What to make of "the rest of the Beasts" and "a season and a time."

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

Have you overlooked my comments? These are not my thoughts, but teaching from 50 years ago by very good teachers, and not just the latest whatever. I think they are at least worthy of a proper look and consideration.

Marilyn.

Sorry, Marilyn, I disagreed so just did not write. I don't think the US or England is anywhere in Bible prophecy except maybe in the world "islands."

[Sister]

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

How can you be mistaken over and over again after seeing proof that what you are saying is wrong? Read this again:

Now think with me: it should be obvious, if these ten only receive power at the end of the week, for "one hour," And hate the whore (Jerusalem) and burn her with fire, how they these ten possibly be the ten when the Beast emerges and takes out three?  The answer is, they CANNOT be the same ten. The ten in Daniel come up first, as you said, before the Beast emerges.

iamlamad.

The whore is NOT JERUSALEM.  The whore is the SYSTEM of the world.  The buying and selling system.  Trade.  Merchants and merchandise.  The whole world revolves around the material.  The whore has always been there to  "entice" men to lust after these material things.  Great men and small. 

The ten horns do receive power at the end for one hour.  They hate this system, which is why they want to make way for a new system. A new world order.  A more controlling one.  They are burning this current system with fire.  Not a physical fire, but a vexing fire. 

 

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Can we just believe what is written instead of imaginations? Look again at Daniel:

...it had ten horns.

⁸ I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots

REad it carefully: what horns get plucked up - from where or from what group? Note there are ten horns, and THERE CAME UP AMONG THEM....so the Little Horn is coming up among the ten. But AS he comes up, three of the ten are taken out.

So there should be seven horns left right?  Then why are there 10 horns in Rev with 10 crowns? 

Speaking of horns, not heads.

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It does not matter HOW the three were plucked up, or God would have told us. But three are GONE and the little Horn becomes the 8th King. Note carefully, 8 comes after 7, not after 10. The three are now GONE.

^{Rev. 17:11} And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 

The heads represent 7 kingdoms who have ruled throughout time.

The 7th head (kingdom) produces the 10 kings.  When the False Prophet (little horn) receives power, this kingdom morphs into an EIGHTH KINGDOM.  Not an 8th King.

 

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What is this telling us? There is ten NO MORE! Now there is seven, 7 kings, each with a nation. and he becomes the 8th king. Note carefully, it is NOT the eleventh!

You are getting the heads on the beast mixed up with the horns.  Those first 6 heads have got no crowns.  They are history.  But the 7th head has not one king ruling, but ten.  Ten horns with 10 crowns.  When the FP comes out of them, this kingdom will be completely different from the ones before it.  It's the 7th kingdom *changed* into the eighth kingdom.  It came out of the seventh.

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By the way, this DOES harmonize with Revelation, because the ten horns in Revelation are a DIFFERENT TEN that come along very late in the week. Just the TIMING alone proves they cannot be the same.

The 10 horns of his kingdom are tight.  MYTH! Proven a myth by the above verses.

 

  Revelation 17:13   These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

They are not broken up, but solid.  Tight.  One mind.

 

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This means three kings who have received power are on the world stage in existence before him (the little horn)  These are the three he will remove,  Sister, can we PLEASE just follow what is written? ALL TEN were on the scene before the Little Horn. He is a newcomer. Look around: is there a "king" over Iran? Is there a "king" over Jordan?  Is there a "king" over SAudi? Is there a "king" over every other nation surrounding Israel?  (All except Iraq which received a deadly wound and that "king" was taken out.) The Little Horn (or the first Beast of Revelation 13 being the same person) Is going to rise up somewhere in the Middle East, out of the nations we see TODAY. Many think he will come from Syria. He is going to conquer three and become the 8th king (10-3=7)

Again, you are getting the heads mixed up with the horns. 

So you think that the beast that was wounded and healed is Iraq?

That deadly wound the beast received is happening now as we speak.  Dirty deeds are being exposed and more will come.  They will recover.

 

 

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He moves fast like a leopard, his feet like a bear   Hmmmm. Perhaps those three ribs in the bear's mouth represent the three horns taken out by the little horn.

It looks like everything that I am saying here is falling on deaf ears, but here goes, another one to shoot down. 

That bear was the fourth king of Persia.  The three ribs symbolised the three kings of Persia before him.  The answer is here;

  Daniel 11:2   And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

Who was there before Grecia conquered ?

Was it not Medo & Persia (the Ram with 2 horns?)

