The parable of the Tares

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, eileenhat said:

Separating Believers from Non Believers

The separating of the wheat from the tares references the first judgement by Jesus of earth's inhabitants. 

There are two levels of judgement.  Those that are apostate and those that are lukewarm.  Perhaps others see this differently.  I got my information from insights etc.

Revelations states it slightly differently by referencing the judgement of the wicked (those that the demons like locusts torture for five months) and also mentions judging the 7 churches (Rev. 2 and 3) with only one church, the Church of Philadelphia being saved.  I don't see a separation of judgement between the apostate/pagans/heathens/non believers and the lukewarm christians listed in Revelations.

Timing by going by the trumpets is hard to do. 

I instead begin with the Daniel's 70 weeks/70 years (knowing the start date helps for this one, ie. Date the UN formed.. hint) which gets us to the right month/year (I discovered in my own work) or better yet, knowing the date of the nation's desolation by an abomination brought by the son of perdition (which is May 9th, 2012 when Obama announced gay marriage gives you that date...a revelation the Lord revealed to me) gets you to the exact day of the saint's souls resurrection (3 1/2 years past obama's announcement date or 1260 years, but that is not entirely correct.  The lord gave me an insight to use the Jewish calendar here which gives you 1270 days for Oct. 31st, 2015).

So to answer your question as to when judgement for the apostate or lukewarm takes place, it actually isn't listed in Revelations.  We have to assume it is all happening concurrently, during Jacob's 7 years of tribulation, if we are just using the Bible as our only source of information because it is a mystery that God must reveal.  That means it is unknown as in hidden from our view.

Now that I have stated all that, lets take a look at what we can date from the trumpets.

5Th Trumpet

Rev. 9:1-3

"Then the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and it was given the key to the pit of the Abyss.  The star opened the pit of the Abyss, and smoke rose out of it like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the pit.  And out of the smoke, locusts descended on the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth."

I mentioned the demons like locusts already above.  That event comes prior to the saint's souls resurrecting in Rev. 20:4.  So that means 2014-2015 time frame (based on that date I gave above, ie. Oct. 31st. 2015 for their souls resurrecting here on earth) for these demons to have appeared here on earth (for 5 months) and tortured the wicked (which means witches).  But you can not witness them, the demons, as they are unclean spirits and thus went unnoticed by the masses when they arrived.   I just happened to catch it because the Lord pointed it out clearly to me at the time, though it took years for me to fully comprehend what was occurring.

Next: 6th Trumpet

The bible gives us the right wording for the judgement of the church of Philadelphia (I see this as the USA which was founded in that same exact city) here with the final 6th trumpet : "And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number." Rev. 9:16).  You probably missed that number because it did not make any sense but that is due to lack of information from the Church.  You have to do some digging to understand that number, ie. 200 million souls.  Ex:.  The Caucasian population of the USA in 2013 was 245 million per wikipedia minus 44 million of them children under the age of 14 which equals, yup 200 million.   mmmm

My hypothesis is that there was a foot soldier from God for every soul judged.  Those that were apostate were judged.  I have already posted several times this was a soul judgement and not a physical judgement as Rev. 20:4 reveals in its wording about the saint's souls being resurrected (only).  So another mystery there as well.

About all I can say for this post is that you have an incredible imagination! 

You started out in error by mentioning (and believing) the date the UN was formed - and imagining that has anything to do with any scripture. Eileen, the 70th week is FUTURE to us today. The "saints" won't even see it because Paul's rapture will come before the week begins.  Always remember, rapture first, wrath after. The entire 70th week is God's wrath: therefore Paul's rapture will come before.  Did you notice that the great crowd, too large to number - the just raptured church -  is in Rev. 7, but John does not even start the 70th week until chapter 8?

