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What to make of "the rest of the Beasts" and "a season and a time."


iamlamad

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11 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

China is part of the `Kings of the East.` (Rev. 16: 12)

`Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way for The Kings of the East might be prepared.` (Rev. 16: 12)

This refers obviously to a power-bloc far removed geographically from previous world events. Kings of the `Sunrising` is a closer literal translation. It is the historical designation of nationalities populating the orient. Countries which for centuries have remained isolated from the rest of the world. `Kings of the East` is thus a synonym of the Orient & includes all the principalities of that area.

 

Subsequent upon the defeat of Japan,  (WW2)Communist China emerged as the dominant force in the orient. China certainly has an enormous population, & has made remarkable progress in the production of weapons of war. However, what is predicted and envisaged in Revelation is the mobilization of a giant confederacy of all the oriental countries. China, of course, will take precedence by virtue of their immense man-power. However, their indigenous numerical strength will be augmented by their adjacent ethnological allies.

The army of the Kings of the East will be the largest ever statistically conceived. Two hundred million troops on the road to Armageddon. Imagine the amazement of the Apostle John. At that time the whole population of the entire world barely reached that figure. By way of comparison, during World War 2, fifty million was the maximum number engaged in all armies, both allied and enemy, combined.

In this context a two hundred million combat force certainly presents an incredible numerical concept. However, with the current popu­lation explosion in the Orient, for the first time in history, such a predicted number is not only conceivable but actually available. One has only to walk through the streets of any Chinese town; or travel in a Chinese tram, to encounter an amazing number of armed uniformed troops.

Make no mistake:-

"God has prepared that exact number specifically for this very hour, and day, and month, and year." (Rev. 9:15-16)

The Appointed Time is set!

 

The Overlanders

 

This mighty coalition of oriental powers has, in the predictable future, neither the naval or air force capability to transport such a gigantic force. However, rapid overland transportation through China, and consequent deployment to Armageddon has recently been impressively facilitated.

China Tourism Magazine reports:-

To speed up development of tourism, "Tarmaced" highways have replaced the old camel-tracks meandering paths, air-conditioned deluxe passenger coaches travel at speeds of 120 kilometres per hour, skirting the Gobi desert at altitudes of over 4,000 metres.

From Kashgar, the terminus of the ancient "Silk Road", the newly engineered Karakoram Highway climbs over the Khunerjab Pass which like a sentinel commands, at 4,785 metres altitude, access into Pakistan and the West.

 

A travel agency in Paris has designed a 28 day trip which follows this legendary Silk Road in its entirety".

 

This ancient "Silk Road" formed a gigantic link from the capital of China, in Han times, to the shores of the Mediterranean Sea.

The way of the Kings of the East has not only been prepared, as predicted; but it has literally been 'paved'!

 

  New Eurasian Continental Bridge

 

Infinitely more significant, however, than even the above-mentioned impressive modernising of the overland highways, are the implica­tions of the immense project just completed. The current issue of 'China Today*, the official monthly publication devoted to promul­gating and eulogizing that country's 'Reconstruction Progress', provides an enthusiastic report :-

"A new Eurasian Continental Bridge is a major accomplishment for the 1990's. The ambitious undertaking was to construct a 'continen­tal bridge' to convey passengers and freight 10,800 kilometres from the eastern coast of China to the Mediterranean and European ports in one smooth continuous operation. Compared to marine naviga­tion this would shorten the distance by 10,000 kilometres, thus saving considerable cost and time.

There are only four continental bridges in the world, this - the newest - commenced operation, as scheduled, in mid 1991. The China section of the trunk railway transverses 4,200 kilometres from Lianyungang on the East China Sea across the entire country to the Alatawa Pass on its Western border frontier. There it connects with the already established railroad system to the Mediterranean and Europe. (See map of China and Railroads)

Lianyungang was designated in 1985, as the eastern terminal of this project. Since then fabrication of ultra-modern dock facilities have been especially designed and constructed uniquely for this purpose. The port is capable of handling containers, and providing other consignment facilities simultaneously and expeditiously.

Xuzhou, 230 kilometres to the west, is the communications hub and crossroads of the Eurasian Continental Bridge. This terminal integrates into the system the trunk railways from the northern provinces routed through Beijing; together with those from Shang­hai and the south. Xuzhou railway station, completed 1991 extends over 11.5 kilometres, with a remarkable fully automated transport capacity. Direct trains pass through every 2 or 3 minutes -passenger and freight trains operating on separate individual lines. Xuzhou was, and is a strategic military site in both current and modem times."

