apostasia

[wingnut-]

Just now, Revelation Man said:

I was hearing the exact same thing 10 years ago, and it made ZERO SENSE to me then either. And its still being repeated today, the fact that you still repeat it means you don't understand the text at all.  I actually went over this with someone about a year ago and figured out why they were misconstruing the text, and then showed then why it was erroneous, but I can't remember now why they thought that, all I know is the verse is vert clear, but those who can't see the Pre Trib have to latch on to anything they can get I guess. 

 

ORIGIN OF APOSTASY

1350–1400; Middle English apostasye (< Anglo-French) < Late Latin apostasia < Greek: a standing away, withdrawing, equivalent to apóstas(is) (apo- apo- + sta- stand + -sis -sis) + -ia -ia

 

 

noun, plural a·pos·ta·sies.

a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.

 

 

This has nothing to do with pre-trib, it has to do with the understanding of the word, where it is derived from, and what it means.  As I stated before, when one uses the word apostate or apostasy, we all know very well this is a negative thing.  Unfortunately some have decided to take this very negative thing and turn it into something else in order to create what they believe is an argument to support something else.  The only thing this has to do with pre-trib, is that it is pre-trib that wants to twist the meaning of this word.

[Justin Adams]

Copied from Logos Bible Software.

[Revelation Man]

On 11/10/2019 at 11:44 AM, wingnut- said:

This has nothing to do with pre-trib, it has to do with the understanding of the word, where it is derived from, and what it means.  As I stated before, when one uses the word apostate or apostasy, we all know very well this is a negative thing.  Unfortunately some have decided to take this very negative thing and turn it into something else in order to create what they believe is an argument to support something else.  The only thing this has to do with pre-trib, is that it is pre-trib that wants to twist the meaning of this word.

I could care less what it came to mean or to be seen by people like you as meaning because of their understanding of the word apostasy, I only care about what the Greek word means unto Paul who wrote it. 

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

It only means an Apostasy as per the modern understanding IF its a Leaving of ONES FAITH !! This is too funny that people argue this chapter is about a Departing of the Faith when NOWHERE in the chapter is Faith even spoken of. What is being spoken of is a Gathering unto Christ Jesus, and thus we DEPART from this Earth {our current standing} BEFORE the Day of the Lord arrives !! 

When you can show me the FAITH that they are Departing from in the chapter I might take this argument as being serious brother. You can't go into a court of law, make an argument, and when asked by the Judge to explain just says WELL, because it is. 

Show me where they are speaking about Faith, they aren't, the whole chapter is about the Thessalonians being in FEAR because they think they are going to face God's Wrath, and Paul says, HOLD UP MEN...I done told you when I was with you, the Church {THEM in Thessalonica } were going to depart from this earth BEFORE Gods Wrath falls on mankind. 

I don't care what men think it means, only what Paul meant when he wrote it. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I done told you when I was with you, the Church {THEM in Thessolanica} were going to depart from this earth BEFORE Gods Wrath falls on mankind. 

True. But wrath isn't tribulation. Pretrib loves to conflate the two.

"646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing.""

Indeed. And where in this definition do we find "physically abducted from one place and taken to another"? 

You leave out the definition of apostasia and instead go with the definition of aphistemi, when aphistemi is not the word in the text!

Then you skip over the true concept of aphistemi, "properly, departure (implying desertion)". Implying desertion?! And you infer "a physical abduction from one place and taken to another" from that?

Did you miss that part where aphistemi is an personal act by an individual or group of individuals? No outside force acts in a physical abduction. It's "a leaving, from a previous standing."  They walked away fully cognizant, they were not removed physically by a supernatural force. 

But aphistemi is not the word used in 2 Thess 2, the word Paul wrote is apostasia. The definition of apostasia is rebellion, revolt, defection. And it's truth no matter how you try to spin it.

No one is going anywhere before the beast is revealed. No early train. No get out of jail free card. 

 Pretrib will demand the seats at the front of the bus but is willing to thrust countless millions into the darkest, deadliest times ever to occur in history. 

The doctrine literally says the adherents are walking the earth in perfect righteousness without spot of blemish akin to Enoch, Elijah and Jesus. Astounding arrogance!

It's a tyrannical, dictatorial doctrine that concludes, "They deserve to suffer, not us!", in opposition to the teachings and acts of Jesus and Paul which says, "Take me Father, so they do not suffer!".

 

[Brother Duke]

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

[Revelation Man]

On 11/12/2019 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

True. But wrath isn't tribulation. Pretrib loves to conflate the two.

