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Will pregnancy and toddlers/children vanish when Rapture happens ?


R. Hartono

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4 hours ago, missmuffet said:

It is obvious from this that none of the seals have been opened yet.

The first seal. The first seal introduces the Antichrist (Revelation 6:1–2). From the biblical description, we gather several details: he rides a white horse, which speaks of peace; at the beginning of the tribulation, the Antichrist will come under the pretense of bringing peace to the world (cf. Daniel 9:27). He is given a crown, which indicates that the Antichrist will exercise great authority (cf. Daniel 7:24–25). He holds a bow, which shows his true intentions, and he advances “as a conqueror bent on conquest” (Revelation 6:2).

The second seal. When the Lamb opens the second seal, great warfare breaks out on the earth (Revelation 6:3–4). This is symbolized by a rider with a large sword on a fiery red horse.

The third seal. The breaking of the third of the seven seals causes famine (Revelation 6:5–6). The rider that John sees is riding a black horse and “holding a pair of scales in his hand.” Then John hears a declaration that people will have to work all day to earn just a little food.

The fourth seal. The fourth seal is opened, and John sees a pale horse. “Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him” (Revelation 6:7–8).


The fifth seal. The scroll’s fifth seal reveals those who will be martyred for their faith in Christ during the tribulation (Revelation 6:9–11; cf. Matthew 24:9). The souls of these martyrs are pictured as dwelling under the altar in heaven. God hears their cries for justice, and He gives each of them a white robe. The martyrs are told to wait “until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.” God promises to avenge them, but the time was not yet (cf. Romans 12:19).

The sixth seal. When the Lamb of God opens the sixth seal, a devastating earthquake occurs, causing massive upheaval and terrible devastation—along with unusual astronomical phenomena: the sun turns black, and the moon turns blood-red, and “the heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place” (Revelation 6:12–14). Survivors of the sixth seal, regardless of their social position, take refuge in caves and cry out to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (verses 16–17).

After the opening of the sixth of the seven seals is an interlude in the book of Revelation. John describes the 144,000 Jews who will be protected during the tribulation (Revelation 7:1–8). Then, in heaven, he sees “a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb” (verse 9). These people wear white robes, hold palm branches, and shout:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb” (verse 10).
John is told who this white-clad multitude is: “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14). They are given the promise that
“‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’
nor any scorching heat. . . .
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes’ (verses 16–17; cf. Isaiah 25:849:10).

The seventh seal. When the Lamb opens the seventh seal, “there was silence in heaven for about half an hour” (Revelation 8:1). The judgments that lead up to the close of the tribulation are now visible in the scroll and are so severe that a solemn silence falls upon all of heaven. The seventh seal obviously introduces the next series of judgments, for John immediately sees seven angels who are handed seven trumpets ready to sound (verse 2). An eighth angel takes a censer and burns “much incense” in it, representing the prayers of God’s people (verses 3–4). The angel then took the same censer, “filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake” (verse 5).

https://www.gotquestions.org/seven-seals-Revelation.html

The first seal. The first seal introduces the Antichrist (Revelation 6:1–2). WRONG! You are pulling the first seal out of its first century context. 

Rev.5:

 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.

So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open [a]and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and [b]to loose its seven seals.”

And I looked, [c]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

 

Notice first that John watched as "no man was found" during this search for one worthy.  If we read ahead, we find that Jesus was found in another search after time had passed. The question we must ask then is why "no man (including Jesus) was found in the first search?  This takes a mind that has wisdom:  WHY was there a time when Jesus was NOT worthy to take the book and open the seals? This is what John is telling us: there WAS a time when NO MAN (on earth, in heaven or in hell)  was worthy  to take the book and open the seals. The answer is simple: it shows TIMING: at the first search, Jesus was still under the earth (He was there for three days and nights). In other words, He had not yet risen from the dead. Then, after TIME PASSED, and another search was made, Jesus was found. This shows us TIMING: Jesus had just risen from the dead. AGain, God is showing us TIMING. 

