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What to make of "the rest of the Beasts" and "a season and a time."


iamlamad

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3 hours ago, luigi said:

But I have said many times here, I see all the events shown John in chapters 4 through 22 as hereafter events. I do not see any of these events circa 27 AD as you have previously stated, nor do I recognize the travailing woman in chapter 12 as Mary which would represent a historical account and not a prophesy event. I will, however, agree that mention of the Lords qualification for opening of the seven seals does represent a recounting of the event qualifying His worthiness in opening the seven seals. 

It is OK that you don't see things as I see them. But I wonder, why have you not attempted to answer the Questions Jesus asked ME? If your theory is correct, you should have an answer to all three questions. Yet, you have refrained.

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27 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Where is China in Bible Prophecy?

 

China is part of the `Kings of the East.` (Rev. 16: 12)

`Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way for The Kings of the East might be prepared.` (Rev. 16: 12)

This refers obviously to a power-bloc far removed geographically from previous world events. Kings of the `Sunrising` is a closer literal translation. It is the historical designation of nationalities populating the orient. Countries which for centuries have remained isolated from the rest of the world. `Kings of the East` is thus a synonym of the Orient & includes all the principalities of that area.

 

Subsequent upon the defeat of Japan,  (WW2)Communist China emerged as the dominant force in the orient. China certainly has an enormous population, & has made remarkable progress in the production of weapons of war. However, what is predicted and envisaged in Revelation is the mobilization of a giant confederacy of all the oriental countries. China, of course, will take precedence by virtue of their immense man-power. However, their indigenous numerical strength will be augmented by their adjacent ethnological allies.

The army of the Kings of the East will be the largest ever statistically conceived. Two hundred million troops on the road to Armageddon. Imagine the amazement of the Apostle John. At that time the whole population of the entire world barely reached that figure. By way of comparison, during World War 2, fifty million was the maximum number engaged in all armies, both allied and enemy, combined.

In this context a two hundred million combat force certainly presents an incredible numerical concept. However, with the current popu­lation explosion in the Orient, for the first time in history, such a predicted number is not only conceivable but actually available. One has only to walk through the streets of any Chinese town; or travel in a Chinese tram, to encounter an amazing number of armed uniformed troops.

Make no mistake:-

"God has prepared that exact number specifically for this very hour, and day, and month, and year." (Rev. 9:15-16)

The Appointed Time is set!

 

The Overlanders

 

This mighty coalition of oriental powers has, in the predictable future, neither the naval or air force capability to transport such a gigantic force. However, rapid overland transportation through China, and consequent deployment to Armageddon has recently been impressively facilitated.

China Tourism Magazine reports:-

To speed up development of tourism, "Tarmaced" highways have replaced the old camel-tracks meandering paths, air-conditioned deluxe passenger coaches travel at speeds of 120 kilometres per hour, skirting the Gobi desert at altitudes of over 4,000 metres.

From Kashgar, the terminus of the ancient "Silk Road", the newly engineered Karakoram Highway climbs over the Khunerjab Pass which like a sentinel commands, at 4,785 metres altitude, access into Pakistan and the West.

 

A travel agency in Paris has designed a 28 day trip which follows this legendary Silk Road in its entirety".

 

This ancient "Silk Road" formed a gigantic link from the capital of China, in Han times, to the shores of the Mediterranean Sea.

The way of the Kings of the East has not only been prepared, as predicted; but it has literally been 'paved'!

 

  New Eurasian Continental Bridge

 

Infinitely more significant, however, than even the above-mentioned impressive modernising of the overland highways, are the implica­tions of the immense project just completed. The current issue of 'China Today*, the official monthly publication devoted to promul­gating and eulogizing that country's 'Reconstruction Progress', provides an enthusiastic report :-

"A new Eurasian Continental Bridge is a major accomplishment for the 1990's. The ambitious undertaking was to construct a 'continen­tal bridge' to convey passengers and freight 10,800 kilometres from the eastern coast of China to the Mediterranean and European ports in one smooth continuous operation. Compared to marine naviga­tion this would shorten the distance by 10,000 kilometres, thus saving considerable cost and time.

There are only four continental bridges in the world, this - the newest - commenced operation, as scheduled, in mid 1991. The China section of the trunk railway transverses 4,200 kilometres from Lianyungang on the East China Sea across the entire country to the Alatawa Pass on its Western border frontier. There it connects with the already established railroad system to the Mediterranean and Europe. (See map of China and Railroads)

Lianyungang was designated in 1985, as the eastern terminal of this project. Since then fabrication of ultra-modern dock facilities have been especially designed and constructed uniquely for this purpose. The port is capable of handling containers, and providing other consignment facilities simultaneously and expeditiously.