[iamlamad]

12 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Please take no offense in this, But the Problem with your view is that complicates the simplicity of the Word of God. The Parable of the wheat and the tares is a simple agricultural analogy. The Apostles were not theologians they were fishermen, and tax collectors, and men who worked with their hands. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: (1 Cor. 1;26) The reason for this is plain in the verses that follow this That no flesh should glory in his presence. (1 cor 1:29)

 Jesus Clearly and simply explains the parable in verses 37-43 of Matthew 13.... He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

We who receive his Word are the seed, we are planted in this world. This analogy is elaborated on by the Apostle Paul. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. ( 1 Cor 15;35-38)

The Kernel of seed must die before it can produce life, If it does not die it just rots. The seed of the Wicked one is cast along with the good seed, and they grow up together in the field (the World), and lest they uproot the wheat they are allowed to remain together. The Key that ties this Parable of Jesus to Rev. 14 is who it is that does the harvesting. The Angels. "the reapers are the angels". For wheat to be harvested, it must first be cut, and then gathered. On the trail that I walk on there was a wheat field this summer, that was "white" and ripe. One day I walked there the wheat was cut and lying in the field, (air drying produces the best wheat) then 3 days later another tractor came and gathered the wheat. The harvest is always a two step process, of cutting and gathering. Rev. 14 is the cutting, the rapture is the Gathering, But the Tares amongst the wheat, the false converts are also in that field and must be burned.

Because the wheat grows taller than the tares that are around it, and only the fruit is at the top of the stalk once that field was cut, only the weeds remained in the field and the stubble of the wheat plants themselves. The farmer then killed the weeds with herbicides, and plowed the field. They used to use fire to burn the fields....  

The church age is not the tribulation, The church age is the time for the field to grow. I Have heard many say this of the church age and it is incorrect, according to this parable. The Tribulum is a tool used to separate the wheat from the chaff, by beating, this is a separate analogy at work here. This is why the church must enter the tribulation in my opinion, and is the purpose of the "wilderness of tribulation". Again, all of these are simple agricultural analogies used that the common person of the day could understand. In the analogy of wheat and chaff, chaff is like the sinful flesh that conceals the kernels of wheat in us, The tribulation separates us from that sinful flesh.

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, he is reigning in heaven sitting on his throne in heaven.... quite frankly I do not even recognize what you have written here as biblical. Stephen saw Jesus in heaven upon his throne. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. Yes, Satan is the god of this world (2 cor. 4:4), But his power is limited by the omnipotence of almighty God. The Kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ at the end of the age, at the last trump. (Rev. 11:15)

There is a Spiritual Kingdom and an earthly Kingdom, the Spiritual is already won by Christ on the cross, and we become members of that Spiritual Kingdom, the earthly kingdom, on the other hand, is to come which is the millennial reign of Christ. "Thy kingdom come, they will be done On earth as it is in heaven" is what he taught us to pray. His Kingdom IS in heaven, His Kingdom is to come on earth. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36) And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:29-30)     

DH, if you believe you will go through the tribulation, or part of it, I believe God will honor your belief and you will go through it.  However, the bride of Christ according to Paul is going to be raptured before any of the "tribulation" or 70th week. Study to show yourself approved. Perhaps you will gain faith for a pretrib rapture.

Have you thought about the different groups of people in the book of Revelation? There is the 144,000; in relation to others, a very small group. There will be the beheaded: again a very small group in comparison. (I think most of those who turn to God during the week will be beheaded.)

Then, there is this awesome group, too large to number - the raptured Bride of Christ. Included in that number will be around 50 generations of believers all in one place at one time, PLUS all the children alive at the time of the rapture. It will, indeed, be a group too large to number - numbering into the billions. (It would take almost 32 years just to count to one billion.) Then there is a second very large group, but John did not mention them: the resurrection of the Old Testament saints. This too will be a huge number, but John did not see their resurrection so did not write of it.

What am I saying? That HUGE group of people in Rev. 7 is the raptured church seen in heaven; raptured just a moment before that great earthquake of the 6th seal. In comparison, when does John start the 70th week? That would be the next event: the 7th seal. Paul's rapture is clearly PRETRIB.

I believe FAITH (Belief) will have much to do with the rapture. I think those that believe they must go through the "trib" or 70th week will indeed go through it. I also believe those that believe Jesus can come at any moment will be caught up pretrib. I think scripture backs this up. God caused John to see this great crowd, too large to number, in chapter 7, not in chapter 16!

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, dhchristian.

Thank you for your candor, but you've mistaken the 3.5 years as part of the Times of the Gentiles (Goyim). The first 3.5 years (the "ministry" of the Messiah during His First Advent) was an OFFER OF THE KINGDOM to Israel. The elders of the tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") rejected that offer, and the Messiah left them "desolate." The second half, following the 2,000-year Tribulation period, will also be an offer of the Kingdom to Israel, and this time, they shall accept that offer.