Well out of this combined kingdom, it appears that this particular last king of Persia was the one who put Alexander into a conquering rage.

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I think you need further study. Just my opinion.

Yes thank you. I am always studying and going over. 

 

 

The 4th last terrible beast in Daniel with the 10 KINGS,  and the LITTLE HORN coming out of them will be destroyed by Christ at his coming.

We have 2 groups here.  The 10 horns, and the man.

They are the same ones in Revelation 13 who will be destroyed by Christ at his Coming. 

 

iamlamad, you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine, but we are not on the same page here.  I said what I wanted to say, and I've heard your argument, so we will just have to be patient and see how it all unfolds ok.  This discussion between ourselves is not working and we are butting heads.  I will pull out now, and you can say your right.

 

 

[luigi]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Most people thing John wrote "i will show you ONLY things which must be hereafter." The truth is, there is no "only" in that verse. 

Your perspective twists scriptures to say what you want, while denying the Word which clearly indicates that the things John is shown in chapters 4 through 22 concern the hereafter.

 

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, Marilyn, I disagreed so just did not write. I don't think the US or England is anywhere in Bible prophecy except maybe in the world "islands."

Hi iamlamad,

It is not about `I don`t think.....` but doing the work of `rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15) We can all say `I don`t agree, etc etc,` but to actually discuss what has been presented is work. Work to point out where the person has misunderstood the scripture, work to point out how it doesn`t relate to other scriptures, etc. You need to do some work bro, and not just wipe off what you don`t think.  

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

It is not about `I don`t think.....` but doing the work of `rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15) We can all say `I don`t agree, etc etc,` but to actually discuss what has been presented is work. Work to point out where the person has misunderstood the scripture, work to point out how it doesn`t relate to other scriptures, etc. You need to do some work bro, and not just wipe off what you don`t think.  

Marilyn.

Marilyn, it is not just this post: I have read many of your posts and I usually disagree. We just read the scriptures differently.

Let's see what the commentators say about this:

The first was like a lion.—The lion and the eagle are chosen as being emblems of strength and swiftness respectively. They characterise the empire of Nebuchadnezzar, and correspond to the golden head of the Colossus  (Ellicott)

The first was like a lion — The Chaldean or Babylonian empire: compared to the head of gold, the chief of metals, in the image represented to Nebuchadnezzar in his dream, Daniel 2:32; Daniel 2:37-38, is here represented as a lion, the king of beasts. Instead of a lion, the Vulgate, Greek, and Arabic read, a lioness, signifying, says Jerome, the cruelty of that empire, lionesses, according to naturalists, being fiercer than lions. It is represented as having eagles’ wings, to denote the extent and rapidity of its conquests, that empire being advanced to its height within a few years, by the conduct and arms of one single person, namely, Nebuchadnezzar. 

I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked — Or, torn out, as מריתוmay be rendered: that is, it was checked in its progress by frequent defeats, and rendered unable to make further conquests.  (Benson)

 The four beasts signified the same four empires, as the four parts of Nebuchadnezzar's image. (Matthew Henry)

  The giving to it of a man's heart: ...its ferocity would be tamed, and it would be characterized by comparative moderation and humanity. In Daniel 4:16, it is said of Nebuchadnezzar, "Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him;" here, if the symbol refers to him, it does not refer to that scene of humiliation when he was compelled to eat grass like a beast, but to the fact that he was brought to look at things as a man should do; he ceased to act like a ravenous beast, and was led to calm reflection, and to think and speak like a man - a rational being. Or, if it refers to the empire of Babylon, instead of the monarch, it would mean that a change had come over the nation under the succession of princes, so that the fierceness and ferocity of the first princes of the empire had ceased, and the nation had not only closed its conquests, but had actually become, to some extent, moderate and rational.  

