The parable of the Tares

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Really? You have polled the ENTIRE CHURCH WORLD? (I don't think so.) You don't know that. You're just blowing smoke to make me feel isolated. However, even if that was true, the majority is often not right.

It's ONLY called the "church age" by believers who recognize that there is such an age! Not everyone would agree with you on this point.

And, there you go. You believe in the pretribulational rapture of the church when there's NO SUCH THING IN SCRIPTURE! You're spouting a theological (eschatological) point of view, THEOLOGICAL PROPAGANDA! While you'll feel nice and comfy in your little "Left Behind" world, there's MUCH in Scripture that disagrees with that position!

Nope. That's NOT what the 70th Seven of Daniel 9 is about! It's NOT the "tribulation" at all! The "tribulation" was started in the First Century because the Jews of Jerusalem rejected God's Messiah to be King and Yeshua` pronounced them "DESOLATE!" (Matt. 23:38 fulfilling Daniel 9:27c.)

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he (Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed ishe that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 24:5, 9-12 (KJV)

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. ...
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsis = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

It ENDS just prior to the sun, moon, and stars event of Matthew 24:29-31, which is yet in our future, where you noted the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-17!

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The 70th Seven was divided in two: The first half was Yeshua`s "ministry" within His First Advent, and the second half will be when Yeshua` returns and offers the Kingdom to Israel once again at His Second Advent. The 70th Seven, being a part of the 70 Sevens on DANIEL'S people and on his holy city, has NOTHING directly to do with the "tribulation!" The two halves are more like "bookends" to the tribulation period, which you call the "church age!"

I don't know why you think there will be a "short unknown period of time," but after Yeshua` offers Israel the Kingdom again in the second half of the 70th Seven, and they accept His offer and God's Messiah, then the Millennium begins, which is only the first 1,000 years of the reign of the Messiah. His reign will last forever over the House of Israel.

I agree with your first two statements, here, but while there is time between His Second Coming and the END of the Millennium there is ONLY the Millennium. The 2,000 years of tribulation is already over!

See? We're in agreement in these points.

NO! This is where you're not understanding that the Kingdom of the Messiah MUST GROW over the 1,000-year period! That's what Paul was telling us in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28! He must subdue all of His enemies! It's only a "thousand years of PEACE" WITHIN His Kingdom! OUTSIDE His Kingdom, there SHALL be conflict as He subdues His enemies! What do you think "subdue" means? We get a short insight into this conflict in Psalm 2:1-12, a Messianic Psalm.

Not if they come "OUT of His Kingdom!"

We may differ on certain points, but have you ever heard of "relativity?" If I'm more dead on the Scriptures, then which one of us is "way, way out there?"

Years ago I determined not to answer your posts because you were too far out from the commentaries and the norm's of Christian belief. I guess I forgot what I had determined and started this conversation.

I will agree, God calls the church age "the tribulation." (Rev. 1:9) I believe he referred to the church at the time of the rapture as a time of "great tribulation." See Rev. 7.

It seems you imagine that the signs in the sun and moon at the 6th seal and the signs as given in Matthew 24 are the very same signs, happening at the very same time. Sorry, but you are very mistaken. The signs at the 6th seal will happen over 7 years before the signs in Matthew 24. And the truth is, they are DIFFERENT signs: The signs at the 6th seal speaks of total eclipses. The signs in Matthew 24 speak of total darkness. These are TWO DIFFERENT SIGNS pointing to TO DIFFERENT events.  If you would read Joel, He shows the sign for the start of the DAY (the 6th seal signs) in chapter 2, and the sign for His coming (REv, 19) in chapter 3.

The truth is, we disagree on far more than we agree on.

But Jesus also called the 70th week "the tribulation" at least in the KJV.

[Marilyn C]

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It's not at the end of "this age" in which you're thinking that the end of this age is marked by the Second Coming. HOWEVER, the end of this age is actually at the end of the Millennium!

I hope you know, the entire church world disagrees with you here!  We are in a very long parenthesis called the church age. It is going to end at the pretrib rapture of the church. "TIME" will then revert right back to the Jewish age as it was after Christ rose from the dead. AFter the church age, it is DAY OF THE LORD time, as shown at the 6th seal. And after that, the 70th week of Daniel, the last 7 years that closes out the Jewish age.

AFter the 70th week ends: at the 7th vial, there is a short unknown period of time and then Jesus returns to BEGIN the 1000 year reign of Christ.