In the First Advent, Yeshua` came as haMashiyach ben Yosef (the Messiah son of Joseph), the Suffering and Dying Messiah (the Lamb of God). When He comes in the Second Advent, Yeshua` will come as haMashiyach ben Daviyd (the Messiah son of David), the Conquering and Reigning Messiah (the Lion of the tribe of Yhudah).

There's also a little thing called "heaven" that's a MISNOMER. The REAL word in the Greek, ouranos, refers to the "sky," the "atmosphere" of this planet! There is NO "rapture to heaven" because there is no "heaven!" We shall be raptured into the "heaven" - into the "sky" - to be transported to the Messiah who has gone on before us to begin the battle against the enemies of Israel!

Furthermore, there's no difference between the "church" and the house of Israel. Therefore, "the saints of the church" cannot be removed! Yeshua` just gets back to earth, and He LEAVES AGAIN?! No, that makes no sense! He's here to reign over the house of Israel!!! That's the purpose for which He's the "Messiah," the "Christ!" He is the ONE who is "Anointed" by God to be the King of Israel:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. (Greek: Ieesous, the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew Yeeshuwa`) 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. ..."

And, that's the TRUE "gospel" that was proclaimed EARLY in the Lord's offer of the Kingdom:

Matthew 2:1-2 (KJV)

1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2 Saying,

"Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship (bend the knee to) him."

Matthew 4:23 (KJV)

23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching (heralding) the gospel (good news) of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

His ability to heal was God's validation of this message and endorsement for His Son.

Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching (heralding) the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying,

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand (within your grasp): repent ye, and believe the gospel."

The Jews already KNEW this "gospel," this "good news!" They read it at least once EVERY YEAR!

Isaiah 52:7 (KJV)

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings (gospel), that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings (gospel) of good, that publisheth salvation (rescue); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Also, remember what Yeshua` said about His Second Coming:

Luke 19:11-15ff (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,
'Occupy till I come.'

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,
'We will not have this man to reign over us!' 

15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. ..."

So, His Kingdom doesn't begin until He returns! We also find ...

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

He is NOT currently reigning, not on earth (even in His churches) and certainly not in "heaven!"

Revelation 14 is NOT about "the Wheat and the Tares" parable. That is reserved for Yeshua`s description!

I would guess, since you don't believe in a place called heaven, where God lives, that He will not allow you to see it. After all, what we get from heaven comes through faith. If you wish to remain here on earth, I think God will grant what you are believing for.

What did Paul write?

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven ( ouranos ).

Then Paul continued:

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

In other words, your argument fails: "Ouranos" is used for the first heaven (where the birds fly), the second heaven (Space - above our atmosphere), and the third heaven (where God dwells).

Why don't you think Jesus reigns over his body on earth -  the spiritual kingdom of God?

there's no difference between the "church" and the house of Israel.  Your imagination is off here. When Paul wrote of "the church" he was speaking of born again humans, either Jew or Greek. They are MOST CERTAINLY separated from "the house of Israel:" which is made up of humans NOT born again, even though descendants of Jacob.

"the saints of the church" cannot be removed! Yeshua` just gets back to earth, and He LEAVES AGAIN?  What are you talking about? I don't even know!  He comes next FOR His church, then comes 7 plus years later WITH His church, and then STAYS for 1000 years.  Why would anyone imagine He would leave again?

that's the TRUE "gospel" that was proclaimed EARLY in the Lord's offer of the Kingdom:  True: that was the "gospel of the Kingdom." (speaking of the physical kingdom when it finally gets here.) Paul's Gospel is different: we are to be judged by Paul's gospel, not the gospel of the Kingdom. The gospel of the Kingdom is for the descendants of Jacob. Paul's gospel was and is for anyone who can believe that through the death and resurrection of our Lord they can be born again.  What was the basis for the gospel of the Kingdom? That Jesus was the long awaited Messiah, who is coming back to set up an earthly kingdom that will last forever.

I guess you missed this:

John 18:36

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus certainly did have a kingdom "now" in his days: but it was a SPIRITUAL kingdom in the hearts of believers.

I disagree with much of what you wrote here.

[dhchristian]

45 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

DH, if you believe you will go through the tribulation, or part of it, I believe God will honor your belief and you will go through it.  However, the bride of Christ according to Paul is going to be raptured before any of the "tribulation" or 70th week. Study to show yourself approved. Perhaps you will gain faith for a pretrib rapture.