 

In this case the greatest Troubles of ALL TIME coincides with God's Wrath. Jesus releases the AC via the first four seals, these all cover 42 months. The Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal covers 42 months, than on the SAME DAY {Day 1261} the 6th Seal is opened, releasing God's Wrath. 

The two cover the same time frame, they just do. It is what it is, God acts how He sees fit. I just read the passages brother.

On 11/12/2019 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

"646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing.""

Indeed. And where in this definition do we find "physically abducted from one place and taken to another"? 

I beseech you or ASK URGENTLY, by coming of the Lord Jesus and the Gathering unto him.........So the whole Subject here that there is no need to FEAR the Wrath of God, because we are going to be gathered unto Jesus Christ first. 

The ESV explains this better, but they make the same mistake via the Translation, they call it a Rebellion, but it makes ZERO SENSE unless you insert the Church Departs [from the earth].

2 Thessalonians 2 English Standard Version (ESV)

The Man of Lawlessness

2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion {Unless the Church Departs First] comes first, AND the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,

CONCERNING the Church being GATHERED unto Jesus........we tell you DON'T BE ALARMED !! No matter what you hear or see from others who tell you that you are in GOD'S WRATH {DOTL}.........I am telling you, THAT DAY {DOTL} can not come CAN NOT COME !! UNTIL...............{Here Paul's goes back to the very first verse as CONCERNING the Rapture of the Church being Gathered unto Jesus} UNTIL the Departure [of the Church] NOT of the Faith which is MENTIONED NOWHERE !!! The gathering of the Church is the SUBJECT !! '

THAT DAY {DOTL} can not come until two things happen first, the VERY THING in the First verse must happen......The Departure of the Church would ALLAY THEIR FEARS !! And the Anti-Christ/Man of Sin must show up or be REVEALED, this allays their fears also, because they know that Man is not on earth yet. 

So the SUBJECT Brother is about NOT FEARING because the Thessalonians can't go through the day of the lord until the Church Departs AND the Man of Sin comes forth. So the DEPARTURE of the Church is the Rapture, and we see it spoken of in  VERSE ONE !!

On 11/12/2019 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

You leave out the definition of apostasia and instead go with the definition of aphistemi, when aphistemi is not the word in the text!

 

The first seven English Bibles had Departure, as did the Latin Vulgate. Root Words matter, not what words later morphed into.

On 11/12/2019 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

Then you skip over the true concept of aphistemi, "properly, departure (implying desertion)". Implying desertion?! And you infer "a physical abduction from one place and taken to another" from that?

The Church DESERTS this earth !! We get gone brother.......... ZOOMZOOM.

On 11/12/2019 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

Did you miss that part where aphistemi is an personal act by an individual or group of individuals? No outside force acts in a physical abduction. It's "a leaving, from a previous standing."  They walked away fully cognizant, they were not removed physically by a supernatural force. 

You have to read these passages without prejudice brother to get to the facts. If one goes in with an agenda they are going to see what the want to see. It is clearly speaking about the Gathering unto Christ and thus NOT FEARING the DOTL. The Previous STANDING was the Church on Earth, who will then be in Heaven, that is a paradigm shift. A previous standing so to speak. 

On 11/12/2019 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

But aphistemi is not the word used in 2 Thess 2, the word Paul wrote is apostasia. The definition of apostasia is rebellion, revolt, defection. And it's truth no matter how you try to spin it.

 

There is a reason the first 7 English versions and the Latin Vulgate used Departure, just because the KJV called it Apostasy and thus it erroneously became know as such, doesn't mean it meant Apostasy. If in some 200 years time someone sees a 1930 book using Gay, and they argue it means a homosexual, but someone else said, well 270 years ago it actually meant happy, BEFORE it morphed into meaning Homosexuality/or Gay. That is the way words morph brother. I just watched the Patterns of Evidence, the Moses Controversy, it shows how the wwwwwwww wave become the letter w or M I forget which it became I think it had a sound of MMMmmmm, and the Horned bull became the letter a. Its a very interesting documentary. 

On 11/12/2019 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

No one is going anywhere before the beast is revealed. No early train. No get out of jail free card. 

 

We don't need a get out of jail free card, Jesus is our Passover, we can't EARN Salvation brother, its a fee gift of course. We will not be on this earth for the 70th week, Satan has been busy confusing people brother. BE HAPPY. 

On 11/12/2019 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

Pretrib will demand the seats at the front of the bus but is willing to thrust countless millions into the darkest, deadliest times ever to occur in history. 

Its factual, nothing else matters but the facts right ?

