The parable of the Tares

[Retrobyter]

25 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

Amen brother, good stuff.  Now, to go further with this, we also have these examples.  Starting with the 144,000.

 

Revelation 14:4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

 

And then the gentiles.

 

II Thessalonians 2:13   But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

 

No such thing as secondfruits.

 

God bless

Shalom, wingnut-.

Sorry, those are different analogies. Yeshua` being the "Firstfruits" of Resurrection is different than the 144,000 being the "Firstfruits" of REDEMPTION or the Thessalonians being the "firstfruits" of "RESCUE through the Spirit's sanctification."

Remember not to let analogies "bleed over" into other passages of Scripture. It's like "leaven": While it is true that Yeshua`s disciples should NOT fall prey to the "leaven of the Pharisees," it is also true that Yeshua` used "leaven" as a description of the coming Kingdom of God. Thus, "leaven" is not always a bad thing.

And, you're right, of course; there's no such thing as "secondfruits." It's just called the "rest of the harvest."

What we've learned from 1 Corinthians 15 is that Yeshua`, being the FIRST to be resurrected unto eternal life, is now the SOURCE for resurrection in the future, both in the FIRST (General) Resurrection of those who belong to Him at His Second Coming, and in the SECOND (General) Resurrection when all the rest are brought back to life for judgment after both the Millennium and haSatan's rebellion and last stand. He has been given that privilege by His Father because He is the ONE who may be "the Mediator between God and men."

1 Timothy 2:1-6 (KJV)

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Retrobyter
forgot a MAJOR word

[wingnut-]

8 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Sorry, those are different analogies. Yeshua` being the "Firstfruits" of Resurrection is different than the 144,000 being the "Firstfruits" of REDEMPTION or the Thessalonians being the "firstfruits" of "RESCUE through the Spirit's sanctification."

 

I will have to disagree with you on this, the entire point is, once a person is sanctified by the Spirit they are now abiding in Him.  And He is not going down for a dirt nap, or leaving all those in Abraham's bosom behind either.  That is why Matthew specifies it was AFTER His resurrection.  This is one of those instances in theology that I am certain of a thing, so that probably leaves us right where we were from the last time.

Throughout the book Revelation we see these examples, the 24 elders are there from the start, there are souls under the altar, and a great multitude is seen later.  These individuals arrived there at some point, and not all at the same time, no matter how many ways one wants to talk around it.

God bless

[Retrobyter]

On 10/30/2019 at 11:46 PM, wingnut- said:

I will have to disagree with you on this, the entire point is, once a person is sanctified by the Spirit they are now abiding in Him.  And He is not going down for a dirt nap, or leaving all those in Abraham's bosom behind either.  That is why Matthew specifies it was AFTER His resurrection.  This is one of those instances in theology that I am certain of a thing, so that probably leaves us right where we were from the last time.

Throughout the book Revelation we see these examples, the 24 elders are there from the start, there are souls under the altar, and a great multitude is seen later.  These individuals arrived there at some point, and not all at the same time, no matter how many ways one wants to talk around it.

God bless

Shalom, wingnut-.

Well, that all sounds good UNTIL one discovers on his or her own the true definition of "soul." And, it never hurts to have a true understanding of the word "heaven" (Greek: "ouranos") either, especially in conjunction with the other words derived from the Greek word "ouranos." Do a study of it sometime. I did when I was seriously searching. I looked up EVERY occurrence of "heaven," "heavenly," "heaven's," and "heavens" in a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible when I was a young adult (late teens, early twenties).

Here's what I found:

Heaven:

In the Hebrew Dictionary, there were only 8064 (281x), 8065 (34x), and a few odd, starred occurrences of *1534 (1x) at Psalm 77:18 and *7834 (2x) at Psalm 89:6, 37.

1534 galgal - a wheel, whirlwind (tornado)
7834 shachaq - a powder, vapor (mist)
8064 shaamayim - to be lofty, the sky (as aloft) (skies)
8065 shaamayin - (Chaldean corresponding to 8064) (skies)

In the Greek Dictionary, there were only 3772 (245x), 3771 (2x) at Acts 14:17 and Acts 26:13, 2032 (1x) at Phillipians 2:10, and 3321 (3x) at Revelation 8:18, 14:6, and 19:17.

2032 epouranios - belonging to above-the-sky (outer spatial)
3321 mesouraneema - middle-of-the-sky
3771 ouranothen - from-the-sky
3772 ouranos - [the]-sky

Heavenly:

(Nothing in the Hebrew Dictionary)

In the Greek Dictionary, there were 3770 (6x) at Matthew 6:14, 26, 32; 18:35; Luke 2:13; and Acts 26:19, 2032 (16x) at Matthew 18:35; John 3:12; 1 Corinthians 15:48 (2ce), 49; Ephesians 1:3, 20; 2:6; 3:10; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 3:1; 6:4; 8:5; 9:23; 11:16; and 12:22, and once a combination of 1537 and 3772 in Luke 11:13.

1537 ek or ex - out-of, from
2032 epouranios - belonging-to-above-the-sky (outer spatial)
3770 ouranios - belonging-to-the-sky
3772 ouranos - [the]-sky

Heaven's:

(Nothing in the Hebrew Dictionary)

In the Greek Dictionary, there was one occurrence in Matthew 19:12 which used 3772 (1x).