Xuzhou, 230 kilometres to the west, is the communications hub and crossroads of the Eurasian Continental Bridge. This terminal integrates into the system the trunk railways from the northern provinces routed through Beijing; together with those from Shang­hai and the south. Xuzhou railway station, completed 1991 extends over 11.5 kilometres, with a remarkable fully automated transport capacity. Direct trains pass through every 2 or 3 minutes -passenger and freight trains operating on separate individual lines. Xuzhou was, and is a strategic military site in both current and modem times."

 

The phenomenal significance of this extensively planned, compe­tently executed and efficiently operated Eurasian Continental Bridge is startlingly obvious, with particular contemporary connotations.

 

The 'Way of the Kings of the East' to Armageddon is no longer an ancient prophecy, an obscure prediction, or an academic theory, but is a stark evident reality. This is such an obvious sign of the fulfilment of the prophecies of the Bible, that even the most bigoted sceptic cannot fail to be so impressed. Consider:-

 

 

1.A modem efficient multi-terminal port is already available for the speedy disembarkation of China's Oriental allies:- i.e. the rest of the 'Kings of the East'.

 

2. The New Eurasian Continental Bridge east-west trunk railway will provide expeditious and speedy transport all the way to Arma­geddon;

 

(a)Facilities for the full complement of troops specifically designated in the Biblical prophecy - Revelation 9:16.

(b) Separate railtracks for simultaneous transport of their tanks, guns and other armaments of a modem mechanised army.

                                          Dried Up River Bed

 

The Euphrates River has consistently figured prominently in, and invariably presented a formidable barrier for, the Great Empires of the past. This caused by its geographical location bisecting, as it does, the whole of the Middle East from North to South, plus its remarkable length. It originates in Turkey and flows practically three thousand kilometres to the Persian Gulf at Iraq, and is virtually devoid of fordable crossings. Symbolically, as well as practically, it has always been considered the ancient demarcation line between East and West.

 

Rudyard Kipling, England's first Nobel prize winner, encapsulated it concisely in his "Ballad".

"East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet".

God has ordained and predicted that there will be a meeting on a massive and far-reaching scale. A specific and unmistakable sign will precisely indicate the time-slot.

"The Great River Euphrates was 'Dried up' to prepare the way for the Kings of the East" (Rev. 16:12)

The "Gap" project is one of the most ambitious programs ever undertaken in Turkey. It is an integrated project involving the building of a series of dams and hydroelectric power plants on the Euphrates and Tigris rivers.

 

The Turkish Government advises:-

"When completed it will supply fifty percent of their electrical power and irrigate nearly two million hectares of land in the south-east plains surrounding the rivers (see Gulf Area Map). There will be eleven large dams on the river Euphrates. The Ataturk Dam has already been completed."

As a direct result of this achievement, intensive condemnation was forcefully expressed by the nations downstream. The Baghdad correspondent of the Melbourne Sun-Herald quoted from the official newspaper 'Al-Thawra':-

The Iraqi Government has lodged very strong diplomatic com­plaints. The River Euphrates was diverted for thirty days to fill this new dam in Turkey. The once fertile fields of wheat and barley in the Euphrates basin are dried-up wastelands and desert".

 

Currently relations between Syria and Turkey are severely strained for the same reason. In spite of this the remaining extensive projects of this 'Gap' program are progressing on schedule. The River Euphrates is drying up. The stage is set for the Kings of the East. 

  It is later than we think!

 

 

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2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Hi Wingnut! You propose a very interesting problem. I can only guess at an answer, for John gives us no clues: these all may be Old Testament saints still in their spirit form. Or, perhaps God raised them sometime and did not tell us. I am convinced they are of the Adamic race, but that is about all we can know about them. Do you have an answer that fits the scriptures?

 

Matthew 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 

 

Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
    and he gave gifts to men.”

9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

Paul quotes from Psalm 68 in the Ephesians passage. 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This expression is about someone from a farm, so far back in the hills they know nothing of city life. But as the truck carrying farm produce enters the city, a rider falls off. He is pretty much lost.

I had written:  "When you finally figure out WHY Jesus was not qualified or found worthy to take the book, then perhaps you will understand the TIME when He was not found worthy. "

Your answer was:  "Jesus has been and will always be WORTHY, WORTHY, WORTHY." 

Yes, OF COURSE Jesus is "worthy" but that was not our discussion. We were discussing worthy to take the book and open the seals.

Now I have a question for you: if "no man was found worthy "in heaven," "on earth" and "under the earth," but as you said "Jesus is worthy worthy worthy," then WHERE WAS JESUS at the time of this search?