 

The phenomenal significance of this extensively planned, compe­tently executed and efficiently operated Eurasian Continental Bridge is startlingly obvious, with particular contemporary connotations.

 

The 'Way of the Kings of the East' to Armageddon is no longer an ancient prophecy, an obscure prediction, or an academic theory, but is a stark evident reality. This is such an obvious sign of the fulfilment of the prophecies of the Bible, that even the most bigoted sceptic cannot fail to be so impressed. Consider:-

 

 

1.A modem efficient multi-terminal port is already available for the speedy disembarkation of China's Oriental allies:- i.e. the rest of the 'Kings of the East'.

 

2. The New Eurasian Continental Bridge east-west trunk railway will provide expeditious and speedy transport all the way to Arma­geddon;

 

(a)Facilities for the full complement of troops specifically designated in the Biblical prophecy - Revelation 9:16.

(b) Separate railtracks for simultaneous transport of their tanks, guns and other armaments of a modem mechanised army.

                                          Dried Up River Bed

 

The Euphrates River has consistently figured prominently in, and invariably presented a formidable barrier for, the Great Empires of the past. This caused by its geographical location bisecting, as it does, the whole of the Middle East from North to South, plus its remarkable length. It originates in Turkey and flows practically three thousand kilometres to the Persian Gulf at Iraq, and is virtually devoid of fordable crossings. Symbolically, as well as practically, it has always been considered the ancient demarcation line between East and West.

 

Rudyard Kipling, England's first Nobel prize winner, encapsulated it concisely in his "Ballad".

"East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet".

God has ordained and predicted that there will be a meeting on a massive and far-reaching scale. A specific and unmistakable sign will precisely indicate the time-slot.

"The Great River Euphrates was 'Dried up' to prepare the way for the Kings of the East" (Rev. 16:12)

The "Gap" project is one of the most ambitious programs ever undertaken in Turkey. It is an integrated project involving the building of a series of dams and hydroelectric power plants on the Euphrates and Tigris rivers.

 

The Turkish Government advises:-

"When completed it will supply fifty percent of their electrical power and irrigate nearly two million hectares of land in the south-east plains surrounding the rivers (see Gulf Area Map). There will be eleven large dams on the river Euphrates. The Ataturk Dam has already been completed."

As a direct result of this achievement, intensive condemnation was forcefully expressed by the nations downstream. The Baghdad correspondent of the Melbourne Sun-Herald quoted from the official newspaper 'Al-Thawra':-

The Iraqi Government has lodged very strong diplomatic com­plaints. The River Euphrates was diverted for thirty days to fill this new dam in Turkey. The once fertile fields of wheat and barley in the Euphrates basin are dried-up wastelands and desert".

 

Currently relations between Syria and Turkey are severely strained for the same reason. In spite of this the remaining extensive projects of this 'Gap' program are progressing on schedule. The River Euphrates is drying up. The stage is set for the Kings of the East. 

  It is later than we think!

China is part of the `Kings of the East.`   Maybe and maybe NOT: they could be the kings and troops of all the "stan" nations in the east. Thinking it is China is only a guess.

includes all the principalities of that area.  Maybe, but maybe not. Since Islam is going to figure much in the endtime scenario, I think it is all the Muslim nations East of the River.

Two hundred million troops  Marilyn, can we PLEASE follow the scriptures? The 200 millions comes at the 6th trumpet, in the first half of the week - NOT at Armageddon. Anyway, the chances are GREAT that the 200 million horsemen are ANGELS.

(Rev. 9:15-16)  Right, at the 6th trumpet in the first half of the week. Thank you. NOT at Armageddon.

consequent deployment to Armageddon  MYTH: the 200 million are in the first half of the week. John gives us NO NUMBER for the Kings of the East.

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5 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Stephen was given a revelation but NOT actually seeing the GODHEAD.

`NO ONE has seen God at any time. ` (1 John 4: 12)

And it is actually Jesus` throne you see in Rev. 4. The Father `sets` it up, however it is the Lord who is exalted to the highest position in all of the created order. This throne is IN the created order whereas the Father`s throne is beyond the created order. It was not created but always was. 