Then notice what John saw (it is in a vision he is seeing these things): suddenly Jesus showed up in the throne room as a lamb having been slain. We know from the gospels that shortly after Jesus rose from the dead, He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. Then, it is obvious, as soon as He sent Mary away, He ascended back into the throne room - and John, in this vision - saw that moment in time as seen in verses 6 above.  

Notice next, as soon as Jesus appeared in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. Again from other scriptures we know this to be truth: as soon as Jesus ascended He sent the Holy Spirit down, so He was on earth for the day of Pentecost. Notice next what Jesus did: the FIRST thing He did was get the book from the FAther.

This is the CONTEXT of the first seal. It shows us TIMING: around 32 AD. Therefore, ANY theory of the first seal must fit this timing. Yours obviously does not. 

he rides a white horse, which speaks of peace  Since you missed the context and was 2000 years off on what the first seal represents, every other point will be wrong. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and 16 times NOT for peace but for righteousness. How could you are ANYONE think that John would use white 16 times for righteousness and once for something evil?

at the beginning of the tribulation, the Antichrist will come  This may well be true, but John is at the beginning of the church age, not the beginning of the 70th week. You are 2000 years off, because you pulled this first seal out of its context. 

He is given a crown, which indicates that the Antichrist will exercise great authority   Wrong again. The first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. It is the church that receives a victor's crown. And this crown represents ULTIMATE victory, which does not fit the antichrist at all. 

he advances “as a conqueror bent on conquest”  Sorry, but it is the church that goes forth  conquering (overcoming) and to conquer and will end up with victory. The beast, on the other hand, will end up thrown into the lake of fire.  I do understand, the Antichrist Beast WILL conquer: Daniel tells us he will conquer three kings or nations. But in the first seal John is in the early church age.  We know that as soon as Jesus ascended, and all authority was given to Him, He gave order to the church to GO....go where? To take the gospel to the nations. However, SATAN is the god of the nations of the world. He was not just going to step aside and allow the gospel to enter his kingdoms! NO! Therefore the church had to OVERCOME the principalities and powers controlling the nations. Again, you are 2000 years off. 

The second seal. When the Lamb opens the second seal, great warfare breaks out on the earth  You are not far off here in meaning, (just 2000 years off in timing) but this warfare is LIMITED to one fourth of the earth: that fourth centered on Jerusalem where the gospel began. And it is for the duration of the church age: TWO world wars have started in this one fourth of the earth, and a third is sure to begin soon. I found a list once of all the wars in Europe iin the first 1000 years (AD 1 to AD 1000) and discovered there was hardly any period of time without a war going on somewhere.  There were also MUCH waring going on in Africa between tribes - also in that one fourth of the earth. 

The third seal. The breaking of the third of the seven seals causes famine  Again you are right on here, except 2000 years off. Famines have been rampant in Africa for centuries.  Even Europe has had famines. 

The result of this fourth seal is that one fourth of the earth’s population are killed “by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.”  Sorry, but you have TOTALLY missed what John wrote here. I suggest you read this over and over and over with no preconceptions. John is not telling us how many people are killed! He is telling us that these three, the Red horse and rider, the Black horse and rider, and the Pale horse and rider are LIMITED in their theater of operation to one fourth of the earth.  We don't know how many were killed or died due to war and famine and pestilence. 

Where did the black plague hit twice - killing about one third of the people each time? Europe! Remember, "ashes ashes we all fall down." Where has the Aids epidemic struck with so many dying? Africa! Again, in that one fourth these riders are allowed to operate.  Notice also that the first horse and rider are NOT INCLUDED in this group that is limited to one fourth. 


The scroll’s fifth seal reveals those who will be martyred for their faith in Christ during the tribulation  Again you are 2000 years off. John is at the beginning of the church age, you are 2000 years later. Stop and think for a moment: any martyr of the 70th week would KNOW they have only to wait out the week. On the other hand, take Stephen: killed at the beginning of the church age: he would have had NO IDEA how long it would be before judgment would come. That is why they asked. The church age it seems will be around 2000 years long. And martyrs are STILL BEING ADDED. (John has not yet arrived at the 70th week in his narrative.) Judgment is not going to come until the full number of church age martyrs is killed. 