Have you thought about the different groups of people in the book of Revelation? There is the 144,000; in relation to others, a very small group. There will be the beheaded: again a very small group in comparison. (I think most of those who turn to God during the week will be beheaded.)

Then, there is this awesome group, too large to number - the raptured Bride of Christ. Included in that number will be around 50 generations of believers all in one place at one time, PLUS all the children alive at the time of the rapture. It will, indeed, be a group too large to number - numbering into the billions. (It would take almost 32 years just to count to one billion.) Then there is a second very large group, but John did not mention them: the resurrection of the Old Testament saints. This too will be a huge number, but John did not see their resurrection so did not write of it.

What am I saying? That HUGE group of people in Rev. 7 is the raptured church seen in heaven; raptured just a moment before that great earthquake of the 6th seal. In comparison, when does John start the 70th week? That would be the next event: the 7th seal. Paul's rapture is clearly PRETRIB.

I believe FAITH (Belief) will have much to do with the rapture. I think those that believe they must go through the "trib" or 70th week will indeed go through it. I also believe those that believe Jesus can come at any moment will be caught up pretrib. I think scripture backs this up. God caused John to see this great crowd, too large to number, in chapter 7, not in chapter 16!

I Agree with you in Part, but I Only see one rapture/resurrection during this final week, and then the second resurrection at the end of the Millennium. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:5-6) 

There is only one resurrection that matters, and part of the problem is that there are many resurrections spoken of in revelation that either mean multiple resurrections, as you see it or One resurrection as I see it on the day of Christ. If You remember our previous discussions, I agree with you on the sixth seal Rapture, But I also see a "last trump" rapture, which is concurrent with the rapture of the two witnesses, which in my opinion is also concurrent with the resurrection of the Old testament saints, and those who are beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast. 

Our differences boil down to how we organize the revelation. I see it as a series of visions all leading to the day of the Lord, You add parenthesis where you see a jump back, I use descriptives from the Word of God to what the day of the LORD "looks like" and find those descriptives in revelation as transition points between visions. The exact order is a undiscernible to the intellect, only by the Holy Ghost and revelation can that order be understood. 

Think of it this way, If I was to write an Epic novel of a great battle on a vast battlefield (The earth), I would first tell the story of Army A, and what it did to reach the end, and then army B and what it did to reach the end, and then army C etc.... Well army A and army B may have been fighting different battles at different times, but there is no way to put a chronology to them without being able to view the whole battle from heaven. This takes Spiritual eyes to see. 

For me, there is only one resurrection, in the final week seen from numerous perspectives, as per rev. 20:5-6, this is the "first resurrection" there is only one in the final week. When that is located in the final week is where we have the issue. You see it at the sixth seal, which I agree with you on, I also see it in rev. 4, at the last trump, and in rev. 12, and rev. 14, Allude to in rev. 16 and in Ezekiel 37, etc. all one resurrection, all one Day of Christ, followed by the Day of the LORD, His Wrath on the ungodly and the restoration of Israel, When He stands on the Mount of Olives and splits it in two.

I also use the analogy of a great chronological painting being painted before John By the master artist to describe this. First the artist paints the background from left to right over time (because we read from left to right, could be the other way around) Then he paints more and more details in including the church (ages) in the painting always moving from left to right, and then the seals, from left to right, trumpets from left to right.... etc. How they interact can be only appreciated by stepping back and "Seeing the Whole", and this "Beauty" cannot be rationalized with the mind. 

I Encourage you to try and see this, Because the Beauty of Revelation is not in its complexity and intricacy of brushstrokes which is how most scholars approach and study revelation, but is appreciated by stepping back and admiring the whole picture, The Title of the masterpiece is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, and His Victory".... We are merely a drop of paint in that picture stuck in a small sliver of time in that painting.   

Edited October 11, 2019 by dhchristian

[Dennis1209]

15 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Because when Jesus kills the Beast when he comes in the clouds.

Revelation 19:20 (KJV) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[dhchristian]

Just now, Dennis1209 said:

15 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Because when Jesus kills the Beast when he comes in the clouds.

