tulian defense here, i think is that only Tulian and God knows what he was thinking, the rest of us can only speculate, including Rachel Steele, though Rachel does have more information compares with the rest of us to help her make a conclusion at what Tullian might be thinking.

anyway, i strongly encourage you to read through the article and this other one

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/september/tullian-tchividjian-infidelity-pastoral-abuse-metoo-church.html

a word of warning on the second article whose link i shared above, the author in this article mentioned metoo movement which i think it is concerning, because as many of you know, metoo movement is problematic in many ways, one of which is every believer's accusation must be taken at face value and believed, rather than withhold one's judgement until a thorough and unbiased investigation has been conducted, and that a person is innocent until proven guilty. There are many other problem with metoo movement philosophy which i am sure many of you are familiar with, that is why i am alarmed that a "Christian" author would cite this movement and used it as part of her rationale for her argument.

i personally also agree with Tulian that only a person who messed his life up before can help others who mess up effectively.

so what do guys think, should he be given a second chance?

 

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Has he confess to all his adulteries? He is accused of having more than one relationship, so has he come clean to what ever board disciplines ministers in his church.

What of his own marriage?

If there are no more skeletons waiting to be revealed and if his marriage is sound.

I would want to know how he proposes avoiding falling into the same sin.

Then in my opinion it would be up to the members to decide whether to accept him back or not.

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Hi Equippers,

Whether he had an affair(s) and (consensual or unconsensual) he was married and committed adultery against his wife and should not be a pastor of a church.  I know he owned up to this affair and tried to justify it (wrong attitude), and he can also be forgiven by God (God knows his heart), but I would not personally go to his church.  People who have been entrusted by God with many abilities and responsibilities will be held to a higher standard on the last day.

  • Luke 12:48, "But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more."
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Zero tolerance policies were created by man. Forgiveness was created by God.

Many of our greatest generals suffered defeat at the hands of the enemy, but were given a second chance. They learned from their mistakes and grew to be great military commanders and statesmen. Pastors also can make mistakes when tempted by the enemy. You can tell when a general really wants to get back into a fight. George S. Patton for example. That guy was hungry to lead despite mistakes.

For some legacy preachers, I sometimes wonder if their hearts are really into it. It's become a family business. A pastor who is still on fire for Christ should be allowed to get back into the fight. Pastors need to be honest with themselves. Why are they in the ministry? If they are in it for all the right reasons, then asking for a second chance, forgiveness, and the opportunity to regain trust should be granted. If they are not in it for the right reasons, they should step down. If the congregants don't believe a pastor is sincere they can have him removed.

 

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5 hours ago, Equippers said:

i don't know, i know from experience that we are all sinners, all of us are capable of lying under the right circumstances

This is true, but we should expect  that certain sins and lies will disqualify us from certain positions.

if a person has a history of stealing money, they can expect forgiveness if they repent, but they cannot expect to gain employment at a bank.

Christ’s Church deserves so much better than this. What happened to the salt and the light of the earth?He is welcome in church, but he should be sitting in the pews.

i am currently reading through the Pennsylvania Grand Jury report and the Illinois Attorney General report about the priests who were abusing kids, and then forgiven,and let back in. I hope everyone reads it(even just read the 12 page introduction and you will be shocked).It shows how dangerous it is to let people with habitual behavior back into leadership positions in the church.

Tchividjian needs to step aside.

Research his brother. You will find what he has to say very interesting.

Edited by ReneeIW
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1 hour ago, Who me said:

Has he confess to all his adulteries? He is accused of having more than one relationship, so has he come clean to what ever board disciplines ministers in his church.

What of his own marriage?

If there are no more skeletons waiting to be revealed and if his marriage is sound.

I would want to know how he proposes avoiding falling into the same sin.

Then in my opinion it would be up to the members to decide whether to accept him back or not.

hello

you asked a very good question

i too agree the most fundamental thing here is has he confessed to all the adulteries, because full confession is part of true repentance. regardless whether or not he is in ministry or not

i guess we will never know the answer to that as the only person who know the full truth is the accusers and Tullian and God of course. but there are inconsistency in their answers, at least when it comes to some of the alleged affairs, as i understand.

