Will pregnancy and toddlers/children vanish when Rapture happens ?

[Last Daze]

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”  In fact, DID John write of things hereafter? You know He did. Please note carefully: if John had written two or three future events, then filled the rest of the book up with recipes for manna, God would not have gone against this phrase. Again, it does not say John will write ONLY of things future. Many people seem to read in an "only" as if John could not include past events. 

In truth, this book includes things John saw, things which were in John's day, and certainly things to come. In other words, there is nothing here to prevent God or john from including some history.  Nice try.

You didn't answer the question.  Again, how long did "the things which are" last?  Those things did exist.  Tell me all you can about what Jesus meant when He said "the things which are."  What did Jesus mean in Rev 1:19 when He told John to write "the things which are?"  What is that a reference to?  No tap dancing please.  Just a straight up answer will be fine.

[iamlamad]

23 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

You didn't answer the question.  Again, how long did "the things which are" last?  Those things did exist.  Tell me all you can about what Jesus meant when He said "the things which are."  What did Jesus mean in Rev 1:19 when He told John to write "the things which are?"  What is that a reference to?  No tap dancing please.  Just a straight up answer will be fine.

Perhaps "things which are" referred to things in John's day, or perhaps they referred to things right at that moment. Is there a way of knowing exactly?  It has to refer to things BEFORE 'what comes after these things." The first thing I find that is future in what John wrote is the 6th seal - the start of judgment.  One thing that existed in John's day was the seven churches. Over time they disappeared.  I tend to think Jesus was not referring to the entire church age.  I guess the vision that turned into the book was things that "are" in John's day.

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Matt 24:30-31 is the same set of events as Rev 6:12-17,  Why do you say this? I could not disagree more. One is before the 70th week while one is AFTER the 70th week. Please expand on this.

"

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."

"And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind."..."And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”"

Matt 24: "The sun will be darkened,"

Rev 6:    "the sun became black"

Matt 24: "the stars will fall from the sky,"

Rev 6:    "and the stars of the sky fell to the earth"

Matt 24: "the moon will not give its light"

Rev 6:    "the whole moon turned blood red"

Matt 24: "all the tribes of the earth will mourn"

Rev 6:    "“Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”" Their lamentation fulfilling Matt 24:30, "...all the tribes of the earth will mourn..."

So unless you are saying this happen twice then Matt 24:30-31 and Rev 6:12-17 depict the same event occurring after the midpoint of the week and after GT.

It's the same in Joel 2:10, "The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:" Which comes after...[I'm just going to highlight the main points for brevity.]

Joel 1

The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel.

Hear this, you old men, and give ear, all you inhabitants of the land. Has this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?

For a nation is come up on my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he has the cheek teeth of a great lion.

 

[Luke mentions Israel surrounded by armies]

The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD's ministers, mourn.

[This occurs at the midpoint and has already happened]

The field is wasted, the land mourns; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languishes.

[This is the first trump, "Then the first angel sounded his trumpet...A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass."]

Be you ashamed, O you farmers; howl, O you vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.

[This is the first trump again. Joel makes it very clear the first trump has occurred either in time with the A of D or shortly after, and before the Wrath of the Almighty comes]

 

The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languishes; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.

[Can't get away from the first trump and it's effects.]

Gird yourselves, and lament, you priests: howl, you ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, you ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withheld from the house of your God.

[The meat and drink offering is cut off. This is the midpoint again and it has already occurred as has the 1st trump.]

Sanctify you a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry to the LORD,

Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

[The day of the Lord in imminent but has not yet begun.]

Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yes, joy and gladness from the house of our God?

[Again it's clear the A of D is past.]

How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yes, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

O LORD, to you will I cry: for the fire has devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame has burned all the trees of the field.

The beasts of the field cry also to you: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire has devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

[This is the first trump as well as the 3rd trump. "Then the first angel sounded his trumpet... A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass." Then the third angel sounded his trumpet...A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters. Only one example where a river is dried up is at the sixth bowl but that's specific where Joel is not. And 'dried up' here is more like 'strength is taken' from what I can tell; there is still waters but they are no longer life giving in effect rendering them 'dry' of life.]