3772 ouranos - [the]-sky (Ablative plural: toon ouranoon - from-[the]-skies)

Heavens:

In the Hebrew Dictionary, there were 8064 (107x), 8065 (3x) at Jeremiah 10:11 (2ce) and Daniel 4:26, 6160 (1x) at Psalm 68:4, and 6183 (1x) at Isaiah 5:30.

6160 `araaVaah - a desert
6183 `aariyf - the sky (as drooping at the horizons)
8064 shaamayim - to be lofty, the sky (as aloft) (skies)
8065 shaamayin - (Chaldean corresponding to 8064) (skies) 

In the Greek Dictionary, there was only 3772 (19x) at Matthew 3:16; 24:29; Mark 1:10; Luke 12:33; Acts 2:34; 7:56; 2 Corinthians 5:1; Ephesians 4:10; Hebrews 1:10; 4:14; 7:26; 8:1; 9:23;
2 Peter 3:5, 7, 10, 12, 13; and Revelation 12:12.

3772 ouranos, plural ouranoi - [the]-skies.

ANYONE could have done the same! I was thinking....

"Okay, there are three heavens, 'first heaven = of clouds, second heaven = of stars, third heaven = God's abode.' So, now that I know these words, how do they correspond to these three heavens?"

I got "there are three heavens, 'first heaven = of clouds, second heaven = of stars, third heaven = God's abode,'" from my father's sermons and those of visiting missionaries and evangelists, and from the center margin on page 1238 in my old Scofield Reference Edition to the King James Version of the Bible. 

Well, the Hebrew words, they were a REAL mystery to me. Remember: Even though I am a Jew through my mother's mother's mother, I was born and raised as ANY Gentile believer is born and raised here in the USA. My advantage was that I was born to a couple that was in the ministry. My father was an independent Baptist minister! My mother was a piano player and had secretarial training and experience. Both loved the Lord, and both trained their children to love the Lord, also. I was in church the first Sunday after I was born (I was born on a Monday morning and later circumcized), and, until I had the mumps at age 12, I never missed a service! (Big deal.) My father lead me to the Lord at the age of 6, I was baptized by immersion the next month, becoming a member of my church, and I rededicated my life to God at 13.

Through my own Bible study, I came upon those funny little marks at the beginning of the twenty-two sections of Psalm 119 and wondered what they were. I asked my dad, and he told me that they were the Hebrew letters of their alphabet. I decided to memorize them, but much to my father's dismay, I memorized them in church during his sermon! 

Later, I looked up the Hebrew letters in the Compton's Encyclopedia set we had and figured out that they ALL were consonants. But, where were the vowels? That was too much for me at the time.

I've been learning Hebrew "by the seat of my pants" ever since. It wasn't until I was an adult in my forties that I had any real Hebrew classes. However, by then, I knew enough about Hebrew that my first class in Hebrew was a recap of what I had learned.

The bottom line is that I focused on the Greek words, which were much closer in structure to English and were the basis for the New Testament anyway.

So, I learned ...

2032 epouranios - belonging to above-the-ouranos
3321 mesouraneema - middle-of-the-ouranos
3771 ouranothen - from-the-ouranos
3772 ouranos - heaven

I tried them in various orders, trying to figure out which was which and why the prefixes were added the way they were. At one point early on, I thought maybe ...

ouranos = heaven = first heaven = of clouds
mesouraneema = middle of the ouranos = second heaven = of stars
epouranios = belonging to above the ouranos = [of the] third heaven = God's abode.

It seemed reasonable to me, but when I looked up all the verses that used these various Greek words, this formula didn't work. From Scripture, I learned ...

mesouraneema = middle-of-the-ouranos was where the birds flew (Rev. 19:17), and
epouranios = belonging to above-the-ouranos was where the sun, moon, and stars were (1 Cor. 15:40-41).

Birds don't fly in space, the heaven "of stars," and the sun, moon, and stars aren't in "God's abode," according to the theory.

Notice, too, that behind all the prefixes and morphological endings showing parts of speech, person, tense, mood, voice, case, number, gender, and comparison, the fundamental, root word in ALL of these words was "ouranos." And, Strong's Greek Dictionary gave this for its definition:

3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity)
-- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

3735 oros (or'-os). Probably from an obsolete oroo (to rise or "rear"; perhaps akin to airoo; compare ornis); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain):
-hill, mount(-ain).

142 airoo (ah'-ee-ro). A primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. Weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare nasa') to expiate sin
-- away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

3733 ornis (or'-nis). Probably from a prolonged form of the base of oros; a bird (as rising in the air), i.e. (specially), a hen (or female domestic fowl)
-- hen.

Then, too, I found (purely according to God's providence, though some would say "by chance") that the same word was used not once, but FOUR times in as many verses in Matthew 16!

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.' 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring.' O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

Contemplate on this passage. Consider what the Pharisees and Sadducees were asking Him to do with this word, and consider what Yeshua` was saying to them with the SAME WORD.

Read through it about 20 times, and tell me why He used the same word.

[wingnut-]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, that all sounds good UNTIL one discovers on his or her own the true definition of "soul."

