apostasia

[Diaste]

On 11/12/2019 at 8:01 PM, Revelation Man said:

You have to read these passages without prejudice brother to get to the facts. If one goes in with an agenda they are going to see what the want to see. It is clearly speaking about the Gathering unto Christ and thus NOT FEARING the DOTL. The Previous STANDING was the Church on Earth, who will then be in Heaven, that is a paradigm shift. A previous standing so to speak. 

There is no weight to your 'thus' as the conclusion is not supported by either the text nor logical process. 

"Jim is a man."

"Men are mortal."

"Jim is Mortal."  Truth as both premises are true and the conclusion contains a fact from each premise. What you do is:

"The dog is black."

"Labradors are black."

"The dog is a Labrador."  Even though this contains fact it is not true as many different types of dogs are black and not all Labradors are black.

Not fearing the DOTL does not appear in the text and is a false premise ergo; your conclusion is false.

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

If your 2nd sentence is accurate then the 'departing' would have to happen before the departing.

 

Not so, it means there is a Rapture of the Church and then a Second Coming where NO ONE actually Departs, they are rescued by Jesus when the Church returns with Jesus. You guys believe the Second Coming is the Departure, I don't, I think its the Second Coming of Jesus, with the Church in tow. A departure is a departure when one departs, not when they return. You seem to conflate the Second Coming with THAT DAY, but its not the same.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

It seems quite open: "For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed." He's saying  we will be changed and it applies to the living as the timing of the end of the age was and still is a mystery. It could have happened in the lifetime of the early church members.

Sure, the body of believers will indeed experience 'harpazo'. That does not speak to timing, just the fact of the 'harpazo'.

The dead are raised INCORRUPTIBLE {Means WITHOUT Sin Flesh} or as Spirit men. Back up and read the verses prior to verse 51 for the contextual understanding of this passage. Then one can see what is being referenced, its about the Corrupt Sin Flesh being RAISED as SPIRIT MEN !! 

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption {Sin Flesh}; it is raised in incorruption {As Spirit Men, SEE BELOW}:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So the Dead are RAISED without Sin Flesh as SPIRIT MEN, we go to Heaven where we receive our WHITE ROBES {Heavenly Bodies}.  So the WE WILL BE CHANGED  portion you cite above means we can't go to Heaven with this Sin Flesh. {Jesus told Mary, Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father ]to offer the Sacrifice}. Her touching with the Sin Flesh would have defiled the offering, thus why would one think our Sin Flesh can enter Heaven, it can't, thus why would we not have to be CHANGED in the TWINKLING of an eye {flash/moment in time} from our SIN FLESH unto the SAME Spirit Men that are raise from the Grave WITHOUT their corrupted Sin Flesh !! So in lay mans terms, we die or in technical terms, we leave our body to go be with the Lord and thus our Flesh Man will die, because the Flesh Man can't live without the Spirit Man. 

The timing is the issue, it seems, but the clues are all around us. In Rev, 19 we go marry the Lamb in Heaven, then return with Christ for the Marriage Supper which is Armageddon, where we defeat the Beast who is STILL ON EARTH. Rev. 4 and 5 shows the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened and Rev. 7:9-16 shows the Church in Heaven AFTER the Seals are opened, save the 7th Seal which is technically the 7 Trumps. The Jewish Marriage is 7 days in the fathers house {we live in the Fathers Mansion for 7 years. Our mission on earth is complete in Matt. 24:14, when we take the Gospel unto the ends of the earth. 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

In no way is this term used as 'departing from one place to go to another'. It's used in every case as a departure from ideology. It does not mean the same thing!

Harpazo means the same thing as aphistemi? Then why didn't Paul interchange them? Or use the term harpazo in 2 Thess 2 in place of the word that appears, apostasia?

This may work on those you have met over the course of your life but it doesn't fly when the truth is known.

A portion of my BLOG on this subject..........

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500's — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

========================================================================================================

Its used as a a verb form here, DEPARTING from the Earth, not Departing from the Faith, so your point above is just not a valid case brother. What someone has told you are led you to believe is that whenever its about DEPARTING from the Faith it can't be about a Rapture and its only used in thus and thus manner this many times. Men sure are tricky at times. But its clearly used in verb form a number of times, and most of the times its about DEPARTING from something, as it is in this case, we DEPART from the Earth, its a verb, an ACTION. Men say all sorta things that fall short, men have AGENDAS, God just gives us His truths. 

