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The case against freewill.


Yeshua153

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                               Freewill is defined, as a noun, in the dictionary as ' the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. ' 

                                 That is not how the bible defines it, it is an adjective, & is defined ' (especially of a donation) voluntaryfree-will offerings. '

                                The bible verses citing these are; Lev 22v18, 21, 23, 38, Num 15v3, 29v39, Deut 12v6, 17, 16v10, 23v23, 2Chr 31v14, Ezra 1v4, 3v5, 7v13, 16, 8v28 & Ps 119v108.

                                The only verse that is not free-will offerings is Ezra 7v13 ' I issue a decree that all those of the people of Israel & the priests & Levites in my realm who volunteer to go up to Jerusalem, may go with you. '

                                 The world's definition says you can act without constraint (or without God's say so), & while we can all choose what we do, what we CANNOT do, is choose God, as it is God who chooses His elect family, which I will confirm with scripture.

                                Num  16v5 '  and he spoke to Korah and all his company, saying, “Tomorrow morning the Lord will show who is His and who is holy,[b] and will cause him to come near to Him. That one whom He chooses He will cause to come near to Him. '

                         Num 24v13 ‘If Balak were to give me his house full of silver and gold, I could not go beyond the word of the Lord, to do good or bad of my own will. What the Lord says, that I must speak’?

                         Job 14v5 ' Since his days are determined,
The number of his months is with You;
You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass. '

                         Ps33v10  ' The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. '

                         Ps 115v3 ' But our God is in heaven;
He does whatever He pleases. '

                         Ecc 3v14 ' I know that whatever God does,
It shall be forever.
Nothing can be added to it,
And nothing taken from it.
God does it, that men should fear before Him. '  That is a great verse!

                         Dan 4v35 ' All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing;
He does according to His will in the army of heaven
And among the inhabitants of the earth.
No one can restrain His hand
Or say to Him, “What have You done? '  So no one (with their freewill!) can restrain God's hand!

                        New testament time, starting with one you should all know. 

                       Mat 6v10 ' our kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven. '

                       Jn1v13 ' who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. '

                       Jn 5v30 '  I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. '

                       Jn 17v9 ' I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. '

                       Acts 13v48 ' Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. '  A convincing verse indeed.

                      Rom 8v28 ' And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. '  Not called, but 'the called' (God's elect)

                      Rom 9v18 ' Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. '  Say no more!

                      Lastly, 2Pet2v10 sums up what every human has, self-will.  ' and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. '

                      As God's elect also have self-will, that needs God's forgiveness daily, summed up, famously by Paul in Rom 7v19-20 '  For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.  Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. '

                         

                         

 

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7 hours ago, Yeshua153 said:

The world's definition says you can act without constraint (or without God's say so), & while we can all choose what we do, what we CANNOT do, is choose God, as it is God who chooses His elect family, which I will confirm with scripture.

I may very well be misunderstanding what you are saying.  It appears to me that you are thinking that people who believe in "free-will" believe that there are no rules against specific behaviors, such as murder.

There may be people that believe that.

But in the theological realm, what is meant by "free-will" is that the individual has the ability to choose to follow God or not.  It gets more nuanced than that (as does everything with human reasoning).

May God bless us as we seek to understand him.  May our knowing him lead to greater understanding and our understanding lead to deeper knowing.

Edited by lftc
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We all have free will. Born again Christians must choose what is good. How can they do that? With the help of the Holy Spirit. 

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This extract is from the Sovereignty of God by A.W Pink

The Sovereignty of the God of Scripture is absolute, irresistible, infinite. When we say that God is Sovereign we affirm His right to govern the universe which He has made for His own glory, just as He pleases. We affirm that His right is the right of the Potter over the clay, i. e., that He may mold that clay into whatsoever form He chooses, fashioning out of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. We affirm that He is under no rule or law outside of His own will and nature, that God is a law unto Himself, and that He is under no obligation to give an account of His matters to any.