 

It isn't about a soul to me or the use of it in that instance, I think it is far better to focus on the spirit of a man, and exactly what it means to abide in Him, and Him abiding in you.  While we are part of His body, what is truly being spoken of is a spiritual thing.  We are one body, but we are uniquely independent even though joined by one Spirit.  Independent enough that we receive new names that only He knows.

Now, being part of that one Spirit, and one body, with Jesus as the head of that body, what you suggest is upon death of the flesh we cease to be for some unknown period of time.  If that were true, we would no longer be part of that one Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is not going to be buried, and furthermore, neither is part of His body.  The flesh is just the earthly tent, as Paul explains, and when it expires he wrote that we are present with the Lord.  There is no smoke and mirrors to talk around that, or all of the other evidence that often comes up.

As I said previously, to me there is no doubt about this.  Also, I wanted to add because I did not respond previously, but when I said I didn't care what you believe that was in regards to this particular discussion because it is not a salvational issue.  If it were a salvational issue, then I would care very much.  Just thought I should clarify that.

 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Read through it about 20 times, and tell me why He used the same word.

 

I believe He recognized what they were already thinking, how to get rid of Him because they did not want to lose their power.  What they are asking for is to see the sign of His coming in the sky if He was the Messiah, which He calls them out on not long after this in Jerusalem.

 

Matthew 21:33 “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. 35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. 37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone that the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord's doing,
    and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. 46 And although they were seeking to arrest him, they feared the crowds, because they held him to be a prophet.

 

Now Jesus responded by describing the conditions of the sky and how they recognized them, but they did not believe what He had to say despite all they had seen and heard to that point.  Their kind had killed all the prophets sent before Him, and they would kill Him as well, so they only get the sign of Jonah.

 

God bless

 

[iamlamad]

On 11/3/2019 at 1:07 AM, wingnut- said:

 

It isn't about a soul to me or the use of it in that instance, I think it is far better to focus on the spirit of a man, and exactly what it means to abide in Him, and Him abiding in you.  While we are part of His body, what is truly being spoken of is a spiritual thing.  We are one body, but we are uniquely independent even though joined by one Spirit.  Independent enough that we receive new names that only He knows.

Now, being part of that one Spirit, and one body, with Jesus as the head of that body, what you suggest is upon death of the flesh we cease to be for some unknown period of time.  If that were true, we would no longer be part of that one Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is not going to be buried, and furthermore, neither is part of His body.  The flesh is just the earthly tent, as Paul explains, and when it expires he wrote that we are present with the Lord.  There is no smoke and mirrors to talk around that, or all of the other evidence that often comes up.

As I said previously, to me there is no doubt about this.  Also, I wanted to add because I did not respond previously, but when I said I didn't care what you believe that was in regards to this particular discussion because it is not a salvational issue.  If it were a salvational issue, then I would care very much.  Just thought I should clarify that.

 

 

I believe He recognized what they were already thinking, how to get rid of Him because they did not want to lose their power.  What they are asking for is to see the sign of His coming in the sky if He was the Messiah, which He calls them out on not long after this in Jerusalem.

 

Matthew 21:33 “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. 35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. 37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone that the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord's doing,
    and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. 46 And although they were seeking to arrest him, they feared the crowds, because they held him to be a prophet.

 

Now Jesus responded by describing the conditions of the sky and how they recognized them, but they did not believe what He had to say despite all they had seen and heard to that point.  Their kind had killed all the prophets sent before Him, and they would kill Him as well, so they only get the sign of Jonah.

 

God bless

 

being part of that one Spirit, and one body, with Jesus as the head of that body, what you suggest is upon death of the flesh we cease to be for some unknown period of time.  If that were true, we would no longer be part of that one Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is not going to be buried, and furthermore, neither is part of His body.   I never thought of this, but is is a great answer to the theory of "soul sleep." Ha ha! The Holy Spirit is CERTAINLY not going to be buried!

[iamlamad]

On 11/2/2019 at 10:14 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

Well, that all sounds good UNTIL one discovers on his or her own the true definition of "soul." And, it never hurts to have a true understanding of the word "heaven" (Greek: "ouranos") either, especially in conjunction with the other words derived from the Greek word "ouranos." Do a study of it sometime. I did when I was seriously searching. I looked up EVERY occurrence of "heaven," "heavenly," "heaven's," and "heavens" in a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible when I was a young adult (late teens, early twenties).

Here's what I found:

Heaven:

In the Hebrew Dictionary, there were only 8064 (281x), 8065 (34x), and a few odd, starred occurrences of *1534 (1x) at Psalm 77:18 and *7834 (2x) at Psalm 89:6, 37.

1534 galgal - a wheel, whirlwind (tornado)
7834 shachaq - a powder, vapor (mist)
8064 shaamayim - to be lofty, the sky (as aloft) (skies)
8065 shaamayin - (Chaldean corresponding to 8064) (skies)

In the Greek Dictionary, there were only 3772 (245x), 3771 (2x) at Acts 14:17 and Acts 26:13, 2032 (1x) at Phillipians 2:10, and 3321 (3x) at Revelation 8:18, 14:6, and 19:17.

