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What to make of "the rest of the Beasts" and "a season and a time."


iamlamad

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3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Luigi,

I do not see this as questioning the deity of Jesus in the least, the key here is that "No Man" on heaven or Earth, points to the Jesus as the Son of man, thus pointing to his humanity, That until he suffered on the cross as the lamb, no man was able to open the seals. He is the first fruits of the resurrection in that respect of his humanity, as the God-Man, which forecasts our bodily resurrection in the future to heaven. What is being said here is not denying Jesus Deity as the eternal God, But is showing his progress from being a pre-incarnated Christ to being the Son of Man, to being the resurrected Son of man. In other words he was and is and is to come fully God, but He was not a man, became a man and is now glorified and resurrected Son of Man. The Point Iamlamad is making is about Jesus' humanity, not his deity. Iamlamad's point is very valid, and is backed up by the following verse from revelation. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (rev. 1:19) meaning that the visions he will see are past present and future things thus the preview to the time of the seals is a vision of past heavenly events. 

In Fact, once we understand that this is discussing the humanity of Christ Jesus, then we see why this was so important, as John had to deal with Gnosticism in the early church which denied the Humanity of Christ Jesus (See 1 John 4:1-6), not his deity. Most modern cults deny his deity, But back then, and even now gnostics deny his humanity. Jesus was both fully God, and fully Man, God incarnate. He was not just a theophany (God appearing as a man) but a human born of the flesh via the virgin birth. 

dhchristian, While the 24 elders state in the present tense that the Lord who sacrificed Himself some 60+ years earlier is worthy to open the seven seals (Revelation 5:9); Revelation 5:5, however, is in the then present 95 AD prevailing to open the seven seals. This does not mean that the Lord was incapable or failed in the past to open the seven seals as some here have suggested. 

 Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

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On 10/8/2019 at 1:06 AM, iamlamad said:

Considering this verse:

Dan. 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

This verse seems to make this chapter an end time chapter. While the Beast that parallels the Rev. 13 Beast is killed, it seems the other three are kings whose life is spared for a while.

Any thoughts?

Dan 7 defines beasts as 4 kingdoms and 4 kings. 

If it said 4 kingdoms and about 30 kings, I would think of human kings. But these kings must last for hundreds of years if there are only 4 of them, 1 for each beast. Daniel 10 clarifies that regional demon kings are a spiritual reality. In Rev we  have a further hint that a beast is a demon king. The beast comes out of the bottomless pit, a place for demons , Abaddon also comes from there (Rev 9). Neither a human king, nor an empire come out of pits, yet that description fits a demon coming out of a pit. 

So I believe the 4 beasts are 4 regional demon kings. 1 of them is thrown into the lake of fire at the second coming (Rev 19), this could be a major reason why Israel is so holy in the millennial age. The demon prince of the Syria/Israel area is destroyed in the lake of fire. 

Yet the other 3 demon princes are allowed to live on. Satan is in the bottomless pit, beast 4 is in the lake of fire, so temptation is vastly reduced during the millennium. Yet there is some temptation, due to those 3 regional princes allowed to live on (Persia, Greece, Babylon) 

Edited by ARGOSY
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Just now, luigi said:

dhchristian, While the 24 elders state in the present tense that the Lord who sacrificed Himself some 60+ years earlier is worthy to open the seven seals (Revelation 5:9); Revelation 5:5, however, is in the then present 95 AD prevailing to open the seven seals. This does not mean that the Lord was incapable or failed in the past to open the seven seals as some here have suggested. 

 Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

I Think you are missing Iamlamad's point, which is a legitimate one, which is definitely not heretical as some here have suggested because it deals with the humanity of God, and not the divinity. I am not sure what you are referring to in regards to 95 ad and what not per se, as I am jumping in here late, But the fact that the 24 elders speak in the present tense means nothing to the Point Iamlamad is making. John saw a vision, and the 24 elders in the vision were speaking in the present tense, this says nothing of WHEN this takes place. Iamlamad says it takes place in 32 Ad (1st seal opened) I disagree with his conclusions But his argument is valid and not heretical. What he said in my opinion is wholly in line with scriptures, and passes the test of the Spirits as outlined in 1 John 4:1-6. In fact, what he is saying is a great evidence of the humanity of Christ. We in the church often deal with the deity of Christ and those who deny it, we are not used dealing so much with those who deny the humanity of Christ, which are just as much cultic as those who deny His divinity.   