The sixth seal.   Here we are both thinking future:  The 6th seal will be the start of judgment and the start of the Day of the Lord. But the rapture of the church will come a moment before the 6th seal. This great earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction." The earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. Those who are alive and are in Christ may well feel the ground begin to shake as they are caught up.

After the opening of the sixth of the seven seals is an interlude in the book of Revelation. John describes the 144,000 Jews who will be protected during the tribulation (Revelation 7:1–8 How astute of you! You have proven that the "tribulation" is FUTURE not past (as in the first seals). Good job!  Suppose you are watching a play with several "acts" and curtains that close between acts: what happens behind the curtains after it closes? They are rearranging the set to fit the next act.  This is exactly what John is doing in chapter 7. You see, the 7th seal officially starts the 70th week. In the mind of God, TWO EVENTS must happen before the 7th seal can start the 70th week: the church MUST BE seen in heaven, and the 144,000 MUST be sealed for their protection. Once God accomplishes these two things, then the 70th week can begin. And it will - with the 7th seal opening. 

The judgments that lead up to the close of the tribulation are now visible in the scroll  How nice of you to mention the scroll. It plays a HUGE part of John's narrative. This scroll was so important, God wanted to introduce it to John in the vision. But God wanted to start while the book (scroll) was still in the hand of the Father. Therefore God had to show the readers that He was backing up in time - so the readers would recognize that Jesus took this book as soon as He ascended. To accomplish this, God showed John (In the vision) a throne room with Jesus missing, a thone room while the Holy Spirit was still there, and a search for one worthy to take the book that ended in failure. Then God showed John the passing of time when Jesus was found worthy to take the book, and then as more time passed, Jesus ascending to the throne room and sending the Holy Spirit down.  

I am convinced that the contents of the book (what was written INSIDE) is the 70th week of Daniel. The scroll or book is opened as soon as the 7th and final seal is opened, so the trumpet judgements are the first thing to be read when the book  is opened. 

Edited by iamlamad
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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The first seal. The first seal introduces the Antichrist (Revelation 6:1–2). WRONG! You are pulling the first seal out of its first century context. 

Rev.5:

 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.

So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open [a]and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and [b]to loose its seven seals.”

And I looked, [c]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

 

Notice first that John watched as "no man was found" during this search for one worthy.  If we read ahead, we find that Jesus was found in another search after time had passed. The question we must ask then is why "no man (including Jesus) was found in the first search?  This takes a mind that has wisdom:  WHY was there a time when Jesus was NOT worthy to take the book and open the seals? This is what John is telling us: there WAS a time when NO MAN (on earth, in heaven or in hell)  was worthy  to take the book and open the seals. The answer is simple: it shows TIMING: at the first search, Jesus was still under the earth (He was there for three days and nights). In other words, He had not yet risen from the dead. Then, after TIME PASSED, and another search was made, Jesus was found. This shows us TIMING: Jesus had just risen from the dead. AGain, God is showing us TIMING. 

Then notice what John saw (it is in a vision he is seeing these things): suddenly Jesus showed up in the throne room as a lamb having been slain. We know from the gospels that shortly after Jesus rose from the dead, He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. Then, it is obvious, as soon as He sent Mary away, He ascended back into the throne room - and John, in this vision - saw that moment in time as seen in verses 6 above.  

Notice next, as soon as Jesus appeared in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. Again from other scriptures we know this to be truth: as soon as Jesus ascended He sent the Holy Spirit down, so He was on earth for the day of Pentecost. Notice next what Jesus did: the FIRST thing He did was get the book from the FAther.