Sorry, but there are over a dozen verses telling us that God the father is on the throne and Jesus rose to sit at His right hand. Therefore it was the Father on the throne, not the Son.  This vision was to show John that at the time, Jesus was STILL ON EARTH. 

Question: does this verse contradict when Moses saw God? Does it contradict when Isaiah saw God? Does it contradict when Ezekiel saw God?

We know that ALL scripture is truth, so how do you reconcile these?

How can the Father's throne be so far exalted above - when Jesus went to sit and His right hand? Are you using human imagination here?

By the way, it does not sound like a vision:  " And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. "

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28 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but there are over a dozen verses telling us that God the father is on the throne and Jesus rose to sit at His right hand. Therefore it was the Father on the throne, not the Son.  This vision was to show John that at the time, Jesus was STILL ON EARTH. 

Question: does this verse contradict when Moses saw God? Does it contradict when Isaiah saw God? Does it contradict when Ezekiel saw God?

We know that ALL scripture is truth, so how do you reconcile these?

How can the Father's throne be so far exalted above - when Jesus went to sit and His right hand? Are you using human imagination here?

By the way, it does not sound like a vision:  " And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. "

They were given a revelation, BUT NOT the actual.

`No one has seen God at any time...` (John 1: 18)

`Jesus said ....`Not that anyone has seen the Father except He who is from the Father...` (John 6: 46)

As I said before those who have `seen` the Father, have been given a revelation of Him, otherwise God is contracting Himself.

King Solomon said - `Behold heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain you...` (1 Kings. 8: 27)

God was before everything He created.

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11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Marilyn, where in the world have you been? Is this time for that proverbial turnip truck?

Jesus came to earth to become MAN! (though He was still very much a part of the godhead.)

John tells us in a covert way that ONLY A MAN could be qualified to take the book and open the seals.

Can you see it now? For all of "time" up to 2 BC or so, God was NOT man. He BECAME man by being born of a virgin.

John further covertly tells us that only a man who can CONQUER DEATH (of His own power) could qualify to take the book and open the seals.

Can you see it now? Jesus was NOT qualified as a preincarnate God. He was NOT qualified as the SON of God walking the earth. He was still not qualified after He died for our sins. No, He had to "prevail" over death first before He was qualified.

In other words, Jesus FINALLY was qualified to take the book and open the seals AFTER He rose from the dead.

BTW The Lord was and is in the GODHEAD, that is why no man was found in the big search  And the GODHEAD is BEYOND all created realms. No, you are miles from the truth. You amaze me! GOD took on human flesh - and became a man. People could TOUCH Him! (Imagine touching God!) "no man was found" simply because of TIME: Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead. But after that first search John watched ending in failure, the angels started another search, and over that time, Jesus rose from the dead - so THEN was found worthy.

 

This is far too personal. Please refrain from such in the future or you will be removed from the thread.

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10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

That is simply not true. I backed up everything I said from scripture. For example, in Rev. 4 you all know John saw the Father on the throne but did not see the Son at the right hand of the Father.

You all know by now that angels conducted a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals, but that search ended in failure and John wrote "no man was found."

You all know the scripture in chapter 5 where suddenly Jesus appeared in the throne room where He was not the moment before: as a lamb having been slain. And then just as He had promised the disciples, He sent the Holy Spirit down as soon as He ascended.  You wish to make this future ( I don't know what date you would choose) but I submit that from the scriptures God is showing us that Jesus took the book from the Father as soon as He ascended.

I think the problem is, many people read these verses with preconceived glasses on. They simply cannot believe that there was a time when Jesus Christ was NOT worthy to take the book.

So basically what you are claiming is that the search the angels conducted took place over many years prior to the Lord appearing at the right hand of the Father in 95 AD?

Such a perspective would invalidate that the things shown John from 4:1 on constitute the hereafter. I believe the statement that no one was found either living or dead or in heaven capable of opening the seals is the way one knows what the situation is with everyone past and then present. It did not take time to then review everyone to see if anyone was worthy to open the seals. Everyone's facts were already known, thereby making the statement rhetorical to show the reader who was worthy to open the seven seals.

 

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On 10/16/2019 at 12:21 PM, iamlamad said:

Most people thing John wrote "i will show you ONLY things which must be hereafter." The truth is, there is no "only" in that verse. God therefore could have shown John 2 or three events of the future, and finished the book with dozens of recipes for manna, and He would not have violated this verse. The truth is, God DID show John events that were "hereafter." But it is also true, God also showed John some events even of his, John's past. It is also very true, most people read over chapters 4 & 5 and totally miss what God is doing there.