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13 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I Think you are missing Iamlamad's point, which is a legitimate one, which is definitely not heretical as some here have suggested because it deals with the humanity of God, and not the divinity. I am not sure what you are referring to in regards to 95 ad and what not per se, as I am jumping in here late, But the fact that the 24 elders speak in the present tense means nothing to the Point Iamlamad is making. John saw a vision, and the 24 elders in the vision were speaking in the present tense, this says nothing of WHEN this takes place. Iamlamad says it takes place in 32 Ad (1st seal opened) I disagree with his conclusions But his argument is valid and not heretical. What he said in my opinion is wholly in line with scriptures, and passes the test of the Spirits as outlined in 1 John 4:1-6. In fact, what he is saying is a great evidence of the humanity of Christ. We in the church often deal with the deity of Christ and those who deny it, we are not used dealing so much with those who deny the humanity of Christ, which are just as much cultic as those who deny His divinity.   

The book of Revelation was written circa 95 AD when John was exiled to the island of Patmos, during the persecution of the Christians by the Roman Emperor Domitan. So unless the book of Revelation is a historical account of events prior to 95 AD, the events under the seals are events after 95 AD. Additional corroboration that the events under the seven seals occur after the first century is Revelation 4:1 where John is called to heaven to be shown forthcoming events.

Revelation 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am guessing you are talking about the feet and toes of the image in chapter 2.  Time passes as we move from the head of this image down. We are now at the feet and toes of this image: and the ROCK will strike the feet.

We probably both agree that the legs of Iron point to Ancient Rome. Over time Rome was divided into East and West - hence the two legs. But before that, after the four generals took over Alexander's conquered lands, it was not long before there are only two left: the Seleucus dynasty and the Ptolemaic dynasty - hence the two thighs of Greece - which over time turned into the two legs of Rome. After around 285 AD Rome was divided into East and West - so two legs.

If we look back, Babylon conquered Assyria, then Med0-Persia conquered Babylon. Then Greece conquered Persia, and finally, Rome conquered Greece. But WHO conquered Rome? It was just hundreds of small battles over time and Rome just sort of faded away. Western Rome in 476 AD. Eastern Rome fell in 1453 AD to the Ottomans. The Ottoman Empire was defeated in World War 1.

However,  geography does not change, and in general, people don't change: they just keep having kids and generation after generation comes and goes. One thing that changes this norm is migrations. Shortly after Muhammad's death, a religious migration started, QUICKLY moving West from Arabia around the Mediterranean Sea, up through Spain and France, and into the rest or Europe. Later, raiding parties from Turkey would head north into what is now Ukraine, and as far as into Russia, murdering the men, and carrying the young and the woman away as slaves. Some have estimated several million people from this area were carried away and sold as slaves to people in the Middle East.

More recently, wars have caused great migrations of people: Muslims into Christian nations.  One thing we know, just as clay will not mix with iron, Islam will not mix with Christianity or any other religion.

We are now in the time of the feet and toes of the image. WHERE are these two feet? One could make an educated guess that one foot would cover what used to be EAstern Rome, and the other in Western Rome. 

Eastern Rome today is mostly made up of Muslim nations and people. Turkey has not been a Muslim nation, but it seems they are moving quickly to become one.

Western Rome today has been changed rapidly with millions of Muslim migrants into most of the European nations. Again, they don't "mix:" rather, they demand CHANGE. 

One thing we can determine without any doubt at all: although some of Great Britain was a part of the Roman Empire, North and South America NEVER WAS.  Therefore we can dismiss any part of the Americas in the end time bible scenario.

Now a question: WHY did God cause the Beasts of Daniel 7 to so closely resemble the nations or empires or kings from the image of Daniel 2? Almost all of the commentators comment on this resemblance. I am certainly not alone in thinking that God PURPOSELY made the beasts of Daniel 7 resemble closely the empires of the Daniel 2 image. I can only come up with one answer: God did this ON PURPOSE, because the same Empires of the Dan. 2 image are involved in the end time scenario.  Just as an example: the Leopard Beast was make to look like Alexander the Great and the awesome speed with which he conquered, and with the four heads to remind us of the four divisions of the Grecian Empire.

Then the 4th beast that was made to resemble the iron legs of Rome.  Without any doubt then, the modern nations of Iraq, Iran, the several nations that make up the western foot of the image, and the several other nations that make up the Eastern foot of the image - ALL THESE will be in the end time Biblical scenario.  Some of them will be the ten "kings" from which three get taken out, as the Beast emerges - to end up with seven nations and the Beast as the 8th king. Some will no doubt be the ten Kings that throw in with the Beast in the final hour.