What you are missing:

23 But every man in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits;  (He was the first man to receive a resurrection body.)
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (As shown in His 1 Thes. 4 coming.)

There is TIME here! The 7 years of tribulation, then the 1000 year reign of Christ.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God  (This point is after the 1000 years.)

This is not the first time God has put thousands of years between verse or even between words in a sentence!

Verse 24 doesn't occur at the BEGINNING of the Millennium; it occurs at the END of the Millennium!   Agreed. But the statement before verse 24 is BEFORE the millennium.

It is the time of great conflict in this world  On the contrary: it is going to be a thousand years of PEACE. The curse will be lifted: lambs will lay down by lions. Do you really think ruling with a rod of iron that Jesus will allow any kind of conflict? Not a chance!

The tares are destroyed between the two  The tares are destroyed right at Christ's coming as shown in Rev. 19. Jesus is NOT GOING to have tares for 1000 years!  All tares will be put to death before the 1000 years.

It seems you and I disagree MUCH on end times scriptures.  Your ideas are way way out there.

Hi iamlamad,

I think you have misunderstood my comments.

I wrote that the Lord would take out the `tares` at His coming.

I agree that there is a thousand years between that verse.

Where do you get I don`t agree on those things?

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

I think you have misunderstood my comments.

I wrote that the Lord would take out the `tares` at His coming.

I agree that there is a thousand years between that verse.

Where do you get I don`t agree on those things?

Marilyn.

I was quoting someone else. There are a few things we can agree on.

I don't think I have miss-understood you, but it is possible.

I think you hit the nail on the head with Retrobyter here:  " You seem to think you can interpret for God."

The parable of the tares is when the lawless are taken. That could (possibly) be at the 6th trumpet, OR it could be at the sheep and goat judgment. In both places the wicked are "taken." Or, it could be an event just not shown in Revelation; happening as Jesus descends.

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

I honestly think you do not comprehend this, It is not we who live, but Christ who lives in us for we have put to death the flesh, and received the Life Quickening Spirit of Christ. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Peter 3:18)

Jesus won the victory over death by his resurrection, that we too may be resurrected and be with Him in Spirit when we die.

Shabbat shalom, dhchristian.

I was going to consider your viewpoint UNTIL I read this last sentence! YOU know NOTHING about the Resurrection! Let's go WAY back, shall we? And, let's read what Iyov ("Job") said about it!

Job 19:23-27 (KJV)

23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

When one reads these words out loud, he or she must read them with PASSION! The same PASSION that Iyov had! He was more than just convinced he would see resurrection; he was counting on it with everything he had left! He was financially suffering, emotionally suffering with the loss of his children and the alienation of his wife, and physically suffering, in terrible pain for which he couldn't get relief, and now, he was socially suffering, as well, as his "friends" attacked his character!

Resurrection of the body is PHYSICAL, my brother! We SHALL live again! The "resurrection body" is a SUPER-STRONG PHYSICAL body! It glows at a different frequency, in the visible spectrum rather than just infrared heat, and it will never decay or die, but it is still physical!

Yeshua`s encounter with the disciples was like this:

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat (food)?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

That's no mere coincidence, my brother! He was giving these details for their confidence (and for ours) that He was indeed RESURRECTED PHYSICALLY!

I get so tired of the word "spiritual!" NOT because its a bad word, but because of how often it is abused and misused to refer to something it was NEVER intended to mean!

You quoted a LITTLE from 1 Corinthians 15 (verse 45), but not NEARLY enough to understand the meaning of "spiritual." You've got to look at the CONTRASTS:

1 Corinthians 15:35-57 (KJV)

35 But some man will say,

"How are the dead raised up?"

and

"with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but 
there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts (land animals),
another of fishes (sea creatures), and
another of birds. 
40 There are also celestial bodies (Greek: soomata epourania = "bodies of-above-the-sky"), and
bodies terrestrial (Greek: soomata epigeia = "bodies of-above/upon-the-earth"): but
the glory (brightness; glow) of the celestial (Greek: hee toon epouranioon = "of-those-above-the-sky") is one, and
the glory (brightness; glow) of the terrestrial (Greek: ehee toon epigeioon = "of-those-above/upon-the earth") is another. 
41There is one glory (brightness; glow) of the sun, and
another glory (brightness; glow) of the moon, and
another glory (brightness; glow) of the stars: for 
one star differeth from another star in glory (brightness; hue; glow).