You see, God had a problem: He wanted to introduce John to the book, sealed with 7 seals, but it is now 95 AD as you said. God wanted to start this introduction while the book was still in the hand of the Father. When was that? It was before Christ rose from the dead. So God had to come up with a way  - in the vision - so John and then all the readers, would know this was history to John, not future.

I studied these chapters for a few weeks, and finally got stuck on John weeping much. (It was the Holy Spirit, not me.) I could not seem to get away from that. I asked God why we needed to know that John wept, and why much? Finally He spoke and said only “It shows timing.” I heard His voice again, but this time recognized it was in my spirit.

I studied these chapters another couple of weeks, and could not find “timing” anywhere, so was frequently bugging God. Finally He spoke again and said, “it also show the movement of time.” I studied diligently, but I could not find any “movement of time” anywhere!

Finally God had mercy on me and spoke again:  “I will ask you three questions. Until you can answer them correctly you will never understand this part of John’s vision.” Then He asked me three questions.

This won’t be exactly word for word, for it has been a few years now, but it will be close.

1.“At the time John saw this vision, I had been back in heaven for years. There are a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. The first question then, Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?”

I answered, “I cannot answer that question.” Again He spoke.

2.“John watched a search to find one worthy to break the seals, end in failure, and that is the very reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals.. Why then was I not found in that first search?”
 
Again I answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3.“If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Again I said that I could not answer His question. He did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking, and bugging God for help.

Finally after two or three weeks of intense study, suddenly I heard His voice again! He said, “go and study chapter 12.” I did not want to. I was in an intense study of chapters 4 & 5, and the last thing I wanted to do was to go to another chapter. However, I was obedient, and flipped the pages to chapter 12. When I got my bible opened to chapter 12, He spoke again.

“Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.” So I counted, 32 times.

I replied, “I see that this chapter is about the dragon. I counted 32 times.” He spoke again.

“I also chose to show John how the dragon attempted to to kill me as a child. Those first five verses were a history lesson for John.”

I let that sink in, and suddenly He said, “now you can go back to chapters 4 & 5.”

I was amazed. I flipped back to the vision of the throne room, and in just a few minutes had the answer to all three questions! The key I needed was “history lesson.” I suddenly realized that John was looking into the throne room of the past, to a time perhaps just after Jesus was put in the tomb.

Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the father, for at that time was still on the earth or under the earth. From eternities past to eternities future, there has only been one small period of time where Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father, and that was while He was on earth. “No man was found” because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to be found worthy. Finally, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

Then, as we read into chapter 5, we see that another search was begun as soon as the other search had ended in failure. But this time someone was found! Someone came up to John and told him to stop weeping, for someone had been found worthy. What had changed? TIME passed. Jesus prevailed over death: He rose from the dead. And was then found worthy to take the book and open the seals. We can see time passing here. Then John turned and saw a Lamb, having been slain. John got to see in vision form, the moment Jesus ascended, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Once Mary left Him, He ascended and entered the throne room, and John got to see this in the vision! Then we read that He came with the Holy Spirit, who was immediately sent down to the earth.

This vision of the throne room sets the contest for the seals. When did Jesus ascend? Somewhere around 32 AD. The moment Jesus entered the throne room the first thing He did was get the scroll from the right hand of the Father and begin breaking the seals. No one can find 2000 years between any of these verses, because it is not there. The intent of the Author was to show that the first seals were broken about 32 AD.

This is God's purpose in chapters 4 & 5: God is setting the contest for the first seals.

Did you ever count how many times John used the color white? It was 17 times. And 16 times it was clearly to represent righteousness. It would be silly to think that in the 17th time (the white horse) it would be to show evil. What entity then on earth was righteous in the eyes of God? It can be nothing else but the infant church, sent out with the gospel of our Lord.  OF COURSE there would be overcoming or conquering, for Satan was and still is the god of this world. He would fight to keep the gospel from expanding out from Samaria to the world.  So the first seal was God sending out the church with the gospel.

Seals 2, 3, and 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age.

Seal 6 starts the Day of the Lord and God's wrath, so the rapture MUST come before the 6th seal, but must be after the 5th seal.