Now, in regard to the application of this symbol, there can be but little difficulty, and there is almost no difference of opinion among expositors. All, or nearly all, agree that it refers to the kingdom of Babylon, of which Nebuchadnezzar was the head, and to the gradual diminution of the ferocity of conquest under a succession of comparatively weak princes.  (Barnes Notes)

 lion—the symbol of strength and courage; chief among the kingdoms, as the lion among the beasts. Nebuchadnezzar is called "the lion"

plucked—Its ability for widespread conquests passed away ..., during Nebuchadnezzar's privation of his throne, while deranged.

it was lifted up from the earth—that is, from its grovelling bestiality.

made stand … as a man—So long as Nebuchadnezzar, in haughty pride, relied on his own strength, he forfeited the true dignity of man, and was therefore degraded to be with the beasts. (JFB)

Lion, and eagle; one the king of beasts, the other the king of birds, for which he is called the golden head, as Daniel 2:32,38. This was the Chaldean or Assyrian;   (Matthew Poole)

The first was like a lion,.... That which rose up first, the kingdom of the Babylonians, as the Syriac version expresses it; or the Assyrian monarchy, founded by Nimrod, increased by the Assyrians, and brought to its height under Nebuchadnezzar by the Babylonians and Chaldeans; this is said to be like a "lion" for its strength and power, for its greatness, dignity, and majesty; the same with the head of gold in Nebuchadnezzar's dream; (Gill)

The first was like a {c} lion, and had eagle's wings: (c) Meaning the Assyrian and Chaldean empire, which was most strong and fierce in power  (Geneva Study Bible)

It corresponds to the head of gold in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream (Daniel 2:32; Daniel 2:38), and denotes, analogously to that, the Babylonian empire (comp. the simile of the lion applied to Nebuchadnezzar in Jeremiah 49:19   (Cambridge Study Bible.)

It seems none of these old Commentators were thinking of England and the US.

My own opinion is that God has always concentrated scripture on Israel as the focal point, and beyond that only the nations that controlled Israel at one time. I don't think God changed here in Daniel 7. These four beasts are made as a minimum to remind people of the image of chapter 2, if not to point to them.

This is only my opinion. It differs from yours.  We probably won't agree any time soon.

 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, luigi said:

Your perspective twists scriptures to say what you want, while denying the Word which clearly indicates that the things John is shown in chapters 4 through 22 concern the hereafter.

Why do you say such a thing: does YOUR bible include the word "only" in that verse?

If you insist I "twist" then SHOW the scripture and show how I twisted it.

How would you have answered if Jesus Christ, the head of the church, had asked YOU those three questions? I really would like to hear your answer.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Sister said:

iamlamad.

The whore is NOT JERUSALEM.  The whore is the SYSTEM of the world.  The buying and selling system.  Trade.  Merchants and merchandise.  The whole world revolves around the material.  The whore has always been there to  "entice" men to lust after these material things.  Great men and small. 

The ten horns do receive power at the end for one hour.  They hate this system, which is why they want to make way for a new system. A new world order.  A more controlling one.  They are burning this current system with fire.  Not a physical fire, but a vexing fire. 

 

So there should be seven horns left right?  Then why are there 10 horns in Rev with 10 crowns? 

Speaking of horns, not heads.

The heads represent 7 kingdoms who have ruled throughout time.

The 7th head (kingdom) produces the 10 kings.  When the False Prophet (little horn) receives power, this kingdom morphs into an EIGHTH KINGDOM.  Not an 8th King.

 

You are getting the heads on the beast mixed up with the horns.  Those first 6 heads have got no crowns.  They are history.  But the 7th head has not one king ruling, but ten.  Ten horns with 10 crowns.  When the FP comes out of them, this kingdom will be completely different from the ones before it.  It's the 7th kingdom *changed* into the eighth kingdom.  It came out of the seventh.

  Revelation 17:13   These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

They are not broken up, but solid.  Tight.  One mind.

 

Again, you are getting the heads mixed up with the horns. 

So you think that the beast that was wounded and healed is Iraq?

That deadly wound the beast received is happening now as we speak.  Dirty deeds are being exposed and more will come.  They will recover.

 

 

It looks like everything that I am saying here is falling on deaf ears, but here goes, another one to shoot down. 

That bear was the fourth king of Persia.  The three ribs symbolised the three kings of Persia before him.  The answer is here;

  Daniel 11:2   And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

Who was there before Grecia conquered ?

Was it not Medo & Persia (the Ram with 2 horns?)

Well out of this combined kingdom, it appears that this particular last king of Persia was the one who put Alexander into a conquering rage.

Yes thank you. I am always studying and going over. 

The 4th last terrible beast in Daniel with the 10 KINGS,  and the LITTLE HORN coming out of them will be destroyed by Christ at his coming.

We have 2 groups here.  The 10 horns, and the man.

They are the same ones in Revelation 13 who will be destroyed by Christ at his Coming. 

iamlamad, you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine, but we are not on the same page here.  I said what I wanted to say, and I've heard your argument, so we will just have to be patient and see how it all unfolds ok.  This discussion between ourselves is not working and we are butting heads.  I will pull out now, and you can say your right.