All this contradicts the idea that the 6th seal begins the week. Joel is telling us the midpoint is passed, the 1st trump has sounded and the effects are brutal and the day of the Lord is yet to commence. This aligns with the outline of Matt 24 and helps us to set the order of things in Revelation. So then by this point in the end of the age the A of D has occurred and three trumps have sounded.  This also fits well with the gathering at the 7th trump as Joel tells us the day of the Lord has not occurred but 3 trumps have sounded with 3 more on the way. This would then arrange these occurrences at the 5th seal as GT and the death of the martyrs occurs after the A of D. By Joel's account we are between the 5th and 6th seal where at least 3 trumps have been heard.

 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The seals open and by the time of the fifth seal 6 trumps have sounded  How on earth are you going to have ANY trump sound  - written INSIDE the book - until all 7 seals are opened? It is impossible. You overlook verses such as this:

Rev. 8:1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. ² And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. 

I see you defend the nonexistence of the word 'only' in reference to 'the things which are'. I agree with you. We should be this precise. We also need to apply this to the above.

The above is not necessarily chronological. The text says, "And I saw..." This is not saying one follows the other but only relates what was observed. 

Compare:

 

And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, 

Then the second angel sounded his trumpet,

Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, 

Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, 

Clearly this is chronological as the text says 'Then...', meaning next and is directly connected to the actions of sounding trumps. This does not appear in Rev 8:1

I agree that the 7th seal is followed by John seeing the seven angels with seven trumps. What is not in the text is 'when'. It's been assumed bowls follow trumps which follow seals but that is not the case; and even if it was it cannot be proven from Rev 8:1.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Also, the 6th seal and the 7th trump are connected in time and space.  You will have to prove this with scripture, but I don't think you can.  

For the great day of his wrath is come

and thy wrath is come

"is come" erchomai  (Strong's)

 

Speech: Verb  Tense: Second Aorist  Voice: Active  Mood: Indicative

Definition of "Second Aorist"
Is identical in meaning and translation to the normal or "first" aorist tense.

Aorist tense: Definition of "Aorist"
Is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense...  (Strong's)

Another Greek Scholar wrote "not inflected to show tense."

In other words, at the 6th seal, we know that wrath has begun then just by the mention of the word wrath.  In chapter 11, wrath has been ongoing so the wrath there (and thy wrath is come) is simply showing us His wrath is present at that time. And of course it is, because it started previously and is continuing. 

The 'aorist' tense, or non-tense is nonsense. It's never defined properly in eschatological circles as is used as 'sleeve card' as you are doing here. It's the same language in both instances; 'orge erchomai'.

You can't define the same language differently by abusing the definitions. I get it doesn't fit your ideas but when facts are presented you change the idea, not the fact. Since the aorist tense testifies to the fact of the action and has no bearing on time, we can only say it's happened at the point where the text says. If it's not inflected to show tense then wrath 'is' at the 7th trump just as it 'is' at the 6th seal. In other words, right at this moment; which can only be the case as you said, " without regard for past, present, or future time.". It's not ongoing at the 7th trump if it's not ongoing at the 6th seal since the language in both cases is exactly the same.

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For those that insist the first seal represents the Antichrist Beast of Rev. 13: 

Why does John not get to the Beast until chapter 13, and you imagine he is in chapter 6?

Why does the catch-all phrase at the 4th seal include the Red, the Black and the Pale but leave out the White?

Since these three, the Red, the Black and the Pale are limited to one fourth of the earth, if it is the Antichrist leading them then that would also limit the Antichrist to one fourth the earth, but we have other scriptures showing us his influence is world-wide. 

In the end, the first seal as Antichrist simply does not fit.