I posted the scripture -

`And I looked and behold, in the MIDST OF THE THRONE.......a Lamb as though it had been slain...` (Rev. 5: 6)

Jesus in the Godhead, (although obviously a pictorial representation).

Jesus as glorified man went to the Godhead at the right hand of the Father as scripture tells us, (Heb. 1: 3) Then when this highest throne in the created order is `set up` by the Father we see that it is the Lord Jesus Himself who is to be enthroned there and given His inheritance (Ps. 2: 8) and the authority to judge the nations of the world.  

 

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3 hours ago, luigi said:

At least you agree that the events under the seals are in the hereafter, even though I recognize the events under the seven seals to represent end time events well after the first century AD. Iamlamad, on the other hand has been proposing some of the events under the seven seals having occurred significantly prior to 95 AD. He has also proposed that the travailing woman in Revelation 12 represents Mary, which would make it being a hereafter invalid. If you want to see what has been discussed over the last two days on this topic between iamlamad and myself, I suggest you start around page 7 or 8 on this thread. If you do, you will see I back up my perspectives with numerous scriptures, while iamlamad for the most part offers unsubstantiated conjecture.

That is simply not true. I backed up everything I said from scripture. For example, in Rev. 4 you all know John saw the Father on the throne but did not see the Son at the right hand of the Father.

You all know by now that angels conducted a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals, but that search ended in failure and John wrote "no man was found."

You all know the scripture in chapter 5 where suddenly Jesus appeared in the throne room where He was not the moment before: as a lamb having been slain. And then just as He had promised the disciples, He sent the Holy Spirit down as soon as He ascended.  You wish to make this future ( I don't know what date you would choose) but I submit that from the scriptures God is showing us that Jesus took the book from the Father as soon as He ascended.

I think the problem is, many people read these verses with preconceived glasses on. They simply cannot believe that there was a time when Jesus Christ was NOT worthy to take the book.

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Just now, Marilyn C said:

I posted the scripture -

`And I looked and behold, in the MIDST OF THE THRONE.......a Lamb as though it had been slain...` (Rev. 5: 6)

Jesus in the Godhead, (although obviously a pictorial representation).

Jesus as glorified man went to the Godhead at the right hand of the Father as scripture tells us, (Heb. 1: 3) Then when this highest throne in the created order is `set up` by the Father we see that it is the Lord Jesus Himself who is to be enthroned there and given His inheritance (Ps. 2: 8) and the authority to judge the nations of the world.  

 

You posted that scripture, but your text does not answer the question: WHERE was Jesus a moment before this? Scriptures show us He was ON EARTH. I think you don't believe these scriptures.

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25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You posted that scripture, but your text does not answer the question: WHERE was Jesus a moment before this? Scriptures show us He was ON EARTH. I think you don't believe these scriptures.

Jesus was at the right hand of the Father who is beyond the created order.

`...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high.` (Heb. 1: 3)

And no one can see that for it is the GODHEAD.

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3 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Matthew 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 

Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
    and he gave gifts to men.”

9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Paul quotes from Psalm 68 in the Ephesians passage.

I agree: an earthquake opened the graves in preparation, then when Jesus rose, He raised up the some of the Old Testament saints. But are these "the elders" seen in the throne room? As you have pointed out, it seems they cannot be.  I can only suggest God can do anything in a vision that might not be reality.

Agreed: when Christ arose, He took the SPIRITS of those held captive in Hades to heaven. ONLY those whom He rose from their graves as seen in Matthew 27 got resurrection bodies. Even that is a guess for John does not tell us.

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Just now, Marilyn C said:

Jesus was at the right hand of the Father who is beyond the created order.

`...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high.` (Heb. 1: 3)

And no one can see that for it is the GODHEAD.

Marilyn, can we PLEASE follow the scriptures instead of human imagination? Stephen SAW both the Father and the Son.

Where was Jesus in Rev. 4? Why did John not see Him at the right hand of the FAther? What was God's purpose in showing this vision with Jesus apparently absent?

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30 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Marilyn, can we PLEASE follow the scriptures instead of human imagination? Stephen SAW both the Father and the Son.

Where was Jesus in Rev. 4? Why did John not see Him at the right hand of the FAther? What was God's purpose in showing this vision with Jesus apparently absent?

Stephen was given a revelation but NOT actually seeing the GODHEAD.

`NO ONE has seen God at any time. ` (1 John 4: 12)

And it is actually Jesus` throne you see in Rev. 4. The Father `sets` it up, however it is the Lord who is exalted to the highest position in all of the created order. This throne is IN the created order whereas the Father`s throne is beyond the created order. It was not created but always was. 

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