2032 epouranios - belonging to above-the-sky (outer spatial)
3321 mesouraneema - middle-of-the-sky
3771 ouranothen - from-the-sky
3772 ouranos - [the]-sky

Heavenly:

(Nothing in the Hebrew Dictionary)

In the Greek Dictionary, there were 3770 (6x) at Matthew 6:14, 26, 32; 18:35; Luke 2:13; and Acts 26:19, 2032 (16x) at Matthew 18:35; John 3:12; 1 Corinthians 15:48 (2ce), 49; Ephesians 1:3, 20; 2:6; 3:10; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 3:1; 6:4; 8:5; 9:23; 11:16; and 12:22, and once a combination of 1537 and 3772 in Luke 11:13.

1537 ek or ex - out-of, from
2032 epouranios - belonging-to-above-the-sky (outer spatial)
3770 ouranios - belonging-to-the-sky
3772 ouranos - [the]-sky

Heaven's:

(Nothing in the Hebrew Dictionary)

In the Greek Dictionary, there was one occurrence in Matthew 19:12 which used 3772 (1x).

3772 ouranos - [the]-sky (Ablative plural: toon ouranoon - from-[the]-skies)

Heavens:

In the Hebrew Dictionary, there were 8064 (107x), 8065 (3x) at Jeremiah 10:11 (2ce) and Daniel 4:26, 6160 (1x) at Psalm 68:4, and 6183 (1x) at Isaiah 5:30.

6160 `araaVaah - a desert
6183 `aariyf - the sky (as drooping at the horizons)
8064 shaamayim - to be lofty, the sky (as aloft) (skies)
8065 shaamayin - (Chaldean corresponding to 8064) (skies) 

In the Greek Dictionary, there was only 3772 (19x) at Matthew 3:16; 24:29; Mark 1:10; Luke 12:33; Acts 2:34; 7:56; 2 Corinthians 5:1; Ephesians 4:10; Hebrews 1:10; 4:14; 7:26; 8:1; 9:23;
2 Peter 3:5, 7, 10, 12, 13; and Revelation 12:12.

3772 ouranos, plural ouranoi - [the]-skies.

ANYONE could have done the same! I was thinking....

"Okay, there are three heavens, 'first heaven = of clouds, second heaven = of stars, third heaven = God's abode.' So, now that I know these words, how do they correspond to these three heavens?"

I got "there are three heavens, 'first heaven = of clouds, second heaven = of stars, third heaven = God's abode,'" from my father's sermons and those of visiting missionaries and evangelists, and from the center margin on page 1238 in my old Scofield Reference Edition to the King James Version of the Bible. 

Well, the Hebrew words, they were a REAL mystery to me. Remember: Even though I am a Jew through my mother's mother's mother, I was born and raised as ANY Gentile believer is born and raised here in the USA. My advantage was that I was born to a couple that was in the ministry. My father was an independent Baptist minister! My mother was a piano player and had secretarial training and experience. Both loved the Lord, and both trained their children to love the Lord, also. I was in church the first Sunday after I was born (I was born on a Monday morning and later circumcized), and, until I had the mumps at age 12, I never missed a service! (Big deal.) My father lead me to the Lord at the age of 6, I was baptized by immersion the next month, becoming a member of my church, and I rededicated my life to God at 13.

Through my own Bible study, I came upon those funny little marks at the beginning of the twenty-two sections of Psalm 119 and wondered what they were. I asked my dad, and he told me that they were the Hebrew letters of their alphabet. I decided to memorize them, but much to my father's dismay, I memorized them in church during his sermon! 

Later, I looked up the Hebrew letters in the Compton's Encyclopedia set we had and figured out that they ALL were consonants. But, where were the vowels? That was too much for me at the time.

I've been learning Hebrew "by the seat of my pants" ever since. It wasn't until I was an adult in my forties that I had any real Hebrew classes. However, by then, I knew enough about Hebrew that my first class in Hebrew was a recap of what I had learned.

The bottom line is that I focused on the Greek words, which were much closer in structure to English and were the basis for the New Testament anyway.

So, I learned ...

2032 epouranios - belonging to above-the-ouranos
3321 mesouraneema - middle-of-the-ouranos
3771 ouranothen - from-the-ouranos
3772 ouranos - heaven

I tried them in various orders, trying to figure out which was which and why the prefixes were added the way they were. At one point early on, I thought maybe ...

ouranos = heaven = first heaven = of clouds
mesouraneema = middle of the ouranos = second heaven = of stars
epouranios = belonging to above the ouranos = [of the] third heaven = God's abode.

It seemed reasonable to me, but when I looked up all the verses that used these various Greek words, this formula didn't work. From Scripture, I learned ...

mesouraneema = middle-of-the-ouranos was where the birds flew (Rev. 19:17), and
epouranios = belonging to above-the-ouranos was where the sun, moon, and stars were (1 Cor. 15:40-41).

Birds don't fly in space, the heaven "of stars," and the sun, moon, and stars aren't in "God's abode," according to the theory.

Notice, too, that behind all the prefixes and morphological endings showing parts of speech, person, tense, mood, voice, case, number, gender, and comparison, the fundamental, root word in ALL of these words was "ouranos." And, Strong's Greek Dictionary gave this for its definition:

3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity)
-- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

3735 oros (or'-os). Probably from an obsolete oroo (to rise or "rear"; perhaps akin to airoo; compare ornis); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain):
-hill, mount(-ain).

142 airoo (ah'-ee-ro). A primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. Weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare nasa') to expiate sin
-- away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

3733 ornis (or'-nis). Probably from a prolonged form of the base of oros; a bird (as rising in the air), i.e. (specially), a hen (or female domestic fowl)
-- hen.