People, for some reason, want so bad for the Church to go through the 70th week, and we are not going to be here, that is just not the case brother. 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

The subject of the first verse is primarily "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ," this is the first subject mentioned, the gathering is mentioned next and is linked to the 2nd coming. Hence both occur together.

 

The Subject is actually about why the Thessalonians should not EVER Fear being in the Day of the Lord AND that is because the Gathering HAPPENS BEFORE the Man of Sin OR the DOTL can come upon us. So in essence its about the Gathering unto the Lord who comes and calls us unto him from the Clouds above, BEFORE the Wrath of God starts. Jesus and the Church return together, reading Rev. 19 tells us that.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is not true: "It means DEPARTED from the faith and has become knows as a Rebellion". Both 'aphistemi' and 'dicessio' were applied to political ideology as far back as I can find. The terms were used to describe politicians that changed their minds in matters of State depending on the advantage to them or outside pressures; and this is from ancient times.

But it doesn't matter as 'apostasia' is the word used and has always meant revolt, defection or rebellion. 

Pretrib builds it's case almost entirely on 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4, and uses the terms 'harpazo' and 'egeiro' to explain why the gathering must happen pretrib and at no other time. So why did Paul not use these terms in 2 Thess 2 when setting the timing for the gathering? It's because he said exactly what he meant as guided by the Spirit. 

Rebellion of the church first, the revealing of the man of sin at the midpoint and only after this the Return of Jesus and the gathering; mirroring Matt 24:29-31.

This is an easy read IMHO brother, it clearly means that the Church will depart BEFORE the DOTL comes upon mankind. Else if Paul had been teaching them they WERE INDEED going to go through God's Wrath why would the Thessalonians have been fretting ? They would have expected to go through the DOTL. 

Pre Trib is an easy read, and understanding. The Church is SEEN in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened and in Rev 7 AFTER the seals are opened. We are seen in  Rev. 19, in Heaven BEFORE the Battle of Armageddon. Its not a rebellion, its a Departure, just like the word gay to mean still means happy to me. 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Oh? You have no authority to say what the Spirit led men to do in regards to scripture! I'm literally laughing at this. Self aggrandizement is just too funny to me. But it will get you trouble as well. 

 

I could care less what men think, the RCC put these passages in the word as if they were meant to be Thus saith the Lord, they were never intended by Paul to be thus saith the Lord or he wouldn't have left so much if the communications out. He was clearly just writing letters where he knew the Churches and him spoke on issues thus he would say, you remember when I was yet with you I told you these things, thus we don't get the full gist of what Paul was implying in many cases. This means Departure, you think it means Rebellion from the Faith, Paul could have easily clarified by naming what he was speaking of more precisely, if he thought his letters were going to be Canonized. He could have mentioned more precisely what it was that was RESTRAINING the Man of Sin from coming forth. When you only have one side of the conversation, and in letters we get limited instruction, it was NEVER MEANT to be thus saith the Lord, else Paul would have not have left us hanging, where Satan can twist the facts. Its meant to teach us interactions between the Leaders and the early Churches. God gave Paul the chore of reaching the Gentiles, he did that. That's what these Letters are all about, of course we can learn from them, but we can learn from letters written by 17th century Preachers also and by letters from Martin Luther.. 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not sure this can be accurate in any way when you just said we don't have the full correspondence. "IF we knew..." you said, "IT WOULD BE..." You're basing a certainty on nothing. 

 

It seems some people can figure it out, even though the Puzzle has pieces missing, and some can't quite get it. I can see the picture. I learned how to use the full word of God to make the puzzles seem full. But I would rather have the full correspondence of course.

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Whatever one believes makes no difference as it's the interpretation of the passage that causes this issue. You demand that 'apostasia' is 'harpazo' or that 'aphistemi' is the 'departing from place to go to another', and that this must come before the DOTL. But that causes a problem in the passage as this, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, (your 'departure')" must happen before this, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him".

You do see that? 