Revelation 19:20 (KJV) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 thess. 2:8)

Hi Dennis, 

I went through this before on another post, not sure if you followed me on this then, but the Dragon, the Beast and the false prophet are spirits inhabiting host bodies, as Per rev. 16;13-14. When Jesus comes in the clouds, he will destroy the Host bodies of these spirits and then they will go about "hopping" as frogs to the kings of the earth to gather them at Armageddon. It is then that the demons in them will be cast into the lake of fire alive, and the Dragon chained in the bottomless pit later to be cast into the lake of fire. 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Agree with you in Part, but I Only see one rapture/resurrection during this final week, and then the second resurrection at the end of the Millennium. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:5-6) 

There is only one resurrection that matters, and part of the problem is that there are many resurrections spoken of in revelation that either mean multiple resurrections, as you see it or One resurrection as I see it on the day of Christ. If You remember our previous discussions, I agree with you on the sixth seal Rapture, But I also see a "last trump" rapture, which is concurrent with the rapture of the two witnesses, which in my opinion is also concurrent with the resurrection of the Old testament saints, and those who are beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast. 

Our differences boil down to how we organize the revelation. I see it as a series of visions all leading to the day of the Lord, You add parenthesis where you see a jump back, I use descriptives from the Word of God to what the day of the LORD "looks like" and find those descriptives in revelation as transition points between visions. The exact order is a undiscernible to the intellect, only by the Holy Ghost and revelation can that order be understood. 

Think of it this way, If I was to write an Epic novel of a great battle on a vast battlefield (The earth), I would first tell the story of Army A, and what it did to reach the end, and then army B and what it did to reach the end, and then army C etc.... Well army A and army B may have been fighting different battles at different times, but there is no way to put a chronology to them without being able to view the whole battle from heaven. This takes Spiritual eyes to see. 

For me, there is only one resurrection, in the final week seen from numerous perspectives, as per rev. 20:5-6, this is the "first resurrection" there is only one in the final week. When that is located in the final week is where we have the issue. You see it at the sixth seal, which I agree with you on, I also see it in rev. 4, at the last trump, and in rev. 12, and rev. 14, Allude to in rev. 16 and in Ezekiel 37, etc. all one resurrection, all one Day of Christ, followed by the Day of the LORD, His Wrath on the ungodly and the restoration of Israel, When He stands on the Mount of Olives and splits it in two.

I also use the analogy of a great chronological painting being painted before John By the master artist to describe this. First the artist paints the background from left to right over time (because we read from left to right, could be the other way around) Then he paints more and more details in including the church (ages) in the painting always moving from left to right, and then the seals, from left to right, trumpets from left to right.... etc. How they interact can be only appreciated by stepping back and "Seeing the Whole", and this "Beauty" cannot be rationalized with the mind. 

I Encourage you to try and see this, Because the Beauty of Revelation is not in its complexity and intricacy of brushstrokes which is how most scholars approach and study revelation, but is appreciated by stepping back and admiring the whole picture, The Title of the masterpiece is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, and His Victory".... We are merely a drop of paint in that picture stuck in a small sliver of time in that painting.   

DH, You lack understanding on the timing of the two witnesses because you don't believe John used a parenthesis there. I can assure you that 11:4 through 11:13 is a parenthesis and tyhe events in these verses absolutely do not come before the 7th trumpet. Parenthesis have no bearing on chronology. The two witnesses show up right there in verse 3. In other words, they were not on earth a minute before that. They show up then because the man of sin just arrived in Jerusalem.  The truth is, only 3 1/2 days of their testimony is in the first half of the week.

How can you say there is only one resurrection: chapter 20 CLEARLY shows us two: the "first" or primary or chief of resurrections which is for all the righteous, and the "second death" resurrection that is for all the unrighteous a thousand years later.

DH, there is only two places we can go for information on the rapture. That is Paul's writing and John in his gospel and in Revelation. AT the time Paul received revelation knowledge of the rapture, it was a MYSTERY: meaning, no one know anything about it before that. Oh, they all knew that one day there would be a resurrection, but nothing was known about those alive being changed and caught up.  If we stick with these scriptures and these alone, there is only one conclusion: the rapture will and MUST come before wrath. And wrath begins as you know at the 6th seal.

I have always said, if one misses the foundation, all that is built on that foundation will be faulty. The foundation here is what God is showing us in Rev. 4 & 5: showing us the TIMING of the first seals. I guess you imagine, will the vast majority, that the 70th week or "trib" starts at the first seal. You and all the restthat believe that are mistake. They all pull the first seal out of its context.

The truth is, the trib or 70th week does not begin until the 7th seal, right after the rapture and the start of God's wrath.  No one can find God's wrath is seals 1 -5: it is just not there - for that is church age and God is not angry at the church. 