You can't just make it up as you go. There is no justification to require 'them' to include the black and red horse when it's obvious from the text:

"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given to them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

'them' includes "Death and Hell" only. If you are going to engage in such a wide scope for a pronoun what's to stop you from including the white horse? Hmmm? How does it leave out the white horse when you insist 'them' must be the two previous equines? Because it doesn't fit your personal ideas. 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Maybe you need to read that again: It was 95 AD when Jesus called John up, but John saw this heaven opened INSIDE the vision. And the first thing John saw after that was the throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father. Like you said: a flashback.  Maybe you should first ask the question: WHEN did the vision begin? I submit when John first saw Jesus it was in vision form. And from that time on, through many chapters, it was all in a vision. 

OF COURSE it washes. God is telling us that ONLY A MAN could qualify to open the seals. Further, it had to be a man who could prevail over death and rise out of the grave by His own power. You do remember that God BECAME MAN?  The point God was making (and still is making) is that JESUS HIMSELF was not qualified to take the book and open the seals UNTIL AFTER He rose from the dead. 

⁴ So I wept much, because no one was found worthy...

The word "found" tells us the angel was looking...ie...a search. The angel was sent to search for a man worthy to open the seals. This is probably nit picking: the point is, at one point in time Jesus was NOT worthy, but later He BECAME worthy be prevailing over death.

John tells us this "search" included all of heaven, all of earth, and even under the earth.

Your consistency is that of water. You rightly abstain from adding the idea 'only' to 'the things which are' in another conversation; but liberally apply the idea of 'only' when it suits your purposes.

"God is telling us that ONLY A MAN could qualify to open the seals." Where is that idea related in the relevant text?

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? Here? Do we have the concept 'only a man could qualify'?

 3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. Here? All I see is no man was able to open the book nor look at it. 

 4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. Here? Again, no man was worthy. The text screams about the unworthiness of mankind.

The Lamb is Worthy

5And one of the elders said to me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 

Here we go. The worthy one. Not a man.

Isaiah 9:6 

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 8:58

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.

Hebrews 1:8 

But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Colossians 2:9 

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Revelation 1:17-18 

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

1 John 4:2 

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

Jesus is God. Not a man.

He did not become man. He became God in a body. The fullness of deity. Pre-existent. God in the flesh and worthy from before everlasting to everlasting.

You are suspect.

 

 

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

First off, you are missing that the "taking peace" from the earth is limited to only 1/4 of the earth. Since the gospel began in Jerusalem, it seems right that this 1/4 the earth would be centered on Jerusalem; therefore probably Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.

Seal 3 does not cause famine.  Since it takes a whole days wages just to buy food for the family, and that only the cheapest food available, it certainly speaks of hard times. And for those with no wages, it certainly speaks of hunger. If all I could eat would be barley, I would very soon hunger after something else!

for such world wide scarcity.   Sorry, not world wide: it is limited to 1/4 the earth.

The 4th seal doesn't seem to have any bearing on the previous 2  You are missing the link; John ties 2-4 together:

Ask yourself: WHO is the "them?

And ^[f]power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

 

Interestingly the population of adherents to the Muslim faith is just about 1/4 of the population of earth.   Brilliant deduction!  I agree.

is the 5th seal also limited regionally? I bet it isn't.  I don't see John linking it to the previous 3 seals. We agree.

must be "killed as they [were]"  I puzzled over that and bugged God about it for weeks, perhaps months. Common sense told me that different martyrs were put to death in different manners, some beheaded, some crucified, some fed to wild animals, etc - so I knew that was not the meaning. I finally understood: Killed "as they were" meant killed as church age saints. All these are church age martyrs because John has not yet arrived at the time judgment begins. The church age is the age of grace; judgment is not going to start in a big way until the age of grace is over.  We see grace over and judgment starting with the 6th seal. Someone martyred after the abomination in chapter 11 would be a different class: 70th week martyrs. They are seen in chapter 15.  You are right: God know the final number and will be looking for that.

If someone has turned to God during the days of GT and are then caught - would they know God's schedule: that the Beast would rule only for 42 months?  It is a good question. My guess is, news travels fast.  

I think you know that these seals, 2 through 4, parallel what Jesus said in the Olivet discourse: earthquakes, wars, pestilences, etc.  And with these Jesus added, "the end is not yet..." In other words, Jesus is associating these things with the church age, not with the end.