Now I see again you guys reasoning, but you have THAT DAY that is being spoken of conflated with the Second Coming. THAT DAY being spoken of is the Day of the Lord God's Wrath which is what the Thessalonians were fearing. That starts with the FIRST SEAL being opened which is the Anti-Christ going forth, which is God's Wrath, because the Seals are the Lambs Wrath, thus the DOTL.  THAT DAY is not the Second Coming brother. 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not the truth. It's a hope built on fear of what's coming. It's amazing really. You have no problem removing the blessed hope of the 100,000 that die every year in the name of Jesus in favor of saving your own skin through false doctrine, it's a good thing doctrines of men count for nothing, and throwing countless millions into the most evil time in all history, as long as it's not you and your ilk that have to endure. 

So where is the 'rapture' for the 100,000 that are martyred every year for the name of Jesus and the testimony they hold? 

Where is their early ticket out to avoid persecution and death at the hands the enemy? 

There is a caveat you are missing. Why wasn't Abraham and Noah just TAKEN OUT of this World instead of being protected in this world by God ? Because the Jews still had to birth the SEED that was to be the Redeemer Jesus, of course. And likewise the Churches mission on earth is to preach the Gospel unto all the world, THEN THE END will come. We overcome the world by our blood, but once that Mission is finished, there is NO NEED for the Church to remain on earth. So why would we remain ? Jesus to be killed by a tyrant ? The Two-witnesses come to get the Jews to repent and an ANGEL proclaims the Gospel unto the whole world. And by the way, those 100,000 that die, are going to be EXACTLY like those of us who remain until the Rapture, WE DIE ALSO, when the Spirit Man leaves the Flesh Man. Not as Martyrs, but we die never the less. Once our mission is complete, the Church is outta here. 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Totally untrue. The group that follows Jesus from heaven to earth are strateuma: an expedition, an army, a company of soldiers. NOT the Saints.

 

Read verse 8 again........8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

So she is indeed the Saints. 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

You're wrong here as well. There are only believers in Jesus and those who do not believe. There is no 'church' as you and your ecumenical brethren define it. This statement reveals insight into the pretrib lie. Fundamentally pretrib is perfect before the Lord, and neither the Jews or anyone else is and they deserve punishment, and persecution, and death as they are not perfect before the Lord.

Again, what of the 100,000 that die for Jesus every year? Are they following the Lord or not? If they are dying in His name they must be following Him. Why don't they get a rapture before they suffer?

Pretribbers are in for a rude awakening. Best get ready as none of us are going anywhere early.

 

Rev. 12:17 DESCRIBES the Remnant Church. The 144,000 are the 1/3 of the Jewish Saints who Repent {Zechariah 13:8-9}. The Jews are PROTECTED, the Gentiles who tarried must either be smart enough to make it to Petra or they will be killed for their Faith all because they TARRIED. 

 

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Amazing! No proof, "they just do". You have nothing.

Of course I have proof, the scriptures. 

How long does the Beast rule ? 42 Months. How Long is the Woman {Israel} protected ? 1260 days. How long does Satan CHASE the Woman ? 1260 days. 

The First Four Seals are Jesus ALLOWING the Anti-Christ to go forth Conquering and to Conquer. How long does he Conquer ? 42 months, its basic math. Like wise he brings Wars {takes away peace} for 42 months right ? And he brings Famine for 42 months right ? and he brings Death and Sickness for 42 Months right ? You guys see these Seals as CONSECUTIVE unto each other, they are not, they are all happening CONCURRENTLY with each other. The Martyrs are the testimony of the slain Saints. When are they slain and by who ? Over a 42 month period by the tyrant Beast. We know this from Scriptures.

Rev. 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be FULFILLED. {42 MONTHS}

Rev. 204 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So THE MARTYRS of the Great Tribulation Period are Judged AFTER Jesus returns, meaning those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 ARE NOT nor can they be the Great Tribulation {70th week} Saints. These in Rev. 20:4 ARE the Great Tribulation/70th week Saints being judged. They {70th week Saints} live and reign with Christ during the 1000 year reign [ON EARTH]. Jesus clearly tells us in Rev. 6:10 that those Martyrs must WAIT until their brothers have all been killed in LIKE MANNER as them. So those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 ARE INDEED the Church in Heaven. 