On 11/12/2019 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

he doctrine literally says the adherents are walking the earth in perfect righteousness without spot of blemish akin to Enoch, Elijah and Jesus. Astounding arrogance!

It's a tyrannical, dictatorial doctrine that concludes, "They deserve to suffer, not us!", in opposition to the teachings and acts of Jesus and Paul which says, "Take me Father, so they do not suffer!".

Who is THEY ? If they are the Wicked Tares then THEY DESERVE Judgment I guess.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I beseech you or ASK URGENTLY, by coming of the Lord Jesus and the Gathering unto him.........So the whole Subject here that there is no need to FEAR the Wrath of God, because we are going to be gathered unto Jesus Christ first. 

Ignoring the reality of the Pretrib doctrine yet again.

1 Cor 15:51 has no reference to apostasia.

1 Thess 4:17. "...shall be caught up..",  harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly)."

This is all our hopes and dreams, or should be, and you are saying harpazo is equivalent in concept and action to apostasia? Nonsense.

There isn't even a reference to harpazo in 2 Thess 2. The gathering in that passage is in reference to the assembly of the people of God, " episynagōgḗ – a specific (apt) "grouping together" that fulfills (builds on) the specific purpose of the gathering together." "Our gathering..." is literally 'a company assembled'. The two aren't even the same part of speech, yet you equate them. More nonsense.

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Church DESERTS this earth !! We get gone brother.......... ZOOMZOOM.

No. Harpazo, "properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly)." 

We are taken. We cannot desert the earth. Where do we go and how do we get there of our own power? We can't. Pretrib loves to say how we are gathered but then says we leave under our own power when it suits.

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The first seven English Bibles had Departure, as did the Latin Vulgate. Root Words matter, not what words later morphed into.

All evidence to the contrary. I had this discussion before. Dicessio is also a defection, a departure from an ideology, and was used mostly in a political context. Look it up. 

In any case, apostasia appears in the text and is defined as revolt or rebellion as far back as I can find, about the 4th century if memory serves.

But continue to twist. It's your life. You have been informed.

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I beseech you or ASK URGENTLY, by coming of the Lord Jesus and the Gathering unto him.........So the whole Subject here that there is no need to FEAR the Wrath of God, because we are going to be gathered unto Jesus Christ first. 

No, again. It's not the whole thing. Paul was combating the false reports of the return of Jesus as if it already happened. The whole point is to remind the people of what comes before the Return and the gathering, rebellion of God's people against Him and the revealing of the beast. 

You do realize your take on 2 Thess 2 says that the gathering must occur before the gathering? 

[Revelation Man]

On 11/13/2019 at 4:33 AM, Diaste said:

Ignoring the reality of the Pretrib doctrine yet again.

1 Cor 15:51 has no reference to apostasia.

1 Thess 4:17. "...shall be caught up..",  harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly)."

This is all our hopes and dreams, or should be, and you are saying harpazo is equivalent in concept and action to apostasia? Nonsense.

There isn't even a reference to harpazo in 2 Thess 2. The gathering in that passage is in reference to the assembly of the people of God, " episynagōgḗ – a specific (apt) "grouping together" that fulfills (builds on) the specific purpose of the gathering together." "Our gathering..." is literally 'a company assembled'. The two aren't even the same part of speech, yet you equate them. More nonsense.

Paul was not trying to get the Corinthians to understand they WERE NOT in the DOTL. In 2. Thess. 2 he wants them to know the Church will be DEPARTING before the DOTL comes. Here hes teaching the Corinthians how the Rapture is going to happen, hes not trying to overtly convince them the Church will depart, they seemingly didn't have the same problem the Thessalonians had. 

The Church can be SNATCHED AWAY by force and DEPART at the same time right ? I mean,theoretically that would seem to jibe. If the Church Departs, it would have to be by the force of the Holy Spirit would it not ?

Snatched away = too Depart. 

On 11/13/2019 at 4:33 AM, Diaste said:

No. Harpazo, "properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly)." 

We are taken. We cannot desert the earth. Where do we go and how do we get there of our own power? We can't. Pretrib loves to say how we are gathered but then says we leave under our own power when it suits.

We DESERT our previous STANDING. It simply means to go away from. We can use hundreds of words, it all means the same thing, we were on the EARTH............we are then suddenly in Heaven. We have changed a PREVIOUS STANDING. 

On 11/13/2019 at 4:33 AM, Diaste said:

All evidence to the contrary. I had this discussion before. Dicessio is also a defection, a departure from an ideology, and was used mostly in a political context. Look it up. 

In any case, apostasia appears in the text and is defined as revolt or rebellion as far back as I can find, about the 4th century if memory serves.