Then, too, I found (purely according to God's providence, though some would say "by chance") that the same word was used not once, but FOUR times in as many verses in Matthew 16!

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.' 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring.' O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

Contemplate on this passage. Consider what the Pharisees and Sadducees were asking Him to do with this word, and consider what Yeshua` was saying to them with the SAME WORD.

Read through it about 20 times, and tell me why He used the same word.

So, Roy, according to this, I guess God lives either "nowhere" or "anywhere." Oh, perhaps "somewhere." 

Yet, John saw Him on a throne, Isaiah saw Him on a throne. Ezekiel saw him on a throne - so where is His throne?  I guess there was no Greek or Hebrew word for God's house or home, so they used the only words they had.

For people that have BEEN THERE and came back to tell about it: It is a PLANET with mountain ranges, rivers, valleys. ON the planet is the Holy City. In the Holy city is a palace. Inside the palace is the "throne room." One man estimated the roof of the throne room was a thousand feet up, and the pillars holding the roof were thirty feet in diameter.  However, this will mean nothing to those that ignore personal testimonies. 

[Retrobyter]

On 11/5/2019 at 5:25 PM, iamlamad said:

So, Roy, according to this, I guess God lives either "nowhere" or "anywhere." Oh, perhaps "somewhere." 

Yet, John saw Him on a throne, Isaiah saw Him on a throne. Ezekiel saw him on a throne - so where is His throne?  I guess there was no Greek or Hebrew word for God's house or home, so they used the only words they had.

For people that have BEEN THERE and came back to tell about it: It is a PLANET with mountain ranges, rivers, valleys. ON the planet is the Holy City. In the Holy city is a palace. Inside the palace is the "throne room." One man estimated the roof of the throne room was a thousand feet up, and the pillars holding the roof were thirty feet in diameter.  However, this will mean nothing to those that ignore personal testimonies. 

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry for the delay; life happens.

No, God lives "EVERYWHERE." However, not in the sense of pantheism, but rather in the sense of God PERMEATING His Creation. There is simply no place where God is not! Consider the following song; it's an AMAZING revelation to King David! Look at verses 7 through 16:

Psalm 139:1-24 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.}

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest (microscopic) parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect (immature); and in thy book all my members (body parts) were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect (mature) hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

All three - John, Isaiah, and Ezekiel - has VISIONS given to them by God who COMMANDED them to write His prophecies. What they saw was God's AUTHORITY to reign in His Creation. You must also consider what John - the same John who wrote Revelation - said:

John 1:14-18 (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory [brightness], the glory [brightness] AS of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John (the Baptist) bare witness of him, and cried, saying,

"This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me." 

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah). 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE hath declared him.

What does that mean that Yochanan (John) knew about Yesha`yahuw (Isaiah), Yechezk'el (Ezekiel), and himself?

When you said,

"For people that have BEEN THERE and came back to tell about it: It is a PLANET with mountain ranges, rivers, valleys. ON the planet is the Holy City. In the Holy city is a palace. Inside the palace is the "throne room." One man estimated the roof of the throne room was a thousand feet up, and the pillars holding the roof were thirty feet in diameter.  However, this will mean nothing to those that ignore personal testimonies,"

I say this:

The prophets of God I know; they are CONFIRMED, AUTHENTICATED, and IDENTIFIED IN SCRIPTURE!

I don't know these people and their visions are SUSPECT! They had a particular belief-system before they had their "near death experience" (NOT "after death experience") and under the influence of hypoxia (lack of oxygen), they had their "visions," seeing what they ALREADY BELIEVED!

Others, who have their belief-systems already in place, hear what they have said, or read what they have written, and because their belief-systems match, they believe what these people who had their NDEs said or wrote, but on whose authority have they said or wrote these things?! WE DON'T KNOW THEY CAME FROM GOD! Furthermore, we CAN'T KNOW THEY CAME FROM GOD, because they have nothing different about them than do charlatans - fakes - imposters - frauds - that came before them!

1 John 4:1-3 (KJV)

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit ("breath," words, thoughts behind the words), but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Logically speaking, the two statements,

Every {spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh} is of God;
every {spirit that confesseth NOT that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh} is NOT of God,

are NOT logical contrapositives. They are logical inverses! (A tilde [~] means "not.")

In a conditional statement, P -> Q,
the inverse is ~P -> ~Q,
the converse is Q -> P, and
the contrapositive is ~Q -> ~P.

Only the contrapositive is true for certain, based on the original conditional statement being true. Thus, John has given us two independent statements that add to our knowledge. The second statement is NOT a negative restatement of the first statement. If John had given us the contrapositive, then he would merely have been restating the same piece of information. He didn't do this.

Since the contrapositive of ~P -> ~Q is Q -> P, and we were given that P -> Q,  then we can safely say that ...
P <-> Q.

That is, every spirit that confesses that Yeshua` the Messiah is come in the flesh is EXACTLY the spirit that is of God. That means we can also say that every spirit that is of God is every spirit that confesses that Yeshua` the Messiah is come in the flesh.