So the Martyrs are killed over a 42 month period in which the Anti-Christ RULES. So when the First 5 Seals are opened, its FUTURE EVENTS which all happen CONCURRENTLY to each other of a 42 month period of time. The 6th Seal is opened on day 1261 also, meaning there are 1260 days of God's Wrath coming to fall on Mankind. Satan and his Demons are the Stars that fall to earth here like UNTIMELY FIGS, they are cast down to earth and he thus CHASES the Woman for 1260 days !! Just like Rev. 12 describes !! 

So all 6 Seals happen at the exact same time, none are contingent on the others having been completed. They are Seals releasing EVENTS over a 42 month Period. The 7th Seal is a wee bit different in that it allows the 7 Trumps to come forth, but since the 144,000 IMHO are the Jews Fleeing Judea {Woman} and they are protected for 1260 days also, I would appear that all 7 are opened on ONE DAY, day 1261, leaving ALL EVENTS to come to pass over a 1260 day time period of events. The Trumps start the Judgments that are linear to each other. The Trumps Fires of Tress and Grasses are happening WHILE the Beast is murdering people all over the world, the Seals turn to blood WHILE he kills steals and destroys, the Three Woes happen WHILE the Beast is being a tyrant on the earth for 42 months !! 

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Ha! The subject here is the false doctrine surrounding the DOTL and when it will happen and what should precede the Day. Your idea is something advanced by the charlatan Lindsey back in the 60's.

 

You are just not hip to the facts brother. 

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

There is no weight to your 'thus' as the conclusion is not supported by either the text nor logical process. 

"Jim is a man."

"Men are mortal."

"Jim is Mortal."  Truth as both premises are true and the conclusion contains a fact from each premise. What you do is:

"The dog is black."

"Labradors are black."

"The dog is a Labrador."  Even though this contains fact it is not true as many different types of dogs are black and not all Labradors are black.

Not fearing the DOTL does not appear in the text and is a false premise ergo; your conclusion is false.

Of course it was the FEAR of the DOTL that they were fretting about. 

[rdclmn72]

Its based on the events just before the destruction of the first temple. in 621 BCE as a result of the religious reforms brought by Josiah, the last great passover was celebrated in Jerusalem. After Josiah died other kings would re-introduce pagan worship and lead the people away from God. So, you have Jeremiah talking to both groups of people, just like philidelphia and laodicea.

[Diaste]

Greetings,

On 10/12/2019 at 8:01 AM, calledoutones said:

Here is something to think about, the word apostasia is a noun, and as I mentioned before it was translated as "departure" in the first 7 english translations.

But a departure from what? This is a pretrib proof but it's quite ambiguous. In order for either apostasia or aphistemi to prove the pretrib rapture then either or both would have to carry the same idea as harpazo. They do not. 

Harpazo is an abduction, like a rescue, and taken to a safe place. Apostasia and aphistemi are actions of the withdrawal of the individual or group away from or in opposition to what they previously believed. 

And it was never departure in the first translations as in 'being taken from one place and transported to another'. Dicessio is abandoning an ideology. This was the word used in the Roman Senate when a Senator would change allegiance. The Senator would 'depart' from his previous ideology or beliefs; not leave the Senate chamber and take a long trip to unknown places.

 

 

On 10/12/2019 at 8:01 AM, calledoutones said:

 

The verb for the word "apostasia" is strongs number g868 "aphistemi", aphistemi is used in acts 12 verse 10, and the Angel "departed" from him. my point is this that strongs defines aphistemi to remove, or actively instigate to revolt, to desist or desert, draw or fall away, the angel "departed" from him, he didnt instigate a revolt or fall away!

I think you meant 'apostasia; here: "strongs defines aphistemi to remove, or actively instigate to revolt, to desist or desert, draw or fall away"

In any case, apostasia is used in 2 Thess 2:3, not aphistemi, not dicessio...apostasia. Paul didn't make a mistake here and redefining terms or replacing words to fit doctrine or dogma is forbidden practice.

On 10/12/2019 at 8:01 AM, calledoutones said:

departed is a verb in the english language, and departure is a noun in the english language, and if you look at the context and literary structure of of 2 thessalonians chapter 2 you find that paul in 2:6-8 repeats the same two events mentioned in 2:3, quoting thomas ice

Ice is way off. He's the Hal Lindsey of the day.