 

The whore is NOT JERUSALEM.  The whore is the SYSTEM of the world.  The buying and selling system.  Trade...  Now, let's compare your answer to what is really written:

^{Rev. 17: 18} And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

Note carefully, John tells us it is a CITY - you say it is a "system:" a buying and selling "system."

It does no good to show you a scripture if you just deny it.  We have no common ground on which to discuss.

The whore has always been there to  "entice" men to lust after these material things.  You have totally missed the point of Revelation! Did you ignore what the Beast and False prophet will DO? Let me remind you:

Rev. 17: 1. “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, ² with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”

What KIND of fornication?

Rev. 13:3 ...And all the world marveled and followed the beast. ⁴ So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”   ⁸ All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Do you SEE IT? All the world is worshiping SATAN through the Beast who claims to be God and the False Prophet who has miracles to prove it.  THIS is the great deception of the whore: The Beast and false prophet will operate from Jerusalem to deceive the entire world. THIS "whore" John is speaking of will only be there for 3.5 years - the last half of the tribulation.

As you can see, this has NOTHING TO DO with "trade."

So there should be seven horns left right?  Then why are there 10 horns in Rev with 10 crowns?   I have explained over and over: this is a DIFFERENT SET OF TEN that comes in for the battle of Armageddon ONLY.

Well out of this combined kingdom, it appears that this particular last king of Persia was the one who put Alexander into a conquering rage. Wow! Finally you have something I can agree with! Thank the Lord Forever! I hope you understand, we were talking about the future, how the Beast of Rev.  13 (the Little Horn of Daniel 7) will take out three kings as He rises to power. Therefore, Sister, you are about 2700 years off in your theory! you are trying to find the future in history.

I must give this up. I can't stand it! Sorry!

[Marilyn C]

51 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Marilyn, it is not just this post: I have read many of your posts and I usually disagree. We just read the scriptures differently.

first contemporary super power to emerge

Hi iamlamad,

That is NOT work! You just posted what others say. When we discuss you discuss what the person commented on and show how it is not what scripture is saying. All you did was download historical conjecture, which is supposed to match with contemporary super powers.

For eg. When I said -

Let`s look at the emblems - Heraldry. O.Neubecker, Director of the `International Academy of Heraldry` and foremost authority in this field, explains -

`The appearance of a lion as a heraldic beast by no means indicates that it forms part of the native fauna of that country; its use comes from the significance attributed to it. The lion is the symbol of Royal Sovereignty and the eagle the symbol of Imperial Power.`

In combination we have the initial clue to the identity of this . A sovereign Monarchy which exercised imperialistic power over a substantial area of the world. ie. An empire ruled by a Monarch.

 

That is what you need to comment on.

 

Then this part -

 

Further revelation was given to Daniel. `As I looked its wings were plucked off.` (Dan. 7: 4) There is a fascinating double reference in this.

a) The empire lost its capacity for imperialistic expansion.

b) Part of the empire became a separate nation with the eagle as its emblem.

`It was made to stand on two feet like a man; and the spirit of a man was given to it.` (Dan. 7: 4)

Here is transformation. Until now the outlook and operation had been that of a powerful beast, imperialistically conquering, dominating and colonising. Suddenly there is a remarkable change to the higher qualities of the spirit of man. In Political language, co-exiting in freedom, peace and equality with its former dominions. An empire becomes a Commonwealth of nations.

 

That is also what you need to comment on and say why you don`t see contemporary super-powers like that. 

 

Not go on with a whole lot of historical conjecture, but actually talk about contemporary powers and which ones have the emblem of the `Lion` and which have the emblem of the `Eagle.`

God is NOT lost in the past. He is right up to date and beyond.  So -

The Lion = .....................

The Eagle = ....................

 

Marilyn.

 

 

[iamlamad]

23 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

That is NOT work! You just posted what others say. When we discuss you discuss what the person commented on and show how it is not what scripture is saying. All you did was download historical conjecture, which is supposed to match with contemporary super powers.

For eg. When I said -

Let`s look at the emblems - Heraldry. O.Neubecker, Director of the `International Academy of Heraldry` and foremost authority in this field, explains -

`The appearance of a lion as a heraldic beast by no means indicates that it forms part of the native fauna of that country; its use comes from the significance attributed to it. The lion is the symbol of Royal Sovereignty and the eagle the symbol of Imperial Power.`

In combination we have the initial clue to the identity of this . A sovereign Monarchy which exercised imperialistic power over a substantial area of the world. ie. An empire ruled by a Monarch.