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption (the ability to decay);
it is raised in incorruption (decay-proof): 

43 It is sown in dishonour (inconsequence);
it is raised in glory (brightness; fame):

it is sown in weakness (frailty);
it is raised in power (strength): 

44 It is sown a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "an air-breathing body");
it is raised a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "an air-blasting body").

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,

"The first man Adam was made a living soul (a living air-breather)" (Genesis 2:7);

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (a life-giving wind). 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual (Greek: to pneumatikon = "the air-blasting"), but that which is natural (Greek: to psuchikon = "the air-breathing"); and afterward that which is spiritual (Greek: to pneumatikon = "the air-blasting"). 

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy (Greek: ek gees, choikos = "out of-earth, dirt=like"):
the second man is the Lord from heaven (Greek: ex ouranou = "out of-[the]-sky"). 

48 As is the earthy (Greek: ho choikos = "the-one dirt-like"),
such are they also that are earthy (Greek: hoi choikoi = "the-ones dirt-like"): and

as is the heavenly (Greek: ho epouranios = "the-one of-above-the-sky"),
such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: hoi epouranioi = the ones of-above-the-sky"). 

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (Greek: teen eikona tou choikou = "the likeness of-the dust-like"),
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (Greek: teen eikona tou epouraniou = "the likeness of-the-ones of-above-the-sky").

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood (a phrase for "mortal") cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (decay) inherit incorruption (decay-proof). 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery (I'll tell you a secret);

We shall not all sleep (die), but
we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:

for the trumpet shall sound, and
the dead shall be raised incorruptible (decay-proof), and
we [the living] shall be changed (Greek: allageesometha = "we-shall-be-altered/transformed"). 

53 For this corruptible (ability to decay) must put on incorruption (decay-proof), and
this mortal (ability to die) must put on immortality (death-proof). [This is talking about those who have not died, yet.]

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and
this mortal shall have put on immortality,

then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

"Death is swallowed up in victory." (Isaiah 25:8.)

55 "O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory?" (Hosea 13:14b.)

56 The sting of death is sin; and
the strength of sin is the law. 

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ (our Master Yeshua` the Messiah).

(I'll do another post for the rest.)

[dhchristian]

Just now, Retrobyter said:

I was going to consider your viewpoint UNTIL I read this last sentence! YOU know NOTHING about the Resurrection! Let's go WAY back, shall we? And, let's read what Iyov ("Job") said about it!

Job 19:23-27 (KJV)

23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

When one reads these words out loud, he or she must read them with PASSION! The same PASSION that Iyov had! He was more than just convinced he would see resurrection; he was counting on it with everything he had left! He was financially suffering, emotionally suffering with the loss of his children and the alienation of his wife, and physically suffering, in terrible pain for which he couldn't get relief, and now, he was socially suffering, as well, as his "friends" attacked his character!

Resurrection of the body is PHYSICAL, my brother! We SHALL live again! The "resurrection body" is a SUPER-STRONG PHYSICAL body! It glows at a different frequency, in the visible spectrum rather than just infrared heat, and it will never decay or die, but it is still physical!

I Am not denying the Physical resurrection in the end times, But you are denying that our Spirit goes to be with the Lord in Heaven when we die, and heaven is our home. Paul and the other apostles spoke over and over again of this being "absent from the body is to be with the LORD", as the verses quoted above in my response to you clearly state. The Body we receive at the time of the resurrection is a Spiritual body, one that can traverse between the heaven and earth, like the angels now do. Though I am as ignorant as the apostle John was of the full meaning and manifestation of what this body will be like, except for saying we will have a glorified body like Christ. 

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:1-2)

We will be not like the first Adam, a natural being, but will be like the second Adam, Jesus Christ. We will not be the old creation of the Garden of Eden as you say, But of the NEW CREATION in Christ Jesus. Going back again to 2 Cor 5 this time verse 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor. 5:17)

Of course you are welcome to believe what you want, But I say you are limiting God, a supernatural being to the natural world he created, and you are limiting us who he has re created as to be as he is to be confined to a natural world. I personally think you are missing out on some of the greatest promises found in scripture, because you are unable to comprehend and see them with your carnal mind. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Romans 8:6-11) 

I Really suggest that you examine what it means to be born of the Spirit. Start with Romans 7-8.

God Bless.

 

  

 

 

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Am not denying the Physical resurrection in the end times, But you are denying that our Spirit goes to be with the Lord in Heaven when we die, and heaven is our home.

Shabbat shalom, dhchristian.