On 10/12/2019 at 8:01 AM, calledoutones said:

 

in his study of "The rapture in 2 thessalonians 2:3, He says; Both events are stated twice in the passage: first, "the departure" (rapture) and "the revelation of the man of sin" (verse 3), and second, the restrainer (holy spirit) "is taken out of the way" (rapture) and "the lawless one will  be revealed" (verses 7-8).

As is the case with all pretrib thought concerning 2 Thess 2:1-8 there are two raptures. Interpreting it this way means the rapture happens before the rapture happens. 

Also, the 'restrainer taken out of the way isn't the Holy Spirit, Michael, the Church or any other group or individual; what holds backs is the rebellion and the revealing and what is being held back is the coming of Jesus and the gathering of us to Him.

To wit:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come[meaning the Day of Christ and the gathering] until the rebellion occurs[only after the rebellion] and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.[and only after the man of sin is revealed]"

And that same Day of the Lord is when the gathering occurs, they happen together, and neither can happen before the rebellion and the revealing.

" 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. "

This is still in the context of the coming of Jesus Christ. What is being held back is the revealing of Jesus in all His Godly glory; not the beast, man of sin, or son of perdition. 

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. "

Do a deep study on "but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. " You will find this quite revealing. This part of the sentence actually says, "Just hold on until the emergence on the world stage in the middle" 

 

On 10/12/2019 at 8:01 AM, calledoutones said:

 

If "the departure" is some form of revolt (my word) then the parallelism is broken. Also I want to point out that if we read 2 thess 2 in context we find that the thessalonians were going through tribulations as mentioned in 2 thess 1:4, so paul writes to the not to be soon shaken in mind, or troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us that the day of christ had come! 2 thess 2:2, they thought that they had missed the rapture because of tribulation, and paul comforts them by telling them not to worry about it because the departure will come "first". makes perfect sense to me. comment please! shalom

Don't allow literary devices to overshadow normal everyday understanding and context. 

Apostasia is clearly a rebellion and not harpazo. The Thessalonians were not afraid of the tribulation, they feared they were in the day of Lord and were not taken out. Notice how Paul mentions the Day of the Lord but say nothing about great tribulation, or otherwise. 

This is just another learned, pretrib, twisting of the truth of the prophecy.

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Diaste

[bloom]

Apostacy is the preaching of a pre-trib rapture, satan's greatest lie. Those teaching it are tools of the devil.

[kwikphilly]

32 minutes ago, bloom said:

Apostacy is the preaching of a pre-trib rapture, satan's greatest lie. Those teaching it are tools of the devil.

Blessings to you

I have to ask why you think this nonSalvational issue would make one an apostate?Also,wouldn't you consider Satan convincing others that there are many ways to Heaven a lie with the greatest ramifications?

So what are the consequences for believing a pre- trib rapture?All I can see is " oops,thank God I have Jesus because this sure is a surprise!"

I'm not poking fun ,it's justs a controversial subject and imo it shouldn't be- I don't believe a pre - trib rapture,Scripture does not support that as I see it but I'd sure like to be wrong if I am living at the Appointed Time!😀

In His Love,Kwik

[farouk]

It seems to me that if one looks at John 14.3, 1 Cor. 11.26 & 1 Thess. 4.16-18 from the standpoint of, Who? as well as, What? then it clarifies that it's the church involved rather than any other entity.

[farouk]

11 hours ago, bloom said:

Apostacy is the preaching of a pre-trib rapture, satan's greatest lie. Those teaching it are tools of the devil.

John 14.3; 1 Corinthians 11.26; 1 Thessalonians 4.16-18

[bloom]

10 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings to you

I have to ask why you think this nonSalvational issue would make one an apostate?Also,wouldn't you consider Satan convincing others that there are many ways to Heaven a lie with the greatest ramifications?

So what are the consequences for believing a pre- trib rapture?All I can see is " oops,thank God I have Jesus because this sure is a surprise!"

I'm not poking fun ,it's justs a controversial subject and imo it shouldn't be- I don't believe a pre - trib rapture,Scripture does not support that as I see it but I'd sure like to be wrong if I am living at the Appointed Time!😀

In His Love,Kwik

By your own admission it is not to be found in the text, therefore it is not biblical truth and teaching it to others is a falsehood. Some would call that a sin. Believing in a rapture would be misleading yourself from overcoming in the " Appointed Time". If you can't stand a little tribulation what good would you be to YHVH in the "Appointed Time". No guts no glory.