 

That is what you need to comment on.

 

Then this part -

 

Further revelation was given to Daniel. `As I looked its wings were plucked off.` (Dan. 7: 4) There is a fascinating double reference in this.

a) The empire lost its capacity for imperialistic expansion.

b) Part of the empire became a separate nation with the eagle as its emblem.

`It was made to stand on two feet like a man; and the spirit of a man was given to it.` (Dan. 7: 4)

Here is transformation. Until now the outlook and operation had been that of a powerful beast, imperialistically conquering, dominating and colonising. Suddenly there is a remarkable change to the higher qualities of the spirit of man. In Political language, co-exiting in freedom, peace and equality with its former dominions. An empire becomes a Commonwealth of nations.

 

That is also what you need to comment on and say why you don`t see contemporary super-powers like that. 

 

Not go on with a whole lot of historical conjecture, but actually talk about contemporary powers and which ones have the emblem of the `Lion` and which have the emblem of the `Eagle.`

God is NOT lost in the past. He is right up to date and beyond.  So -

The Lion = .....................

The Eagle = ....................

 

Marilyn.

 

 

Marilyn, it seems you just did not get this, so I will spell it out: You quoted "Heraldry. O.Neubecke" so I quote several others. They are men and they can be wrong. I happen to disagree with Heraldry. You apparently believe he is right.

A sovereign Monarchy which exercised imperialistic power over a substantial area of the world. ie. An empire ruled by a Monarch.

 If you are talking future, that would be the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and the Beast of Rev. 13, being the very same person. Satan will give him authority over the world. Without a doubt, those beasts in Daniel 7 are to represent FUTURE empires and leaders, but IN CONTEXT they point back to the image of Daniel 2. We cannot ignore that!

What Daniel and John are saying is that PEOPLE living today in what used to be called Persia, and people in what used to be called Babylon will most certainly be involved in the Beast's kingdom. The Lion was to point back to Nebuchadnezzar, NOT ENGLAND!

Do you understand now, I simply disagree with you and with Heraldry.

The first website I consulted:

1. Daniel’s lion = England, whose coat of arms carries three lions. The eagle’s wings removed from the lion represent the United States, which we know separated from England during the American Revolution.

2. Daniel’s bear = Russia, whose national symbol is a bear.

3. Daniel’s leopard = Germany, whose Leopard tanks have been used predominantly in European armies since their introduction in the 1960s.

I disagree with this theory.

The second website:

In Daniel 7:3-4 Daniel records, “And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.”

In verse 17 we are told, “Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth.” The lion was symbolic of the kingdom of Babylon and the “man’s heart” was that of its most notable king, Nebuchadnezzar, who is written about considerably in the first four chapters of Daniel.

I agree with this one.

Marilyn, you and I are just going to disagree here. If you wish to believe Daniel was writing of England and the US, feel free - but I think your theory will be proven wrong.

Edited October 17, 2019 by iamlamad

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Marilyn, it seems you just did not get this, so I will spell it out: You quoted "Heraldry. O.Neubecke" so I quote several others. They are men and they can be wrong. I happen to disagree with Heraldry. You apparently believe he is right.

A sovereign Monarchy which exercised imperialistic power over a substantial area of the world. ie. An empire ruled by a Monarch.

 If you are talking future, that would be the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and the Beast of Rev. 13, being the very same person. Satan will give him authority over the world. Without a doubt, those beasts in Daniel 7 are to represent FUTURE empires and leaders, but IN CONTEXT they point back to the image of Daniel 2. We cannot ignore that!

What Daniel and John are saying is that PEOPLE living today in what used to be called Persia, and people in what used to be called Babylon will most certainly be involved in the Beast's kingdom. The Lion was to point back to Nebuchadnezzar, NOT ENGLAND!

 

 

Hi iamlamad,

Thank you for specifically commenting on what I wrote. That makes for good discussion.

Now I also see the `little horn` and the leader of the Global Government, (Rev. 13: 3) as the same person. So we agree there, bro.

Now you have not proven that those contemporary beastly powers of Dan. 7 point back to history. 

As I said God is very up to date and has revealed to us specifically the line up of the super powers of our day that go to make the Global Government. They are a phenomenon of our times. I am in the process of putting together a blog on this very subject.

Marilyn.