Don't take my word for it, go look it up: the Greek word translated "first" as in the first resurrection can also mean "chief" or "foremost."

NAS: is the great and foremost commandment.   Mat. 22:38

NAS: commandment is the foremost of all?   Mark 12:28

NAS: answered, The foremost is, 'HEAR,   mark 12:29

Don't misunderstand me: it can certainly be used in sequencing as in the first before the second. But which meaning fits this verse best?

Next, if you read carefully, you will discover that John does not give any TIMING for this chief or most honorable of resurrections; only that is comes 1000 years before the next. 

Will you agree that the bible only talks about TWO (2) resurrections - both here in Rev. 20?

Which then of the two would Christ's own resurrection fit under?

Which of the two would the bride of Christ fit under?

Which of the two would the 144,000 fit under?

Which of the two would the beheaded fit under?

Which of the two would the Old Testament saints fit under?

Note carefully, those that believe the first resurrection happens right here, and one point in time  - in the timing of chapter 20 -  are forced to believe in a post-trib rapture.  Yet, there are other scriptures that prove a post-trib rapture cannot be the truth. The only way around this dilemma is to understand that this "first" or most honorable resurrection is not fixed in time, but includes all the righteous for whenever they are resurrected or changed and caught up. Therefore, JESUS was the first to partake of this chief of all resurrections, around 32 AD. The bride of Christ will make up the next wave, just before Wrath begins. The third wave will be the 144,000 around the midpoint of the week.  Then the Old Testament saints will be raised on the last 24 hour day - and with them the beheaded and the two witnesses. ALL of these will be a part of this first or primary resurrection.

I agree with you on the sixth seal Rapture, But I also see a "last trump" rapture  Did Paul speak of TWO raptures for the church? No, only one.  The truth is, Paul's "last trump" rapture WILL BE the 6th seal rapture: one and the same. The "last trump" will be the last trump ever heard in the church age, for the church age will end at the rapture. Without any doubt, the "last trump" will also mark the end of that year's "feast of trumpets."  The feast of trumpets is the one feast where "no man knows the day nor the hour," for it cannot start until the new moon is verified by two witnesses. If it is a cloudy day, it must be put off until the moon is seen.  The 7 trumpets of Revelation is a totally different set of trumpets. Yes, certainly the 7th is the last OF THAT SERIES - but Paul's last trump is of another series. God is not going to send angels to confiscate all trumpets so there can never be another trumpet blast! Anyway, JESUS blows the trump at the rapture ("the trump of God.")

which is concurrent with the rapture of the two witnesses, which in my opinion is also concurrent with the resurrection of the Old testament saints, and those who are beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast.   When you finally discover that all this is at the 7th vial, you will then agree with me. And mark my words, that day will come, when you agree with the parenthesis in 11:4 - 11:13.  You do know that Jesus said He would raise them up (the Old Covenant saints) "on the last day." He said this over and over for emphasis. The 7th vial IS the last day. Note that there is an earthquake mentioned in 11:13 - and it is the very same earthquake as at the 7th vial. Why is it so terrible? It is because God pulls together the particles of those who died before the flood! The particles of those bodies could be miles deep and/or hundreds of miles apart. God will shake the earth violently to bring those bodies together and raise them up.

how we organize the revelation. I see it as a series of visions all leading to the day of the Lord  The problem with your theory is,, that is not the way John wrote it, because that is not the way God showed John the vision. It is indeed IMPOSSIBLE to move any seal away from where John wrote it. Did you understand? IMPOSSIBLE!  It cannot be done. The seals are there for one purpose and one purpose only: to prevent the book from being opened before someone can be found worthy. When you understand that the 70th week is what is INSIDE the book, it makes it impossible to rearrange anything.  In other words, you cannot move the 6th seal to anywhere else in the book. It is simply impossible.  I do agree with you that this is why we disagree.

The exact order is a undiscernible to the intellect  I disagree: the intellect can read it as written and LEAVE IT ALONE! People that insist on rearranging seem to be those who imagine they heard from God.

