What to make of "the rest of the Beasts" and "a season and a time."

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

Would love to share what I have been taught. As you so rightly point out that verse makes those beastly powers at the end of the Gentiles reign. So we look at the emblems - Heraldry. O.Neubecker, Director of the `International Academy of Heraldry` and foremost authority in this field, explains -

`The appearance of a lion as a heraldic beast by no means indicates that it forms part of the native fauna of that country; its use comes from the significance attributed to it. The lion is the symbol of Royal Sovereignty and the eagle the symbol of Imperial Power.`

In combination we have the initial clue to the identity of this first contemporary super power to emerge. A sovereign Monarchy which exercised imperialistic power over a substantial area of the world. ie. An empire ruled by a Monarch.

Further revelation was given to Daniel. `As I looked its wings were plucked off.` (Dan. 7: 4) There is a fascinating double reference in this.

a) The empire lost its capacity for imperialistic expansion.

b) Part of the empire became a separate nation with the eagle as its emblem.

`It was made to stand on two feet like a man; and the spirit of a man was given to it.` (Dan. 7: 4)

Here is transformation. Until now the outlook and operation had been that of a powerful beast, imperialistically conquering, dominating and colonising. Suddenly there is a remarkable change to the higher qualities of the spirit of man. In Political language, co-exiting in freedom, peace and equality with its former dominions. An empire becomes a Commonwealth of nations.

regards, Marilyn.

AT least one commentary shares this belief: I believe it is hinting of Nebuchadnezzar: He alone held ultimate power: on his word people lived or died. And for a while Babylon expanded, but then the time came they quit expanding. I am not sure the lost "capacity;" perhaps they lost the desire. Remember when Nebuchadnezzar became like a beast for I think 7 years?  Then finally he was "healed" and had the heart of a man again. ("The spirit of a man was given to it")  I think what this is telling us is that the land area of Babylon, with a future "king" will be a part of the Beast's kingdom.  Today that would be Iraq.  I don't think a separate nation. Just a very changed King. 

Thanks for answering!

Edited October 14, 2019 by iamlamad

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

AT least one commentary shares this belief: I believe it is hinting of Nebuchadnezzar: He alone held ultimate power: on his word people lived or died. And for a while Babylon expanded, but then the time came they quit expanding. I am not sure the lost "capacity;" perhaps they lost the desire. Remember when Nebuchadnezzar became like a beast for I think 7 years?  Then finally he was "healed" and had the heart of a man again. ("The spirit of a man was given to it")  I think what this is telling us is that the land area of Babylon, with a future "king" will be a part of the Beast's kingdom.  Today that would be Iraq.  I don't think a separate nation. Just a very changed King. 

Thanks for answering!

Hi iamlamad,

Now you are forgetting that the `beastly powers` are kingdoms and not a person. Note -

`The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all other kingdoms...` (Dan. 7: 23)

So we see that each beastly power is a kingdom, a Federation or super power in our terminology. Thus the details are not referring to Nebuchadnezzar but a contemporary super power. The description I wrote in my previous post speaks volumes as to what power that is.

Marilyn. 

[iamlamad]

37 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

Now you a forgetting that the `beastly powers` are kingdoms and not a person. Note -

`The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all other kingdoms...` (Dan. 7: 23)

So we see that each beastly power is a kingdom, a Federation or super power in our terminology. Thus the details are not referring to Nebuchadnezzar but a contemporary super power. The description I wrote in my previous post speaks volumes as to what power that is.

Marilyn. 

True, that is what it says, a 4th kingdom. But note this verse:

Dan. 7:¹² As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

I think they do refer to a kingdom, but they also represent a KING of a kingdom.  At this moment in time, Iraq (old Babylon) has no "king." However, things can change quickly these days!

details are not referring to Nebuchadnezzar but a contemporary super power  I would say a contemporary power (empire) and THE KING of that empire. Empires are nations don't have "lives" but kings do.

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

True, that is what it says, a 4th kingdom. But note this verse:

Dan. 7:¹² As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

I think they do refer to a kingdom, but they also represent a KING of a kingdom.  At this moment in time, Iraq (old Babylon) has no "king." However, things can change quickly these days!

details are not referring to Nebuchadnezzar but a contemporary super power  I would say a contemporary power (empire) and THE KING of that empire. Empires are nations don't have "lives" but kings do.

But the people of those empires have lives. Their rulership is taken away but the people of the countries live on.

So looking at what I posted further back regarding the `Lion and Eagle,` what super powers come to mind which had that background?

Establish that and we can move forward.

 

[dailyprayerwarrior]

The thread is awesome!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

But the people of those empires have lives. Their rulership is taken away but the people of the countries live on.

So looking at what I posted further back regarding the `Lion and Eagle,` what super powers come to mind which had that background?

Establish that and we can move forward.

 

I just don't think all the people of an empire are killed at once. I think therefore it just refer to the king. Of course, Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon, now Iraq.  I see Iraq as the one end time "head" that received a deadly wound. Saddam Hussein is no longer alive.

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I just don't think all the people of an empire are killed at once. I think therefore it just refer to the king. Of course, Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon, now Iraq.  I see Iraq as the one end time "head" that received a deadly wound. Saddam Hussein is no longer alive.

Can we do the three beastly powers first before we get to Islam?  This is what I wrote further back.