But continue to twist. It's your life. You have been informed.

It means DEPARTED from the faith and has become knows as a Rebellion, again, I don;t care about what it means now, only what Paul meant via the words he used. I can show you thousands of words that morph over time. A Rebellion makes absolutely zero sense in that conversation, the Church Departing makes perfect sense, because its the SUBJECT in the very first verse. 

This is why Paul's letters should not have been Canonized, they were not the full correspondence and thus can be deceiving unless one can see what the Spirit is saying, and we have to try the spirits, but clear, concise wording is easier to decipher. When Paul says I told you these things when I was yet with you, if we KNEW what he told them it would be that Thessalonians were not going to go through God's Wrath, because the Church will be taken out by force BEFORE the DOTL. 

On 11/13/2019 at 4:33 AM, Diaste said:

No, again. It's not the whole thing. Paul was combating the false reports of the return of Jesus as if it already happened. The whole point is to remind the people of what comes before the Return and the gathering, rebellion of God's people against Him and the revealing of the beast. 

You do realize your take on 2 Thess 2 says that the gathering must occur before the gathering? 

No it is not, it that the Gathering must occur BEFORE the Day of the Lord.........Now I remember what had that guy saying that, and its a bogus saying, in which the post tribbers side should stop using, since they know what the Pre trib guys believe.

We Pre-tribbers understand that there is a RAPTURE that happens 7 years BEFORE the Second Coming. 

So we are GATHERED at a separate time then the Gentile Martyrs and the Jews who REPENT DURING the 70th Week. 

So we are Gathered BEFORE the Second Coming which matches Rev. 19 doesn't it brother ? Rev. 19 says we Marry the Lamb then RETURN with Jesus where the Beast and all his minions are gathered to Battle God.

So the Church is Gathered to go Marry the Lamb. The WEDDING DOOR is closed on the 5 foolish virgins {Gentiles will repent after the Rapture and those will be the Martyrs under the 5th Seal Altar}. The Jews {WHEAT} remain on earth with the WICKED TARES until the very end. The Church doesn't.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

On 11/13/2019 at 11:45 AM, Revelation Man said:

Paul was not trying to get the Corinthians to understand they WERE NOT in the DOTL. In 2. Thess. 2 he wants them to know the Church will be DEPARTING before the DOTL comes. Here hes teaching the Corinthians how the Rapture is going to happen, hes not trying to overtly convince them the Church will depart, they seemingly didn't have the same problem the Thessalonians had. 

The Church can be SNATCHED AWAY by force and DEPART at the same time right ? I mean,theoretically that would seem to jibe. If the Church Departs, it would have to be by the force of the Holy Spirit would it not ?

Snatched away = too Depart. 

If your 2nd sentence is accurate then the 'departing' would have to happen before the departing.

It seems quite open: "For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed." He's saying  we will be changed and it applies to the living as the timing of the end of the age was and still is a mystery. It could have happened in the lifetime of the early church members.

Sure, the body of believers will indeed experience 'harpazo'. That does not speak to timing, just the fact of the 'harpazo'.

 

On 11/13/2019 at 11:45 AM, Revelation Man said:

We DESERT our previous STANDING. It simply means to go away from. We can use hundreds of words, it all means the same thing, we were on the EARTH............we are then suddenly in Heaven. We have changed a PREVIOUS STANDING. 

In no way is this term used as 'departing from one place to go to another'. It's used in every case as a departure from ideology. It does not mean the same thing!

Harpazo means the same thing as aphistemi? Then why didn't Paul interchange them? Or use the term harpazo in 2 Thess 2 in place of the word that appears, apostasia?

This may work on those you have met over the course of your life but it doesn't fly when the truth is known.

On 11/13/2019 at 11:45 AM, Revelation Man said:

It means DEPARTED from the faith and has become knows as a Rebellion, again, I don;t care about what it means now, only what Paul meant via the words he used. I can show you thousands of words that morph over time. A Rebellion makes absolutely zero sense in that conversation, the Church Departing makes perfect sense, because its the SUBJECT in the very first verse. 

The subject of the first verse is primarily "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ," this is the first subject mentioned, the gathering is mentioned next and is linked to the 2nd coming. Hence both occur together.

This is not true: "It means DEPARTED from the faith and has become knows as a Rebellion". Both 'aphistemi' and 'dicessio' were applied to political ideology as far back as I can find. The terms were used to describe politicians that changed their minds in matters of State depending on the advantage to them or outside pressures; and this is from ancient times.

But it doesn't matter as 'apostasia' is the word used and has always meant revolt, defection or rebellion. 