Matt 24:30-31 is the same set of events as Rev 6:12-17,  Why do you say this? I could not disagree more. One is before the 70th week while one is AFTER the 70th week. Please expand on this. 

More than half the week is over by the time of the 6th seal.  Again, please expand on this and explain how you come to this conclusion. I think it is error and shows a lack of understanding of John's narrative.  I see the week starting with the first trumpet.

Also, the 6th seal and the 7th trump are connected in time and space.  You will have to prove this with scripture, but I don't think you can.  

For the great day of his wrath is come

and thy wrath is come

"is come" erchomai  (Strong's)

 

Speech: Verb  Tense: Second Aorist  Voice: Active  Mood: Indicative

Definition of "Second Aorist"
Is identical in meaning and translation to the normal or "first" aorist tense.

Aorist tense: Definition of "Aorist"
Is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense...  (Strong's)

Another Greek Scholar wrote "not inflected to show tense."

In other words, at the 6th seal, we know that wrath has begun then just by the mention of the word wrath.  In chapter 11, wrath has been ongoing so the wrath there (and thy wrath is come) is simply showing us His wrath is present at that time. And of course it is, because it started previously and is continuing. 

Unless you are saying wrath comes twice.  No, His wrath begins and continues on for the entire week. It does not start and stop. In chapter 11 John is just confirming that wrath is present at that time in his narrative.

It would be extremely poor exegesis to imagine the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet are at the same time just for John's use of an Aorist tense verb! The truth is, if we follow John's narrative and determine not to add to it or take away from it, the 6th seal comes before the 70th week has begun, while the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint - that very moment the man of sin commits the abomination. 

It's more plausible to stay with the arrangement of scripture.   I agree. Wrath begins at the 6th seal, before the week begins, and continues on through the entire week, until the 7th vial that ends the week. I think Jesus has wrath when He descends.

The seals are the overview   No, the seals are sealing the book, nothing more, nothing less. Once a seal is opened, it is over and forgotten. What many MISS: when the 7th seal is opened, the BOOK is opened, and the trumpets are what is written inside the book.

The seals open and by the time of the fifth seal 6 trumps have sounded  How on earth are you going to have ANY trump sound  - written INSIDE the book - until all 7 seals are opened? It is impossible. You overlook verses such as this:

Rev. 8:1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. ² And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. 

The book that reveals the trumpet judgments cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened FIRST. This is John's chronology.

I disagree with your timing: I am going to stick with John's timing.

Since you literally deny the deity of Christ in opposition to the scripture nothing you say is to be believed. Can't believe they allow this kind of blasphemy on this site.

[other one]

On 10/15/2019 at 1:23 AM, R. Hartono said:

I have read some claimed testimonies by the christians who claimed to hv rcvd vision about how the pregnancy and children/toddlers suddenly vanished after the rapture takes place.

They may say so but does God really care for the babies and children of unGodly parents ?

Luke 23:28 But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.

Matt 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
 

Did God save the children of unGodly people when the Noah Flood destroyed the whole world ? But the children of Noah only ?

Did God care to save the children of unGodly parents in Sodom and Gomorra ? But the children of Lot ?

 

I don't think we can compare the second coming to anything that has happened in thepast.   I'm kind of late in getting into this thread but here I am anyway.

I don't think anyone will disappear, but will be transformed into new bodies.....   and our old bodies will just fall to the way side.

Quote

Luke 17:33-37
"Whoever seeks to keep his life shall lose it, and whoever loses his life shall preserve it. 34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two men in one bed; one will be taken, and the other will be left. 35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken, and the other will be left. 36 ["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]  37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered." 
NASB

if we kept the old bodies I don't think the vultures would be gathered....     it will also be very bad for those who are with child for they will give birth to a stillborn and mothers who are still breast feeding will be terrible….
 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Since you literally deny the deity of Christ in opposition to the scripture nothing you say is to be believed. Can't believe they allow this kind of blasphemy on this site.

Please explain this line of thinking...