Let`s look at the emblems - Heraldry. O.Neubecker, Director of the `International Academy of Heraldry` and foremost authority in this field, explains -

`The appearance of a lion as a heraldic beast by no means indicates that it forms part of the native fauna of that country; its use comes from the significance attributed to it. The lion is the symbol of Royal Sovereignty and the eagle the symbol of Imperial Power.`

In combination we have the initial clue to the identity of this first contemporary super power to emerge. A sovereign Monarchy which exercised imperialistic power over a substantial area of the world. ie. An empire ruled by a Monarch.

Further revelation was given to Daniel. `As I looked its wings were plucked off.` (Dan. 7: 4) There is a fascinating double reference in this.

a) The empire lost its capacity for imperialistic expansion.

b) Part of the empire became a separate nation with the eagle as its emblem.

`It was made to stand on two feet like a man; and the spirit of a man was given to it.` (Dan. 7: 4)

Here is transformation. Until now the outlook and operation had been that of a powerful beast, imperialistically conquering, dominating and colonising. Suddenly there is a remarkable change to the higher qualities of the spirit of man. In Political language, co-exiting in freedom, peace and equality with its former dominions. An empire becomes a Commonwealth of nations.

 

So these are two powers that work together, the `lion and the eagle,` and they are very easily recognisable today. Who are they?

 

Marilyn.

 

[luigi]

On 10/7/2019 at 7:06 PM, iamlamad said:

Considering this verse:

Dan. 7:¹² As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

This verse seems to make this chapter an end time chapter. While the Beast that parallels the Rev. 13 Beast is killed, it seems the other three are kings whose life is spared for a while.

Any thoughts?

Hi iamlamad;

I agree with you that Daniel 7 does represent the end times. The four beasts kingdoms as I see it would then represent the earth's 4 major social-economic systems. I think these systems are capitalist nations for one of the beasts, socialism for a second beast, emerging nations, who are also referred to as third world nations for a third beast, and Middle Eastern nations who policies consist of various aspects of the first three beasts policies as a fourth beast.

When we look for a comparison to these four beasts social-economic systems during the end times, we find the description of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse in Revelation 6. I believe the first horseman riding upon a white horse who goes about conquering to represent capitalist nations whose interest it is to secure other lands resources for personal consumption. The second horseman riding upon a red horse who initiates civil war among its constituents during the end times, I believe to represent socialist nations. The third horseman, riding a black horse who presides over its people to make sure they have sufficient to eat for their labor, I believe to represent emerging third world nations. And the fourth horseman who rides a speckled horse incorporating various aspects of the first three horseman, I believe to represent Middle Eastern nations.

[Sister]

On 10/13/2019 at 6:20 AM, iamlamad said:

Sorry, Sister, but they are TWO MEN.

Rev. 13

Revelation 13:1   And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

 

Revelation 17:12   And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

John saw the horns in Rev 13.  He saw them when they received their crowns.  He got that vision first - of them ruling.  Now in Chapter 17, he is shown that these 10 horns were not in existence *then* during John's day - when Rome was in power. It's clear they were not on the scene then, but to come (future).

 

Revelation 17:13   These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Revelation 17:14   These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

The 10 horns shall make war with the Lamb. 

 

Daniel 7:7   After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:8   I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Who came first? 

The 10 horns?

or

the little horn?

 

Quote

 

The first beast is "the Antichrist" so people say, or the antichrist beast. John wrote " ye have heard that antichrist shall come ..."  he was the "man of sin" Paul says will enter the temple and declare He is God. This is A MAN. But after he declares he is God, he is possessed by Satan Himself and becomes "the Beast." (#1)

The second beast is also called "the False Prophet. " Notice that He can only do miracles when it is close to (in the sight of) the first beast, because Satan, the power behind the miracles, is inside (possessing) the first Beast. This shows us they are TWO MEN.

 

The first beast is the 10 horns.  They sit on the 7th head (the last kingdom).

The 7 heads don't have crowns because they've come and gone.  Focus on the ones with the crowns.  They are the active ones.

Your explanation leaves out the 10 kings, who are a major part of this mystery.  The false prophet comes out of them.  They are working side by side.  Go back over Daniel.  He lays the groundwork for us to build upon, preparing us for the book of Revelation to understand better.

 

 

Quote

 

REv. 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Notice that the first beast (A MAN) was taken, and WITH HIM (again showing the first beast is a man) then later "BEFORE HIM" again showing "HIM" is a man, not an empire. A human is thrown into the lake of fire, NOT an empire.

 

iamlamad,

I don't see the first beast as a person, but 10 horns with crowns.  Rev 17 goes back to what John saw previously in Chapter 13.

This first beast talks too.  It talks through it's laws and policies.  It also blasphemes.  It was given power to "continue 42 months", because it's been around for a long time preparing everything.  It has an "image".

The 2nd beast is the False Prophet.  He is the puppet of the 10 kings.  He is their voice.  The Son of Perdition.  He will claim he is God, through deception and lying wonders. The miracles he will perform is because of craft (technology) This kingdom is full of lies and smokescreens.  Everything is a lie, even the miracles.

 2 Thessalonians 2:9   Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Sister

[Sister]

iamlamad

This teaching is dangerous in my opinion.  When the two witnesses come onto the scene, many will think they are the Anti-christ and False Prophet.  Remember when they are killed the world rejoices.  Obviously they will think that the two witnessess are the bad ones.

 

Revelation 11:10   And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.