Your 1st question as to why John did not immediately see the Lord sitting next to the Father could be any number of reasons, except for your which claims because Jesus had yet to ascend to sit at the right hand of the Father.

As to your second question in which mention is made that no living or dead on the earth, or anyone in heaven was found worthy to open the seals, I answered in my previous post to you, in which it is a rhetorical statement in order to instruct the reader that only the some decades earlier sacrificed lamb, Jesus was worthy to open the seals.

As to your third question about why the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room: First, no mention of a throne room in heaven is made. Heaven in Johns vision in Rev 4 is wide open with a sea of glass like crystal, along with many elders on 24 seats, and other beasts. Second, even if the Holy Spirit were in heaven before John, this would not limit Gods Holy Spirit from being in more than one place. The Lords Holy Spirit is everywhere.

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1 hour ago, luigi said:

Your 1st question as to why John did not immediately see the Lord sitting next to the Father could be any number of reasons, except for your which claims because Jesus had yet to ascend to sit at the right hand of the Father.

As to your second question in which mention is made that no living or dead on the earth, or anyone in heaven was found worthy to open the seals, I answered in my previous post to you, in which it is a rhetorical statement in order to instruct the reader that only the some decades earlier sacrificed lamb, Jesus was worthy to open the seals.

As to your third question about why the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room: First, no mention of a throne room in heaven is made. Heaven in Johns vision in Rev 4 is wide open with a sea of glass like crystal, along with many elders on 24 seats, and other beasts. Second, even if the Holy Spirit were in heaven before John, this would not limit Gods Holy Spirit from being in more than one place. The Lords Holy Spirit is everywhere.

It could be any number of reasons  Keep in mind, this is EXACTLY what God wanted John to see. So we have to ask ourselves for what purpose would God show John a vision of the throne room (in 95 AD) where the Father was there but the SON was not seen. Also keep in mind, the SON is the main character in the entire New Testament. Also keep in mind, we have over a dozen verses telling that at the right hand of the Father is exactly where Jesus went to be - and Stephen SAW Him there - so a reader perhaps would expect John to see Jesus at the right hand of the Father.   Two thing we know: Jesus was seen at the right hand of the Father, and while Jesus was on the earth, He was could not have been at the right hand of the Father.

For the second question, we must keep in mind it was God's purpose to show John a search that ended in failure.  After study, anyone could determine that Jesus could not be qualified to take the book until He rose from the dead. It is written, the Lion of the tribe of Judah "has prevailed" to open the seals. So what did Jesus prevail over that no other man ever could? Of course, the answer is death: Jesus is the first man ever (and there will never be another) that escaped out of hell under His own power - as He said - He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again. Any reader could then surmise that it was death that Jesus prevailed over to become qualified and worthy to take the book.

Now God has given us two events that seem to point to a time in John's history BEFORE Christ rose from the dead. Next, God showed John Jesus suddenly appeared in the throne room "as a lamb having been slain." I think it was written like that to give the impression that He looked very much like a slain lamb that had just came to life. And the next thing John wrote was that the Holy Spirit was then immediately sent down. All these things are pointing us to a certain point in time.  We all KNOW that Jesus ascended into heaven after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. It seems God showed this passage to John to remind him that Jesus DID ascend and sent the Holy Spirit down.

no mention of a throne room in heaven is made. Here is what John wrote:

...behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

You are right, no mention of a ROOM. We get that idea from Isaiah when He saw the throne and said "His train filled the temple." We know then that God's throne is in a temple. Actually, many people over the past 20 or 30 years have been in the throne room and came back to earth to describe it.  It must be a very huge room, for John saw this crowd, too large to number there around the throne.

It is not just one point, that John saw the Holy Spirit there in chapter 4, we must add to that that in chapter 5 John wrote that the Holy Spirit was sent down. To me this is pointing to a certain TIME. WHEN did Jesus ascend? WHEN was the Holy Spirit sent down? I always write, "around 32 AD."

Finally, it just makes sense that since this book once opened would end up kicking Satan of the throne as god of this world, Jesus would not waste any time, but as soon as He ascended, He would take the book and begin opening the seals. Some, but not all of the commentators say that the first seal represents the gospel.

 

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2 hours ago, luigi said:

So basically what you are claiming is that the search the angels conducted took place over many years prior to the Lord appearing at the right hand of the Father in 95 AD?