This is NOT referring to His First Advent, but to His SECOND, as the Messiah of God for Israel as expected! If someone tells you that Yeshua` the Messiah is NOT coming back in the flesh, HE IS A LIAR! Consequently, if someone tells you that we are going to heaven to be with Him eternally, then he is ALSO a liar! Now, he or she may INADVERTENTLY be lying to you, not knowing the truth of Scripture, but he or she is lying JUST THE SAME!

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV)

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (the sky)."

That is, He is coming back to earth - to the Land - out of the sky! Furthermore, John again tells us that later (after the first 1,000 years of Yeshua`s reign),

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (sky) and a new earth (land): for the first heaven (sky) and the first earth (land) were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the THRONE) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men (not the reverse!), and he will dwell with them (not the reverse!), and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them (not the reverse!), and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Know your facts (from SCRIPTURE) and keep them straight!

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry for the delay; life happens.

No, God lives "EVERYWHERE." However, not in the sense of pantheism, but rather in the sense of God PERMEATING His Creation. There is simply no place where God is not! Consider the following song; it's an AMAZING revelation to King David! Look at verses 7 through 16:

Psalm 139:1-24 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.}

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest (microscopic) parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect (immature); and in thy book all my members (body parts) were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect (mature) hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

All three - John, Isaiah, and Ezekiel - has VISIONS given to them by God who COMMANDED them to write His prophecies. What they saw was God's AUTHORITY to reign in His Creation. You must also consider what John - the same John who wrote Revelation - said:

John 1:14-18 (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory [brightness], the glory [brightness] AS of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John (the Baptist) bare witness of him, and cried, saying,

"This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me." 

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah). 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE hath declared him.

What does that mean that Yochanan (John) knew about Yesha`yahuw (Isaiah), Yechezk'el (Ezekiel), and himself?

When you said,

"For people that have BEEN THERE and came back to tell about it: It is a PLANET with mountain ranges, rivers, valleys. ON the planet is the Holy City. In the Holy city is a palace. Inside the palace is the "throne room." One man estimated the roof of the throne room was a thousand feet up, and the pillars holding the roof were thirty feet in diameter.  However, this will mean nothing to those that ignore personal testimonies,"

I say this:

The prophets of God I know; they are CONFIRMED, AUTHENTICATED, and IDENTIFIED IN SCRIPTURE!

I don't know these people and their visions are SUSPECT! They had a particular belief-system before they had their "near death experience" (NOT "after death experience") and under the influence of hypoxia (lack of oxygen), they had their "visions," seeing what they ALREADY BELIEVED!

Others, who have their belief-systems already in place, hear what they have said, or read what they have written, and because their belief-systems match, they believe what these people who had their NDEs said or wrote, but on whose authority have they said or wrote these things?! WE DON'T KNOW THEY CAME FROM GOD! Furthermore, we CAN'T KNOW THEY CAME FROM GOD, because they have nothing different about them than do charlatans - fakes - imposters - frauds - that came before them!

1 John 4:1-3 (KJV)

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit ("breath," words, thoughts behind the words), but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Logically speaking, the two statements,

Every {spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh} is of God;
every {spirit that confesseth NOT that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh} is NOT of God,

are NOT logical contrapositives. They are logical inverses! (A tilde [~] means "not.")

In a conditional statement, P -> Q,
the inverse is ~P -> ~Q,
the converse is Q -> P, and
the contrapositive is ~Q -> ~P.

Only the contrapositive is true for certain, based on the original conditional statement being true. Thus, John has given us two independent statements that add to our knowledge. The second statement is NOT a negative restatement of the first statement. If John had given us the contrapositive, then he would merely have been restating the same piece of information. He didn't do this.

Since the contrapositive of ~P -> ~Q is Q -> P, and we were given that P -> Q,  then we can safely say that ...
P <-> Q.

That is, every spirit that confesses that Yeshua` the Messiah is come in the flesh is EXACTLY the spirit that is of God. That means we can also say that every spirit that is of God is every spirit that confesses that Yeshua` the Messiah is come in the flesh.

This is NOT referring to His First Advent, but to His SECOND, as the Messiah of God for Israel as expected! If someone tells you that Yeshua` the Messiah is NOT coming back in the flesh, HE IS A LIAR! Consequently, if someone tells you that we are going to heaven to be with Him eternally, then he is ALSO a liar! Now, he or she may INADVERTENTLY be lying to you, not knowing the truth of Scripture, but he or she is lying JUST THE SAME!

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV)

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (the sky)."

That is, He is coming back to earth - to the Land - out of the sky! Furthermore, John again tells us that later (after the first 1,000 years of Yeshua`s reign),

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (sky) and a new earth (land): for the first heaven (sky) and the first earth (land) were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the THRONE) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men (not the reverse!), and he will dwell with them (not the reverse!), and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them (not the reverse!), and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Know your facts (from SCRIPTURE) and keep them straight!

You are right, I missed a good one: EVERYWHERE. But this brings up yet another question: is "everywhere" only for the Holy Spirit? Or is God the Father (always seen on His throne) also everywhere at once? Was the preincarnate Son everywhere at once? He was with Abraham and Abraham SAW Him. It would be very difficult to prove Abraham saw a vision of Him. It would also be very difficult to prove that Moses saw only a vision of the back side of Him.

It seems that Isaiah was there in the throne room, but still, it could have been a vision. 