I would first tell the story of Army A, and what it did to reach the end, and then army B and what it did to reach the end, and then army C etc.  EXACTLY! And that is just what John does with the 5 parallel countdowns to the end of the week in chapters 11 through 13. God made it easy on John because He staggered the beginnings of these 5 countdowns.  God did not show John the entire week for the fleeing, or for the protection, or for the trampling: He only showed us views inside the week with the two witnesses and with the Beast and False Prophet, and did so with parentheses.  In other words, chapter 14 is just after the midpoint - proving that much of chapter 13 is a parenthesis - no bearing on chronology. The chronology in chapter 13 is to the start of the countdown.  I agree in part, this kind of detail comes from the Holy Spirit.  I would not have known the 42 months of trampling will start when the Man of sin arrives in Jerusalem with Gentile armies - except the Holy Spirit revealed it to me.  Your argument here will NOT FIT anywhere else in Revelation: only chapters 11 - 13.  Why? Because there is the start of the 5 countdowns.

this is the "first resurrection" there is only one in the final week. When that is located in the final week is where we have the issue. You see it at the sixth seal,   No, you are mistaken: there IS NO TIMING on "the first resurrection." that is where people go wrong. The timing is on different resurrections: Jesus was first, the bride of Christ will be second, the 144,000 third - and they absolutely will not happen at the same time!  The "first resurrection" exists, but NOT at a certain point IN TIME.

all one Day of Christ   I disagree here too: I don't think Paul was signifying a special day; only calling the DAy of the Lord by two different names. AFter all, Christ is Lord.

"Seeing the Whole"  Most people ignore the BOOK when "seeing the whole."  God's goal is to get that book opened so He can start the trumpet judgments, with the ultimate goal of the 7th trumpet, for there Satan gets dethroned after 6000 years as the god of this world. God started opening these seals as soon as He ascended. And the moment it is time for the 6th, He is going to open it.

By the way, I found someone online that agrees with my timeline!  Look up "Derek Walker" in Youtube.

Until we read Revelation the same way, we will continue to disagree on some points.

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

DH, You lack understanding on the timing of the two witnesses because you don't believe John used a parenthesis there. I can assure you that 11:4 through 11:13 is a parenthesis and tyhe events in these verses absolutely do not come before the 7th trumpet. Parenthesis have no bearing on chronology. The two witnesses show up right there in verse 3. In other words, they were not on earth a minute before that. They show up then because the man of sin just arrived in Jerusalem.  The truth is, only 3 1/2 days of their testimony is in the first half of the week.

Boy did you totally misread what I wrote.... I said there is one rapture/resurrection within the final week, and there is one at the end of the millennium. Christ was the firstfruits of the first resurrection, which is Not "waves" as you imply, But a steady stream of the dead being raptured, culminating in we who are alive and remain being caught up to meet them in the air. I Think you need to re-read my comment to you again, for you missed what I said totally. Here is what I wrote:

 

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Agree with you in Part, but I Only see one rapture/resurrection during this final week, and then the second resurrection at the end of the Millennium. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:5-6) 

Your mixing the rapture and resurrection together. The rapture is an end time event, the resurrection is an ongoing process. When you die you are resurrected, But you do not receive your incorruptible Body, that happens in the end. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor. 15:50-54)

I Am not sure you understand the difference? the Only One who has a has been bodily raised right now is Jesus Christ. 

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. ( 1 Cor. 15;42-45) 

 I Will say this, Your view of the seals differs vastly from my view of them. 
I will get into that later. 

 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, eileenhat said:

I've posted the UN information prior.  Brief recount here:

Vision About Beast Out of the Sea

I had a vision from the Lord some years ago about the Beast out of the Sea.  I was shown a great beast rising from the sea and heard the name "Roosevelt" from the lord.  I recognized the scene as "D" day in normandy.  So I did my research, as the lord was instructing me and there it was.  Roosevelt dies from a head wound, a stroke, and in his stead, the UN rises in Oct. 1945...Rev. 13:3  "One of the heads of the beast appeared to be mortally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world marveled and followed the beast."

You see, behind the scenes Roosevelt was being influenced by three unclean spirits that had the appearance of frogs.  Rev. 16:14  "These are demonic spirits that perform signs and go out to all the kings of the earth, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God, the Almighty.".

What else does the bible state about this Beast?

Rev. 13:4  "They worshiped the dragon who had given authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”". 

Yes, who has ever gone against the power of the United Nations?  No one.  And now we know, from thousands of hours of research done by the followers of God on-line that the New World Order and the UN are one and the same, or close enough.

Does it fit the time-line of Daniels 70 weeks/years?