Sorry, but I cannot see the US in any of this. I even doubt that England will be a part of it.

We don't always agree, but that was a very good summary of the 4 kingdoms, and Rome's history through the ages. 

Due to living in the times of the decline of Turkey, I have underestimated Turkey's role in the past. But more recently I've come to see that Turkey has largely been the more significant of the two parts of Rome, up until WWI. 

Turkeys leader Erdogan is planning a resurge in Turkeys power, creating a Turkish Union and reintroducing the Caliphate in Istanbul. This could very well be the rise of the 10 horns, not in Europe as previously thought, but rather in the Middle East. 

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Just now, luigi said:

The book of Revelation was written circa 95 AD when John was exiled to the island of Patmos, during the persecution of the Christians by the Roman Emperor Domitan. So unless the book of Revelation is a historical account of events prior to 95 AD, the events under the seals are events after 95 AD. Additional corroboration that the events under the seven seals occur after the first century is Revelation 4:1 where John is called to heaven to be shown forthcoming events.

Again, Your missing the point, the seals are "hereafter", but the vision begins in the past. Let's say I was going to show you what is going to happen to president Trump in the future, I begin by telling you some details from the past, such as his rise to power, his family etc. Rev. 4/5 is background information on the seals and what the Book was that was sealed, the deed to the earth, and how Christ was deemed worthy to open the seals by his sacrifice on the cross, as the sinless lamb of God. What you say is partly why I disagree with Iamlamad as to the first seal being the Gospel going out to the nations, Because I see the seals as how we through the blood of that Lamb and the word of our testimony overcome Satan which results in his loss of the claim over the earth which he holds. 

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17 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

We don't always agree, but that was a very good summary of the 4 kingdoms, and Rome's history through the ages. 

Due to living in the times of the decline of Turkey, I have underestimated Turkey's role in the past. But more recently I've come to see that Turkey has largely been the more significant of the two parts of Rome, up until WWI. 

Turkeys leader Erdogan is planning a resurge in Turkeys power, creating a Turkish Union and reintroducing the Caliphate in Istanbul. This could very well be the rise of the 10 horns, not in Europe as previously thought, but rather in the Middle East. 

I agree here. Good.  I have read several web sites that attempt to prove that Gog and Magog are in Turkey. They have convinced me.

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31 minutes ago, luigi said:

The book of Revelation was written circa 95 AD when John was exiled to the island of Patmos, during the persecution of the Christians by the Roman Emperor Domitan. So unless the book of Revelation is a historical account of events prior to 95 AD, the events under the seals are events after 95 AD. Additional corroboration that the events under the seven seals occur after the first century is Revelation 4:1 where John is called to heaven to be shown forthcoming events.

Revelation 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter

As I have said OVER AND OVER, God DID show John things that came hereafter. God did just exactly what He said He was going to do. So what if God left out that He would begin the vision in John's past? MOST of what John saw is still future to us!

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52 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

Dan 7 defines beasts as 4 kingdoms and 4 kings. 

If it said 4 kingdoms and about 30 kings, I would think of human kings. But these kings must last for hundreds of years if there are only 4 of them, 1 for each beast. Daniel 10 clarifies that regional demon kings are a spiritual reality. In Rev we  have a further hint that a beast is a demon king. The beast comes out of the bottomless pit, a place for demons , Abaddon also comes from there (Rev 9). Neither a human king, nor an empire come out of pits, yet that description fits a demon coming out of a pit. 

So I believe the 4 beasts are 4 regional demon kings. 1 of them is thrown into the lake of fire at the second coming (Rev 19), this could be a major reason why Israel is so holy in the millennial age. The demon prince of the Syria/Israel area is destroyed in the lake of fire. 

Yet the other 3 demon princes are allowed to live on. Satan is in the bottomless pit, beast 4 is in the lake of fire, so temptation is vastly reduced during the millennium. Yet there is some temptation, due to those 3 regional princes allowed to live on (Persia, Greece, Babylon) 

It is a theory, but does it really fit this verse?

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

To me this speaks more of humans than demonic spirits.  Thanks for answering!

Edited by iamlamad
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14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is a theory, but does it really fit this verse?

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

To me this speaks more of humans than demonic spirits.  Thanks for answering!

Yes it does fit the verse

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