As for people that have testimonies of having been to heaven, you missed a good verse: "you shall know them by their fruits."  A good tree cannot produce bad fruit.  When someone has been preaching Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, year after year, bearing good fruit, and preaching the true gospel of Christ, we have evidence they are born again. Of course only God can see the heart, but we see the fruit. When the disciples met Paul, they did not question that he was born again. They knew it by his fruit. 

There is another point:  Jesus said No man has seen God at any time.  Is this a true statement for ALL time? I don't think so. It was a true statement at that time. Do you imagine Jesus is going to rule with a rod of iron and be invisible? I don't think so! Was Jesus "GOD" in the flesh? Certainly He was. Yet He said while being God in the flesh that no man has seen God. He was therefore probably referring to God the Father. Mary saw Him after He rose, as did up to 500 people! 

It seems then that you are one that denys a rapture to heaven. I could then say to you, "know your facts from scripture!" Jesus went to heaven (NOT JUST THE SKY) to build homes for us. One day He is coming to get us and take us to those homes He has prepared. You can deny this the rest of your life on earth, but when it HAPPENS, then perhaps you will acknowledge it is truth!  How will you be able to deny it if you are IN your mansion IN heaven, and seeing it is a planet?

Edited November 9, 2019 by iamlamad

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 You are right, I missed a good one: EVERYWHERE. But this brings up yet another question: is "everywhere" only for the Holy Spirit? Or is God the Father (always seen on His throne) also everywhere at once? Was the preincarnate Son everywhere at once? He was with Abraham and Abraham SAW Him. It would be very difficult to prove Abraham saw a vision of Him. It would also be very difficult to prove that Moses saw only a vision of the back side of Him.

Shalom, iamlamad.

What did Yeshua` say about His Father, whom He identified to others as "God?"

John 4:19-26 (KJV)

19 The woman saith unto him,

"Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye ('you' plural, the Jews, including Yeshua`) say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."

21 Jesus saith unto her,

"Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye ('you' plural, the Samaritans or Shomroniym, including the woman) worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit ('breath' - words - the thoughts behind the words) and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

25 The woman saith unto him,

"I know that Messias (Greek transliteration of the Hebrew word 'Mashiyach' or 'Messiah') cometh, which is called Christ (Greek translation of 'Mashiyach': 'Christos' = 'Anointed One'): when he is come, he will tell us all things."

26 Jesus saith unto her,

"I that speak unto thee am he."

Yeshua` NEVER identified Himself as just "God"; He usually referred to Himself as the "Son of man," but occasionally He accepted being identified as "the Son of God." He was advertized that He was by the demons (Matthew 8:29) and the devil (Matthew 4:6), and He allowed Pilate to call Him that (Luke 22:70). Shim`own Kefa ("Simon Peter") acknowledged Him as such:

Matthew 16:16 (KJV)

16 And Simon Peter answered and said,

"Thou art the Christ (again, Greek 'Christos'), the Son of the living God."

 I believe that the God, Yeshua`s "Father," who is a Spirit and who said, "Be ye holy for I am holy," IS the "Holy Spirit!"

Leviticus 11:44-45 (KJV)

44 "For I am the LORD (YHWH) your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy."

Regarding your question, "Was the preincarnate Son everywhere at once?" there's no such thing as the "preincarnate Son." That's something that theologians invented. The Scriptures say,

John 1:1-5, 14 (KJV)

1 In the beginning was THE WORD (Greek: ho Logos), and THE WORD was with God, and THE WORD was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
...

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory [John was one of the few on the Mount of Transfiguration], the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

He was named before His conception by the messenger Gavri'el ("Gabriel"):

Luke 1:26-35ff (KJV)

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel (Hebrew: Gavri'el) was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary (Hebrew: Miryam). 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said,

"Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women!"

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous = Hebrew: Yeeshuwa` = "He shall save"). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

34 Then said Mary unto the angel,

"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

35 And the angel answered and said unto her,

"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called 'the Son of God.' ..."

His name doesn't mean "Jah shall save." That's the name "Jehoshua," "Jehoshuah," or "Joshua":  "Yhowshuwa`." Here's where a study of the Hebrew GRAMMAR would be helpful! His name, "Yeeshuwa`" or "Yeshua," means "HE shall save" or "HE shall deliver" or "HE shall rescue." It's the third person, masculine, singular form of the verb! In Hebrew, verbs also carry person, gender, and number and must agree with the subject.

Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV)

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying,

"Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name 'JESUS' (Greek: Ieesous = Hebrew: Yeeshuwa` = "He shall save"): for 'he shall save' his people from their sins."

As the WORD, He was God - and therefore, He had all the attributes of God. However, when He was incarnated, He BECAME flesh and was GIVEN the name "Yeeshuwa`" after His birth by both His mother and His stepfather. It was THEN that He began to be called "the Son of the Highest" or "the Son of God!" Notice, too, that Gavri'el doesn't say whether this is a good thing or a bad thing; it's just a statement of fact: "He ... shall be called the Son of the Highest," right or wrong.

Actually, I believe that this is the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant prophecy, as Gavri'el said:

1 Chronicles 17:7-14 (KJV)

7 "Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David,

'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel: 8 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth. 9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning, 10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house. 11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I WILL BE HIS FATHER, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore."'"

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It seems that Isaiah was there in the throne room, but still, it could have been a vision. 