Oh, but you ARE (and I guess, you don't even realize it)! What's the point of "the Physical resurrection in the end times" if you believe that "heaven is our home?" Why do we need a "Physical resurrection" if we already have our "heavenly bodies" when we're in "heaven?" And, why do we need to go anywhere else if we're already IN "heaven" after death?

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Paul and the other apostles spoke over and over again of this being "absent from the body is to be with the LORD", as the verses quoted above in my response to you clearly state. The Body we receive at the time of the resurrection is a Spiritual body, one that can traverse between the heaven and earth, like the angels now do. Though I am as ignorant as the apostle John was of the full meaning and manifestation of what this body will be like, except for saying we will have a glorified body like Christ. 

Ah! but if life is NOT continuous, then we would notice no change at all as we die and the NEXT MOMENT (for us), we'll be in the presence of the Lord at the Resurrection! Therefore, I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with the verses that say "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." (And, that's "Lord" merely capitalized translating the Greek word "kurios" or the Hebrew word "adown." If all the letters are capitalized [all caps or made upper case] then we are talking about translating the Hebrew word "YHWH" which is God's Name. Thus, the two, "Lord" and "LORD," are NOT synonymous and should not be used interchangeably!) And, being "absent from the body" is not "one's body" but is the body of believers to which that person belongs!

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:1-2)

We will be not like the first Adam, a natural being, but will be like the second Adam, Jesus Christ. We will not be the old creation of the Garden of Eden as you say, But of the NEW CREATION in Christ Jesus. Going back again to 2 Cor 5 this time verse 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor. 5:17)

Of course you are welcome to believe what you want, But I say you are limiting God, a supernatural being to the natural world he created, and you are limiting us who he has re created as to be as he is to be confined to a natural world. I personally think you are missing out on some of the greatest promises found in scripture, because you are unable to comprehend and see them with your carnal mind. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Romans 8:6-11) 

I Really suggest that you examine what it means to be born of the Spirit. Start with Romans 7-8.

God Bless.

I'm detecting that you are STUCK in this physical-spiritual dichotomy. I suppose you think that Genesis 1:1 is talking about the spiritual realm and the physical realm when Moses wrote,

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Right?

Let me inform you that this verse is talking ONLY about the physical! See, in Hebrew literature, it's not uncommon for a writer to summarize what is to follow next. It's like stating the major point in an outline before delving into the specific points.

This is the same "heaven" in verse 1 that is also mentioned in verse 8, and it's the same "earth" in verse 1 that is also mentioned in verse 10, yet it was in verses 8 and 10 where these physical things were NAMED AS SUCH right after they were created!

Genesis 1:1-13 (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven (Hebrew: hashaamayim = "the [dual] skies") and the earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the earth"). 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said,

"Let there be light":

and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light

"Day,"

and the darkness he called

"Night."

And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven" (Hebrew: shaamaayim = [dual] "skies"). And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said,

"Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear":

 and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land "Earth" (Hebrew: 'erets = "land/earth"); and the gathering together of the waters called he "Seas": and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth:

and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

If you are STUCK in this physical-spiritual dichotomy, then you have MUCH to learn. Things are frequently not "black and white." It's not about "natural vs. supernatural" or "carnal vs. spiritual" or "physical vs. invisible (metaphysical)."

The wind, for instance, may be invisible, but it's still PHYSICAL. It's effects are still visible and the forces behind the wind are VERY REAL, VERY PHYSICAL!

[dhchristian]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Oh, but you ARE (and I guess, you don't even realize it)! What's the point of "the Physical resurrection in the end times" if you believe that "heaven is our home?" Why do we need a "Physical resurrection" if we already have our "heavenly bodies" when we're in "heaven?" And, why do we need to go anywhere else if we're already IN "heaven" after death?

No I am not! And until you stop your false accusations this conversation is over. The physical resurrection is at the end of the age. There is one resurrection during the final week which includes the rapture of the church, and there is a second resurrection at the end of the millennium, as Per rev. 20:5-6. Soul and Spirit go to heaven when we die. Our New bodies will not be like our old bodies, and not even like our Edenic bodies as you claim, but they will be like the glorified body of Christ Jesus after his resurrection which is able to travel between heaven and earth. 

You are wrong and are just to proud to admit your error, so now you resort to false accusation. 
Good Bye.