Sovereignty characterizes the whole Being of God. He is Sovereign in all His attributes. He is Sovereign in the exercise of His power. His power is exercised as He wills, when He wills, where He wills. This fact is evidenced on every page of Scripture. For a long season that power appears to be dormant, and then it is put forth in irresistible might. Pharaoh dared to hinder Israel from going forth to worship Jehovah in the wilderness-what happened? God exercised His power, His people were delivered and their cruel task-masters slain. But a little later, the Amalekites dared to attack these same Israelites in the wilderness, and what happened? Did God put forth His power on this occasion and display His hand as He did at the Red Sea? Were these enemies of His people promptly overthrown and destroyed? No, on the contrary, the Lord swore that He would "have war with Amalek from generation to generation" (Exo. 17:16). Again, when Israel entered the land of Canaan, God's power was signally displayed. The city of Jericho barred their progress-what happened? Israel did not draw a bow nor strike a blow: the Lord stretched forth His hand and the walls fell down flat. But the miracle was never repeated! No other city fell after this manner. Every other city had to be captured by the sword!

Many other instances might be adduced illustrating the Sovereign exercise of God's power. Take one other example. God put forth His power and David was delivered from Goliath, the giant; the mouths of the lions were closed and Daniel escaped unhurt; the three Hebrew children were cast into the burning fiery furnace and came forth unharmed and unscorched. But God's power did not always interpose for the deliverance of His people, for we read: "And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword; they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented" (Heb. 11:36, 37). But why? Why were not these men of faith delivered like the others? Or, why were not the others suffered to be killed like these? Why should God's power interpose and rescue some and not the others? Why allow Stephen to be stoned to death, and then deliver Peter from prison?

God is Sovereign in the delegation of His power to others. Why did God endow Methuselah with a vitality which enabled him to outlive all his contemporaries? Why did God impart to Samson a physical strength which no other human has ever possessed? Again; it is written, "But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is He that giveth thee power to get wealth" (Deut. 8:18), but God does not bestow this power on all alike. Why not? Why has He given such power to men like Morgan, Carnegie, Rockefeller? The answer to all of these questions is, Because God is Sovereign, and being Sovereign He does as He pleases.

God is Sovereign in the exercise of His mercy. Necessarily so, for mercy is directed by the will of Him that showeth mercy. Mercy is not a right to which man is entitled. Mercy is that adorable attribute of God by which He pities and relieves the wretched. But under the righteous government of God no one is wretched who does not deserve to be so. The objects of mercy, then, are those who are miserable, and all misery is the result of sin, hence the miserable are deserving of punishment not mercy. To speak of deserving mercy is a contradiction of terms.

So if we had freewill, we would be sovereign, & not God, which would be rather big-headed of us!

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choose life, that life is in His Son, it highlights what choose life is, to choose God and not man.

 

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

 

man chooses man, God chooses to not choose man, as that is a very useless choice.

 

Who understands what ?

 

1 Corinthians 2:But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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11 hours ago, Adam777 said:

 

man chooses man, God chooses to not choose man, as that is a very useless choice.

 

 

It seems you are going against Yeshua's own words in Jn 15v16 

 

“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”

 

 

Edited by Yeshua153
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CHOSEN US IN HIM..(CHOSEN US IN CHRIST..CHOSEN CHRIST NOT MAN)
 
I have exalted one chosen out of the people
 
He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
 
Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
 
my covenant shall stand fast with him.
 
His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
 
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
 
that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain
 
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath CHOSEN US IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 
Psalm 89:19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
 
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
 
 
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To go back to Paul's comments in Rom 7v15-20;

 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

This is a clear battle of the outer man (flesh,self), & the inner man (Holy Spirit), which only true believers, chosen by God, has.

We all have choices, or you could say wants. There are 2 wants all of us have, what you want, & wants that are forced on you. These are all predetermined. Try not wanting, something  you want! or vice-versa. We are all drawn to hang out, or fall for somebody, or do mad things, but nothing is freewill. 

You had no choice in your parents, or your birth, nor any choice being born again (anothen-from above).

We all have struggles that Paul had. I would say what we want & choose comes from self (outer man), & what is forced want, comes from the inner man, that is not carnal, but spiritual, & is learned behaviour, over a lifetime.

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