Such a perspective would invalidate that the things shown John from 4:1 on constitute the hereafter. I believe the statement that no one was found either living or dead or in heaven capable of opening the seals is the way one knows what the situation is with everyone past and then present. It did not take time to then review everyone to see if anyone was worthy to open the seals. Everyone's facts were already known, thereby making the statement rhetorical to show the reader who was worthy to open the seven seals.

I personally think this search for one worthy had been ongoing - perhaps since Adam - or at least for a long time. As soon as a search finished, another was started.

would invalidate that the things shown John from 4:1 on constitute the hereafter.  It seems you are fixated on "hereafter." Again, God did not say ONLY hereafter as you seem to imagine. God DID show John things in the hereafter, just as He said He would. Showing John something of the past would not be against showing John things of the future. In reality only a very small percent of the book was about history.  I remind you of Jesus' words to me in chapter 12: "this was a 'history lesson' to John." I did not come up with those words, HE did.

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3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It could be any number of reasons  Keep in mind, this is EXACTLY what God wanted John to see. So we have to ask ourselves for what purpose would God show John a vision of the throne room (in 95 AD) where the Father was there but the SON was not seen. Also keep in mind, the SON is the main character in the entire New Testament. Also keep in mind, we have over a dozen verses telling that at the right hand of the Father is exactly where Jesus went to be - and Stephen SAW Him there - so a reader perhaps would expect John to see Jesus at the right hand of the Father.   Two thing we know: Jesus was seen at the right hand of the Father, and while Jesus was on the earth, He was could not have been at the right hand of the Father.

For the second question, we must keep in mind it was God's purpose to show John a search that ended in failure.  After study, anyone could determine that Jesus could not be qualified to take the book until He rose from the dead. It is written, the Lion of the tribe of Judah "has prevailed" to open the seals. So what did Jesus prevail over that no other man ever could? Of course, the answer is death: Jesus is the first man ever (and there will never be another) that escaped out of hell under His own power - as He said - He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again. Any reader could then surmise that it was death that Jesus prevailed over to become qualified and worthy to take the book.

Now God has given us two events that seem to point to a time in John's history BEFORE Christ rose from the dead. Next, God showed John Jesus suddenly appeared in the throne room "as a lamb having been slain." I think it was written like that to give the impression that He looked very much like a slain lamb that had just came to life. And the next thing John wrote was that the Holy Spirit was then immediately sent down. All these things are pointing us to a certain point in time.  We all KNOW that Jesus ascended into heaven after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. It seems God showed this passage to John to remind him that Jesus DID ascend and sent the Holy Spirit down.

no mention of a throne room in heaven is made. Here is what John wrote:

...behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

You are right, no mention of a ROOM. We get that idea from Isaiah when He saw the throne and said "His train filled the temple." We know then that God's throne is in a temple. Actually, many people over the past 20 or 30 years have been in the throne room and came back to earth to describe it.  It must be a very huge room, for John saw this crowd, too large to number there around the throne.

It is not just one point, that John saw the Holy Spirit there in chapter 4, we must add to that that in chapter 5 John wrote that the Holy Spirit was sent down. To me this is pointing to a certain TIME. WHEN did Jesus ascend? WHEN was the Holy Spirit sent down? I always write, "around 32 AD."

Finally, it just makes sense that since this book once opened would end up kicking Satan of the throne as god of this world, Jesus would not waste any time, but as soon as He ascended, He would take the book and begin opening the seals. Some, but not all of the commentators say that the first seal represents the gospel.

 

There's really no more I can say other than I believe the events in Revelation 4:1 forward to 22 to represent hereafter events, and not one where Christ is still on earth in Revelation 4. Bye for now, gotta go out.

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13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

They were given a revelation, BUT NOT the actual.

`No one has seen God at any time...` (John 1: 18)

`Jesus said ....`Not that anyone has seen the Father except He who is from the Father...` (John 6: 46)

As I said before those who have `seen` the Father, have been given a revelation of Him, otherwise God is contracting Himself.

King Solomon said - `Behold heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain you...` (1 Kings. 8: 27)

God was before everything He created.

Is it possible the meaning is, no one has seen the father face to face, or clearly?  No one, not Moses, not Isaiah, nor Ezekiel saw Him face to face or even clearly.  Some saw him like from a distance on the throne. 

On the other hand, they call COULD have been visions.

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