This is the CONTEXT of the first seal. It shows us TIMING: around 32 AD. Therefore, ANY theory of the first seal must fit this timing. Yours obviously does not. 

he rides a white horse, which speaks of peace  Since you missed the context and was 2000 years off on what the first seal represents, every other point will be wrong. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and 16 times NOT for peace but for righteousness. How could you are ANYONE think that John would use white 16 times for righteousness and once for something evil?

at the beginning of the tribulation, the Antichrist will come  This may well be true, but John is at the beginning of the church age, not the beginning of the 70th week. You are 2000 years off, because you pulled this first seal out of its context. 

He is given a crown, which indicates that the Antichrist will exercise great authority   Wrong again. The first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. It is the church that receives a victor's crown. And this crown represents ULTIMATE victory, which does not fit the antichrist at all. 

he advances “as a conqueror bent on conquest”  Sorry, but it is the church that goes forth  conquering (overcoming) and to conquer and will end up with victory. The beast, on the other hand, will end up thrown into the lake of fire.  I do understand, the Antichrist Beast WILL conquer: Daniel tells us he will conquer three kings or nations. But in the first seal John is in the early church age.  We know that as soon as Jesus ascended, and all authority was given to Him, He gave order to the church to GO....go where? To take the gospel to the nations. However, SATAN is the god of the nations of the world. He was not just going to step aside and allow the gospel to enter his kingdoms! NO! Therefore the church had to OVERCOME the principalities and powers controlling the nations. Again, you are 2000 years off. 

The second seal. When the Lamb opens the second seal, great warfare breaks out on the earth  You are not far off here in meaning, (just 2000 years off in timing) but this warfare is LIMITED to one fourth of the earth: that fourth centered on Jerusalem where the gospel began. And it is for the duration of the church age: TWO world wars have started in this one fourth of the earth, and a third is sure to begin soon. I found a list once of all the wars in Europe iin the first 1000 years (AD 1 to AD 1000) and discovered there was hardly any period of time without a war going on somewhere.  There were also MUCH waring going on in Africa between tribes - also in that one fourth of the earth. 

The third seal. The breaking of the third of the seven seals causes famine  Again you are right on here, except 2000 years off. Famines have been rampant in Africa for centuries.  Even Europe has had famines. 

The result of this fourth seal is that one fourth of the earth’s population are killed “by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.”  Sorry, but you have TOTALLY missed what John wrote here. I suggest you read this over and over and over with no preconceptions. John is not telling us how many people are killed! He is telling us that these three, the Red horse and rider, the Black horse and rider, and the Pale horse and rider are LIMITED in their theater of operation to one fourth of the earth.  We don't know how many were killed or died due to war and famine and pestilence. 

Where did the black plague hit twice - killing about one third of the people each time? Europe! Remember, "ashes ashes we all fall down." Where has the Aids epidemic struck with so many dying? Africa! Again, in that one fourth these riders are allowed to operate.  Notice also that the first horse and rider are NOT INCLUDED in this group that is limited to one fourth. 


The scroll’s fifth seal reveals those who will be martyred for their faith in Christ during the tribulation  Again you are 2000 years off. John is at the beginning of the church age, you are 2000 years later. Stop and think for a moment: any martyr of the 70th week would KNOW they have only to wait out the week. On the other hand, take Stephen: killed at the beginning of the church age: he would have had NO IDEA how long it would be before judgment would come. That is why they asked. The church age it seems will be around 2000 years long. And martyrs are STILL BEING ADDED. (John has not yet arrived at the 70th week in his narrative.) Judgment is not going to come until the full number of church age martyrs is killed. 

The sixth seal.   Here we are both thinking future:  The 6th seal will be the start of judgment and the start of the Day of the Lord. But the rapture of the church will come a moment before the 6th seal. This great earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction." The earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. Those who are alive and are in Christ may well feel the ground begin to shake as they are caught up.