Yes, it does.  Since I witnessed first hand the rising of the Saint's souls oct. 31st, 2015 (another very long story for another time), I had a head start on figuring out the time line of Jacob's 7 years of trouble.  The Saint's rise at 3 1/2 years or 1270 days after the son of perdition brings an abomination into the USA that desolates the spirit of the Nation (ie. gay marriage is such a nation wide abomination), which was announced May 9th, 2012.  You add 1270 days to that date and yes, you get Oct. 31st. 2015.  Then you see the date that the UN formed was oct. 24th, 1945 and add 70 years to that day and you get an Oct. 2015 date that is 7 days shy of Oct. 31st.  I prayed and the lord said "Add 7 days for that is how long it took me to form the earth" to that day and yes, again you get Oct. 31st, 2015 as the day the saint's souls resurrect.

Summary

It works because first I witnessed it, second I confirmed it with the son of perdition time frame info (the lord revealed this data to me as well) and the third confirmation is Roosevelt and the UN information.   I don't need to imagine anything.

It is really very simple: if a vision or words spoken from the Spirit realm do not agree with the written word of God, then they did not come from our Lord.  There are many "voices" in this world people can hear.

The bible is very clear: the entire 70th week is future to us today, not history.  The 70th week for Daniel's people cannot come until the rapture of the church - and we are still here: it is PLAIN that the rapture had not happened. Anyone can tell the trumpet judgments have not come yet: when has any single event killed 1/3 of earth's population? Remember, all the trumpet judgments must fit within 1260 days. Eileen, these things are FUTURE.  Therefore, in spite of visions or words heard, I still say you have a great imagination.  In my opinion, what you write is myth. It comes from a great and vivid imagination.  I am not "hollering from the choir loft," it is just my opinion.

God has proved many times over that His prophecies are extremely accurate to the finest detail. Some people imagine that in the book of Revelation His prophecies must be different. The truth is, from the 6th seal onward, things in Revelation are FUTURE.  God is still adding to the maryrs of the church age: the 5th seal.

Edited October 12, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Boy did you totally misread what I wrote.... I said there is one rapture/resurrection within the final week, and there is one at the end of the millennium. Christ was the firstfruits of the first resurrection, which is Not "waves" as you imply, But a steady stream of the dead being raptured, culminating in we who are alive and remain being caught up to meet them in the air. I Think you need to re-read my comment to you again, for you missed what I said totally. Here is what I wrote:

 

Your mixing the rapture and resurrection together. The rapture is an end time event, the resurrection is an ongoing process. When you die you are resurrected, But you do not receive your incorruptible Body, that happens in the end. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor. 15:50-54)

I Am not sure you understand the difference? the Only One who has a has been bodily raised right now is Jesus Christ. 

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. ( 1 Cor. 15;42-45) 

 I Will say this, Your view of the seals differs vastly from my view of them. 
I will get into that later. 

 

Boy did you totally misread what I wrote.... I said there is one rapture/resurrection within the final week, and there is one at the end of the millennium.  I will go back and look... You are right. I must have gotten lost between reading and writing. I repent!

which is Not "waves" as you imply, But a steady stream of the dead being raptured, culminating in we who are alive and remain being caught up to meet them in the air.  I disagree: not a steady stream: it has been almost 2000 years since Jesus rose from the dead. And between the church rapture and the 144,000 will be at least 3.5 years. Between the 144,000 (near the midpoint) and the old Testament saints, another 3.5 years. I would not call that a steady stream.

When you die you are resurrected  Ah! NOW I get it: you don't know the definition of "resurrection." No wonder we disagree so much! From online dictionaries:

(in Christian belief) Christ's rising from the dead.

the rising again to life of all the human dead before the final judgment

From the root word, resurrect:

restore (a dead person) to life.

: to raise from the dead

"Resurrection" is nothing spiritual, it is PHYSICAL.

Acts 24:15   And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

This verse covers both the "first resurrection" and the "second death" resurrection: there are ONLY TWO - not one for every human who dies and their spirit is taken to heaven.  You were correct: I did not read your post well. Sorry. Now I understand your comment about a steady stream. I also understand it is not the true definition of resurrect or resurrection.

I Am not sure you understand the difference? the Only One who has a has been bodily raised right now is Jesus Christ.   I understand very well; but I use a correct and dictionary definition of resurrection.  I would never, ever, use "resurrection" for the dead in christ in their spirit form being taken to heaven. All that is is changing addresses, from an earthly address to a heavenly one.

Sorry I mis-read your post: I will try to do better.