Pretrib builds it's case almost entirely on 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4, and uses the terms 'harpazo' and 'egeiro' to explain why the gathering must happen pretrib and at no other time. So why did Paul not use these terms in 2 Thess 2 when setting the timing for the gathering? It's because he said exactly what he meant as guided by the Spirit. 

Rebellion of the church first, the revealing of the man of sin at the midpoint and only after this the Return of Jesus and the gathering; mirroring Matt 24:29-31.

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This is why Paul's letters should not have been Canonized, 

Oh? You have no authority to say what the Spirit led men to do in regards to scripture! I'm literally laughing at this. Self aggrandizement is just too funny to me. But it will get you trouble as well. 

Quote

if we KNEW what he told them it would be that Thessalonians were not going to go through God's Wrath, because the Church will be taken out by force BEFORE the DOTL. 

Not sure this can be accurate in any way when you just said we don't have the full correspondence. "IF we knew..." you said, "IT WOULD BE..." You're basing a certainty on nothing. 

On 11/13/2019 at 11:45 AM, Revelation Man said:

No it is not, it that the Gathering must occur BEFORE the Day of the Lord.........Now I remember what had that guy saying that, and its a bogus saying, in which the post tribbers side should stop using, since they know what the Ore trib guys believe.

Whatever one believes makes no difference as it's the interpretation of the passage that causes this issue. You demand that 'apostasia' is 'harpazo' or that 'aphistemi' is the 'departing from place to go to another', and that this must come before the DOTL. But that causes a problem in the passage as this, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, (your 'departure')" must happen before this, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him".

You do see that? 

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We Pre-tribbers understand that there is a RAPTURE that happens 7 years BEFORE the Second Coming. 

So we are GATHERED at a separate time then the Gentile Martyrs and the Jews who REPENT DURING the 70th Week. 

Not the truth. It's a hope built on fear of what's coming. It's amazing really. You have no problem removing the blessed hope of the 100,000 that die every year in the name of Jesus in favor of saving your own skin through false doctrine, it's a good thing doctrines of men count for nothing, and throwing countless millions into the most evil time in all history, as long as it's not you and your ilk that have to endure. 

So where is the 'rapture' for the 100,000 that are martyred every year for the name of Jesus and the testimony they hold? 

Where is their early ticket out to avoid persecution and death at the hands the enemy? 

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So we are Gathered BEFORE the Second Coming which matches Rev. 19 doesn't it brother ? Rev. 10 says we Marry the Lamb then RETURN with Jesus where the Beast and all his minions are gathered to Battle God.

Totally untrue. The group that follows Jesus from heaven to earth are strateuma: an expedition, an army, a company of soldiers. NOT the Saints.

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So the Church is Gathered to go Marry the Lamb. The WEDDING DOOR is closed on the 5 foolish virgins {Gentiles will repent after the Rapture and those will be the Martyrs under the 5th Seal Altar}. The Jews {WHEAT} remain on earth with the WICKED TARES until the very end. The Church doesn't. 

You're wrong here as well. There are only believers in Jesus and those who do not believe. There is no 'church' as you and your ecumenical brethren define it. This statement reveals insight into the pretrib lie. Fundamentally pretrib is perfect before the Lord, and neither the Jews or anyone else is and they deserve punishment, and persecution, and death as they are not perfect before the Lord.

Again, what of the 100,000 that die for Jesus every year? Are they following the Lord or not? If they are dying in His name they must be following Him. Why don't they get a rapture before they suffer?

Pretribbers are in for a rude awakening. Best get ready as none of us are going anywhere early.

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Diaste

[Diaste]

 

 

On 11/12/2019 at 8:01 PM, Revelation Man said:

In this case the greatest Troubles of ALL TIME coincides with God's Wrath. Jesus releases the AC via the first four seals, these all cover 42 months. The Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal covers 42 months, than on the SAME DAY {Day 1261} the 6th Seal is opened, releasing God's Wrath. 

The two cover the same time frame, they just do. It is what it is, God acts how He sees fit. I just read the passages brother.

Amazing! No proof, "they just do". You have nothing. 

On 11/12/2019 at 8:01 PM, Revelation Man said:

I beseech you or ASK URGENTLY, by coming of the Lord Jesus and the Gathering unto him.........So the whole Subject here that there is no need to FEAR the Wrath of God, because we are going to be gathered unto Jesus Christ first. 

Ha! The subject here is the false doctrine surrounding the DOTL and when it will happen and what should precede the Day. Your idea is something advanced by the charlatan Lindsey back in the 60's.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Diaste