After the opening of the sixth of the seven seals is an interlude in the book of Revelation. John describes the 144,000 Jews who will be protected during the tribulation (Revelation 7:1–8 How astute of you! You have proven that the "tribulation" is FUTURE not past (as in the first seals). Good job!  Suppose you are watching a play with several "acts" and curtains that close between acts: what happens behind the curtains after it closes? They are rearranging the set to fit the next act.  This is exactly what John is doing in chapter 7. You see, the 7th seal officially starts the 70th week. In the mind of God, TWO EVENTS must happen before the 7th seal can start the 70th week: the church MUST BE seen in heaven, and the 144,000 MUST be sealed for their protection. Once God accomplishes these two things, then the 70th week can begin. And it will - with the 7th seal opening. 

The judgments that lead up to the close of the tribulation are now visible in the scroll  How nice of you to mention the scroll. It plays a HUGE part of John's narrative. This scroll was so important, God wanted to introduce it to John in the vision. But God wanted to start while the book (scroll) was still in the hand of the Father. Therefore God had to show the readers that He was backing up in time - so the readers would recognize that Jesus took this book as soon as He ascended. To accomplish this, God showed John (In the vision) a throne room with Jesus missing, a thone room while the Holy Spirit was still there, and a search for one worthy to take the book that ended in failure. Then God showed John the passing of time when Jesus was found worthy to take the book, and then as more time passed, Jesus ascending to the throne room and sending the Holy Spirit down.  

I am convinced that the contents of the book (what was written INSIDE) is the 70th week of Daniel. The scroll or book is opened as soon as the 7th and final seal is opened, so the trumpet judgements are the first thing to be read when the book  is opened. 

Your post is wayyyy too long to read.

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On 12/29/2019 at 1:40 AM, missmuffet said:

The first seal. The first seal introduces the Antichrist

 

 

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open [a]and read the scroll, or to look at it.  Sorry, but it is the church that goes forth  conquering (overcoming) and to conquer and will end up with victory.

If the first seal is the church why would John wept so much because the church was not a secret to John, as John himself part of the early church with Jesus. Very funny that John wept and then he saw something not a secret to him. Why wud God hide church evangelism with a seal ? ITS already known to people.

Edited by R. Hartono
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19 hours ago, missmuffet said:

He holds a bow, which shows his true intentions, and he advances “as a conqueror bent on conquest” (Revelation 6:2).

And his arrows are lies.  His conquest is against truth.

  • In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.  Ephesians 6:16

Lies aren't new but the opening of the first seal began a focused onslaught of them.  How else can people be convinced that there are more than two genders?  The war is truth vs. lies and is raging all around us.  Take up the shield of faith!

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15 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

 

If the first seal is the church why would John wept so much because the church was not a secret to John, as John himself part of the early church with Jesus. Very funny that John wept and then he saw something not a secret to him. Why wud God hide church evangelism with a seal ? ITS already known to people.

You are missing the TIMING!  John was weeping because no one was found worthy to take the book and begin opening the seals. At that time NO ONE but God knew what the first seal was.  It was not hidden. to send the church out into the world where Satan was God would be illegal for God - UNLESS God and Satan came to some kind of agreement.  That agreement was the seals on the book that allowed Satan to start wars, famines, and pestilences.  The truth is, God could NOT send the church out until someone was found worthy to take the book and open that seal.  I am convinced, Satan was sure NO ONE would ever be able to escape from hell by his or her OWN POWER. In 4000 years no one had done that. Therefore he was probably very confident no one would ever be found worthy to take the book and open the seals - and he, Satan, would remain god of this world forever. I am sure that was his plan.

The book was a legal document prepared in the court room of heaven.  Nothing could happen of what was written inside that book until all the seals were opened. And no event written about a seal could legally take place until that seal  was opened. 

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11 hours ago, Last Daze said:

And his arrows are lies.  His conquest is against truth.

  • In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.  Ephesians 6:16

Lies aren't new but the opening of the first seal began a focused onslaught of them.  How else can people be convinced that there are more than two genders?  The war is truth vs. lies and is raging all around us.  Take up the shield of faith!

True, lies are not new - but this has nothing to do with the first seal.

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23 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Your post is wayyyy too long to read.

It all depends on desire. I don't think you had a desire to read it

Edited by iamlamad
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3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

God could NOT send the church out until someone was found worthy to take the book and open that seal.