 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

No I am not! And until you stop your false accusations this conversation is over. The physical resurrection is at the end of the age. There is one resurrection during the final week which includes the rapture of the church, and there is a second resurrection at the end of the millennium, as Per rev. 20:5-6. Soul and Spirit go to heaven when we die. Our New bodies will not be like our old bodies, and not even like our Edenic bodies as you claim, but they will be like the glorified body of Christ Jesus after his resurrection which is able to travel between heaven and earth. 

You are wrong and are just to proud to admit your error, so now you resort to false accusation. 
Good Bye.

 

The "first resurrection" is not set in TIME: it is for all the righteous and will happen OVER TIME. 

Jesus was #1 in the "first" or primary resurrection - around 32 AD

The dead in Christ will be next, along with those who are changed on the way up -  very soon in our future.

The 144,000 are after the church, around the midpoint of the week.

The Old Testament saints, including the Two witnesses and all those martyred during the week will make the final wave for the first resurrection. ALL of these groups will take part in this most honorable of resurrections.  This resurrection will come on the "last day" or last 24 hour period of the 70th week.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, dhchristian.

Oh, but you ARE (and I guess, you don't even realize it)! What's the point of "the Physical resurrection in the end times" if you believe that "heaven is our home?" Why do we need a "Physical resurrection" if we already have our "heavenly bodies" when we're in "heaven?" And, why do we need to go anywhere else if we're already IN "heaven" after death?

Ah! but if life is NOT continuous, then we would notice no change at all as we die and the NEXT MOMENT (for us), we'll be in the presence of the Lord at the Resurrection! Therefore, I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with the verses that say "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." (And, that's "Lord" merely capitalized translating the Greek word "kurios" or the Hebrew word "adown." If all the letters are capitalized [all caps or made upper case] then we are talking about translating the Hebrew word "YHWH" which is God's Name. Thus, the two, "Lord" and "LORD," are NOT synonymous and should not be used interchangeably!) And, being "absent from the body" is not "one's body" but is the body of believers to which that person belongs!

I'm detecting that you are STUCK in this physical-spiritual dichotomy. I suppose you think that Genesis 1:1 is talking about the spiritual realm and the physical realm when Moses wrote,

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Right?

Let me inform you that this verse is talking ONLY about the physical! See, in Hebrew literature, it's not uncommon for a writer to summarize what is to follow next. It's like stating the major point in an outline before delving into the specific points.

This is the same "heaven" in verse 1 that is also mentioned in verse 8, and it's the same "earth" in verse 1 that is also mentioned in verse 10, yet it was in verses 8 and 10 where these physical things were NAMED AS SUCH right after they were created!

Genesis 1:1-13 (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven (Hebrew: hashaamayim = "the [dual] skies") and the earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the earth"). 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said,

"Let there be light":

and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light

"Day,"

and the darkness he called

"Night."

And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven" (Hebrew: shaamaayim = [dual] "skies"). And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said,

"Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear":

 and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land "Earth" (Hebrew: 'erets = "land/earth"); and the gathering together of the waters called he "Seas": and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth:

and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

If you are STUCK in this physical-spiritual dichotomy, then you have MUCH to learn. Things are frequently not "black and white." It's not about "natural vs. supernatural" or "carnal vs. spiritual" or "physical vs. invisible (metaphysical)."

The wind, for instance, may be invisible, but it's still PHYSICAL. It's effects are still visible and the forces behind the wind are VERY REAL, VERY PHYSICAL!

Very good post, Roy! Clear, easy to understand, and well written. HOWEVER, when a human is born again, the new spirit is created in the spiritual realm, NOT in the flesh: in the spirit "all things become new" while in the flesh, NOTHING CHANGES.  But, there is yet another hand here: When we get our resurrection bodies, THEN both our body and our spirit will be NEW and will have God's own DNA. 

I hope you understand, a human being dwells it TWO realms: the physical and the spiritual.

Edited October 20, 2019 by iamlamad

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

The "first resurrection" is not set in TIME: it is for all the righteous and will happen OVER TIME. 

Jesus was #1 in the "first" or primary resurrection - around 32 AD

The dead in Christ will be next, along with those who are changed on the way up -  very soon in our future.

The 144,000 are after the church, around the midpoint of the week.

The Old Testament saints, including the Two witnesses and all those martyred during the week will make the final wave for the first resurrection. ALL of these groups will take part in this most honorable of resurrections.  This resurrection will come on the "last day" or last 24 hour period of the 70th week.

Jesus is the firstfruits of the first resurrection, the main harvest is during the final week. I see one day when all of these resurrections take place.