Tullian and some of those women can't be both telling the truth

could Tullian be lying? yes. Could those women or at least some of those women be lying? yes\

when dealing with allegations such as those, one should be assumed innocent until proven guilty.

as far as i am aware of, no formal thorough investigations was ever carried out to verify those women's claims (please correct me if i am wrong here)

you know right now in my life i am dealing with a slander/smear campaign that is not true, and God knows it is not true.

that is why i am careful to assume Tullian's guilt. 

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3 minutes ago, ReneeIW said:

This is true, but we should expect  that certain sins and lies will disqualify us from certain positions.

if a person has a history of stealing money, they can expect forgiveness if they repent, but they cannot expect to gain employment at a bank.

Christ’s Church deserves so much better than this. What happened to the salt and the light of the earth?He is welcome in church, but he should be sitting in the pews.

i am currently reading through the Pennsylvania Grand Jury report and the Illinois Attorney General report about the priests who were abusing kids, and then forgiven,and let back in. I hope everyone reads it. It shows how dangerous it is to let people with habitual behavior back into leadership positions in the church.

Tchividjian needs to step aside.

Research his brother. You will find what he has to say very interesting.

i think you have a point, i think the emphasize here is on "certain sins" 

you know, years ago i was in this youth group where i was bullied and abused by the youth leader who was leading the group

he consistently use the power that come with his position to settle scores with me

he may have felt bad after those incidences, but he never changed his behaviour. which is a sign of non-genuine repentance

and everyone was making excuses for him, he also have a nasty but powerful mother who think everyone should give her son a free pass, if they don't, she would abuse the scriptures on forgiveness and resort to bullying tactics herself to force you to forgive ( or is it to give her son a free pass?)

the situation lasted a long time, until God finally stepped in Himself and removed him from the position Himself

as far as i am aware of, even after God removed him from the post, no one from that church took responsibility for anything.

and i don't think he and his mother fully accepted responsibility for anything either.

i think given the lack of genuine repentance on he and his mother's part, they should not be allowed to get back into ministry

but it is not mine call

i think his mother may still be in ministry somewhere.

there no justice, not even from God

but you know what, if this young showed true repentance and gave me a sincere apology (which he never done) and show he has changed his ways, i would gladly have forgiven him and i would think he should be allowed to be back into ministry again

but i don't think that will happen.

i think it is possible he is in ministry at this very moment. and that disgusts me

it also shows just how unjust God is by allowing bunch of human garbage remain in ministry

i am still angry by the lack of repentance and lack of consequences for that mother and son, so it is mine anger talking right now. 

so don't mind me.

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29 minutes ago, TraceMalin said:

Zero tolerance policies were created by man. Forgiveness was created by God.

Many of our greatest generals suffered defeat at the hands of the enemy, but were given a second chance. They learned from their mistakes and grew to be great military commanders and statesmen. Pastors also can make mistakes when tempted by the enemy. You can tell when a general really wants to get back into a fight. George S. Patton for example. That guy was hungry to lead despite mistakes.

For some legacy preachers, I sometimes wonder if their hearts are really into it. It's become a family business. A pastor who is still on fire for Christ should be allowed to get back into the fight. Pastors need to be honest with themselves. Why are they in the ministry? If they are in it for all the right reasons, then asking for a second chance, forgiveness, and the opportunity to regain trust should be granted. If they are not in it for the right reasons, they should step down. If the congregants don't believe a pastor is sincere they can have him removed.

 

i agree.

a pastor's motivation is paramount

but the key here is genuine repentance

genuine repentance involves more than just feeling bad, it involves a change in direction, a change in mentality and behaviour.

one can not keep using the argument of "whoops, i did it again" argument.

without genuine repentance, one should not be allowed back into ministry again, even if they have a passion for it.

 

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16 minutes ago, Equippers said:

it also shows just how unjust God is by allowing bunch of human garbage remain in ministry

I’m so sorry you had a bad experience in your church and that the church did not handle it appropriately, but please  don’t blame God for human behavior. And remember:

Galatians 6:7-9 King James Version (KJV)

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

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I couldn't care less.  I wouldn't go to his church.  Those who would deserve what they get.

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