Evangelism has started be4 the 1ST SEAL IS OPENED, so your statement is based on story not on HISTORY.

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On 12/28/2019 at 11:11 AM, iamlamad said:

Many people study a tree and miss the forest. It is not difficult to tell where we are now: none of the vials have taken place. None of the trumpets have taken place. But only the last two seals remain unopened. Again, it is not difficult to tell the 6th seal is still future. But we all know many Martyrs have been killed and are still being killed. John wrote that the martyrs must wait for their final number to be complete, and then judgment will come - as seen at the 6th seal. Therefore the church has been waiting at the 5th seal - waiting for that final martyr, for the rapture that will trigger the 6th seal events. 

While that makes sense there is no proof. You are saying this is the way it is but offer only rationalization. Let's belabor the point:

"and [power] was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth" Here 'earth' is 'ge' which in context is 'the physical earth'. This is true as no qualifier noun exists in this statement. Peace is taken from the whole physical earth on which people live. But this 'taking peace' cannot be what we see now in the world. There has been no peace on earth and we have been slaying each other well before Jesus gave this prophecy, from the Father, to John. 

More to the point it's probably going to manifest in setting the followers of the beast against the followers of God. The small pockets of peace in cities and towns between neighbors will be taken as the two belief systems clash in hate and bloodshed. 

It's not an accurate portrayal of fulfillment to say "take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another:" is the condition of the world extant when this condition existed in far worse ways in ancient times. There simply has been no peace and we have been slaying one another.

Since the scripture as a whole, and Revelation specifically, is concerned with salvation and eternity it cannot be accurate to compare the 2 seal with previously existing conditions and must be related to the salvation of Christ, eternity and the ultimate destiny of mankind.

On 12/28/2019 at 11:11 AM, iamlamad said:

As usual, you are MISSING something: the ONLY believers in earth under God's wrath are those that would not get ready for His coming FOR the church. It most certainly is NOT God's will that any are appointed to His wrath - but what if people are determined to set their OWN appointments? God is only going to take those READY for the rapture when He comes. Much of the population of earth will be left behind to face His wrath. No, He is not angry with them. His wrath is only for those who REFUSE to repent. Millions will become believers during the 70th week. And without much doubt, millions will lose their head. 

Then they are not believers. So you are saying this, "For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him." is incorrect. You are saying two things at the same time. "Believers are not appointed to wrath, but some are." You must have read Animal Farm and are siding with the pigs.

I agree that many people will not believe, but only the ideology you hold throws millions of the group to which you say you belong into death and destruction, while the adherents of the most favored doctrine get to escape. That is elitism.  And you never account for the 100,000 of faithful believers in Jesus Christ who lose their lives for Christ every year. Where is their 'rapture'? Again the doctrine elevates its adherents to a level of which others of the same group are not worthy.

No believer and follower of Jesus 'sets their own appointment'. Where do you get this stuff?

It's not "not God's will..." it's "God has not appointed..." When read properly it shows if some believers are not taken in the pretrib rapture, then none are taken. Or if some are taken, then all are taken.

On 12/28/2019 at 11:11 AM, iamlamad said:

Did you not notice that the appointments for His wrath scripture is a part of the rapture passage? It will be ONLY those caught up that are not appointed to His wrath. All those left behind will be setting their OWN appointments - so not God's fault at all.

Since you brought it up:

"But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night; and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation.

For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, (This is all those who belong to the day and the light) but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. Therefore encourage and build one another up, just as you are already doing." - 1 Thess 5

Two groups: Day and Night.

All members of the church are, "sons of the light and sons of the day;" The rest sleep and are of the darkness and the night. Believers and non-believers not, some believers and other believers.

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On 12/26/2019 at 8:15 PM, OldCoot said:

One cannot make a legitimate case on the perceived absence of evidence.

True. There are two problems with absence of evidence:

There truly is no evidence or, one hasn't looked long or hard enough to find the evidence.

In either case no conclusion can be reached, only suppositions.

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