As for people that have testimonies of having been to heaven, you missed a good verse: "you shall know them by their fruits."  A good tree cannot produce bad fruit.  When someone has been preaching Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, year after year, bearing good fruit, and preaching the true gospel of Christ, we have evidence they are born again. Of course only God can see the heart, but we see the fruit. When the disciples met Paul, they did not question that he was born again. They knew it by his fruit.

Actually, the verse you are talking about has a different context than that for which you are using it. Here's the context:

Matthew 7:13-23 (KJV)

13 "... Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me,

'Lord, Lord,' ('Master! Master!') 

shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day,

'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?'

23 And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.' ..."

The context suggests that these "fruits" are OFFSPRING, not deeds! In point of fact, the deeds in verse 22 count as NOTHING by comparison! The context is talking about a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP - SONSHIP - with the Father! Even the best "soul-winners" can be deceived and can be wrong!

Furthermore, the disciples didn't trust Paul at first! It wasn't UNTIL they got to know him better that they lowered their guard!

Acts 9:26-31 (KJV)

26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. 28 And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem. 29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. 30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus.

31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is another point:  Jesus said No man has seen God at any time.  Is this a true statement for ALL time? I don't think so. It was a true statement at that time. Do you imagine Jesus is going to rule with a rod of iron and be invisible? I don't think so! Was Jesus "GOD" in the flesh? Certainly He was. Yet He said while being God in the flesh that no man has seen God. He was therefore probably referring to God the Father. Mary saw Him after He rose, as did up to 500 people! 

This goes back to my previous argument: Yeshua` was the Word in the flesh, the Word was God before that, but we are NOT told that Yeshua` is God! He is identified now as "the SON of God." The Word was made and is now FLESH, and even resurrected flesh is LIMITED in ways that God never was! He is no longer omnipresent! He is LOCALIZED to a three-dimensional space! That's important because, as Paul noted,

1 Timothy 2:1-6 (KJV)

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The Word opted for a physical and limited body of flesh to become Yeshua` our mediator and pay our ransom.

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It seems then that you are one that denies a rapture to heaven. I could then say to you, "know your facts from scripture!" Jesus went to heaven (NOT JUST THE SKY) to build homes for us. One day He is coming to get us and take us to those homes He has prepared. You can deny this the rest of your life on earth, but when it HAPPENS, then perhaps you will acknowledge it is truth!  How will you be able to deny it if you are IN your mansion IN heaven, and seeing it is a planet?

I do indeed deny a rapture to some mythical place called "Heaven!" That's a LIE invented by someone who didn't know the Scriptures! Yeshua` didn't go to "Heaven" to build homes for us; He went to THE NEW JERUSALEM, YERUSHALAYIM HA-CHADASHAH, to build homes for us. HOWEVER, we don't go there; it comes HERE! And, it doesn't come right away! It has at least A THOUSAND YEARS before it lands on the New Earth, fashioned from the old!

We're not moving to some other planet; God is RECLAIMING HIS OWN CREATION! That's what "REDEEMING" means! He's not going to suffer a loss of any kind to haSatan! That would be admitting that haSatan won in some sense!

Romans 8:18-25 (KJV)

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory (literal brightness) which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest (downpayment) expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (THIS is Resurrection!) 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Read Revelation 20:7-22:5 in a single sitting.

 

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I do indeed deny a rapture to some mythical place called "Heaven!" That's a LIE invented by someone who didn't know the Scriptures! Yeshua` didn't go to "Heaven" to build homes for us; He went to THE NEW JERUSALEM, YERUSHALAYIM HA-CHADASHAH, to build homes for us. HOWEVER, we don't go there; it comes HERE! And, it doesn't come right away! It has at least A THOUSAND YEARS before it lands on the New Earth, fashioned from the old!

We're not moving to some other planet; God is RECLAIMING HIS OWN CREATION! That's what "REDEEMING" means! He's not going to suffer a loss of any kind to haSatan! That would be admitting that haSatan won in some sense!

Romans 8:18-25 (KJV)

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory (literal brightness) which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest (downpayment) expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (THIS is Resurrection!) 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Read Revelation 20:7-22:5 in a single sitting.

 

In much of what you wrote, I agree. I might add, He was also called "the Redeemer" in the Old Testament.  It seems you do not see the trinity as I do. God said He would make man in HIS IMAGE and after HIS LIKENESS. We as humans are a three part being also: and according to Paul are spirit, soul and body.  I am convinced by the New Testament that the soul part of man is the intellect, will, emotions and affections - but I want to emphasis WILL.

Since we are made in His image, of course GOD is in three parts: Spirit, soul and body.  It is easy to see that the spirit part of God is the Holy Spirit. It is easy to see that the body part of God is the WORD or Redeemer who was SEEN by men in the Old Testament. The only one left is the soul of God, and I think it is easy to see that our Father God is the WILL of the Godhead. It was the WORD part of God, the seen part under the old, that places Himself INSIDE the created SEED that caused Mary to conceive. Therefore, if anyone could have seen in the spirit realm and looked inside the body of Jesus, they would have seen THE WORD - the very being that in the beginning say "LIGHT BE."

As for the rapture, if it is possible, and if I remember, I will wave at you on our way up. You can remain behind and maybe even watch us go.  I do hope this works out well for you.