Will pregnancy and toddlers/children vanish when Rapture happens ?

[OldCoot]

45 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

YOU KNOW he did!  You are trying to add to the book by inserting and ONLY

I did not use the word "only" in any portion of the post I wrote.  I didn't add anything.  I just showed how I see the text explaining itself.  The outline of the book as explained by Yeshua thru the angel which should be observable using basic principles of grammatical structure that many should have learned in grade school.

The basic outline in shown in Revelation 1:19..... what was (the image of Yeshua) before John  was instructed to write down, what is (the churches), and what comes after the churches.  Pretty simple and basic, which could be why so many miss it.  And since the Church / Ekklesia is still here, by default we are still in the "what is" portion of the book.  Seal One comes in the "what comes after the churches" portion of the book.  And anyone who actually reads Revelation knows that the church is not mentioned again after chapter 3 until the later salutation given by John at the end of the book.

In your zeal to prove you are right, please refrain from character assassination and slander to accuse others.  It really harms the case you are trying to make.

Edited December 2, 2019 by OldCoot

[missmuffet]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There are countless people who have died and gone to heaven, and got prayed back to their body.

I have met Gary L Wood, and have heard his testimony three times. I have heard Jessie Duplantis' testimony once in person and over and over on tape. I have read many books on others who have been both to heaven and to hell and came back to tell. If these testimonies agree with the bible, WHY NOT believe them? Paul Testified of His supernatural experiences. Some of these cases, like Colton Burpo is proven because he knew things he could know only if he had been to heaven. 

Take Gary L Wood: he died in an auto accident; his neck was broken at the top: doctors say NO ONE can live with their neck broken there. His voice box was sliced in two and crushed.  In short, he was pronounced DEAD. But his spirit went to heaven. His sister was in the car with him but she was not hurt. She would not allow him to die, and prayed his spirit back. Jesus told him in heaven he would have to go back, for his sister was praying. Doctors have come to hear his testimony, to prove him a fake; but when they see the xrays of his broken neck, they suddenly realized he was telling the truth!

After he came back to his body in the hospital, of course he could not talk: is voice box had been sliced and crushed. Imagine the nurse then that came in and Gary said "Good morning" to her! She dropped her food tray and ran for a doctor!

All I am saying is, you are missing out on being blessed by rejecting such testimonies. 

Praying back your body is not biblical. 

[iamlamad]

37 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Praying back your body is not biblical. 

Oh, really?

Mat. 21:²² And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

I guess Peter and Paul were not biblical either then.

Edited December 2, 2019 by iamlamad

[missmuffet]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

Oh, really?

Mat. 21:²² And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

I guess Peter and Paul were not biblical either then.

Yes, really. That is what the Word of God tells me. God takes our soul for an eternity. We do not have the ability as humans to pray and allow our souls to return. 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I did not use the word "only" in any portion of the post I wrote.  I didn't add anything.  I just showed how I see the text explaining itself.  The outline of the book as explained by Yeshua thru the angel which should be observable using basic principles of grammatical structure that many should have learned in grade school.

The basic outline in shown in Revelation 1:19..... what was (the image of Yeshua) before John  was instructed to write down, what is (the churches), and what comes after the churches.  Pretty simple and basic, which could be why so many miss it.  And since the Church / Ekklesia is still here, by default we are still in the "what is" portion of the book.  Seal One comes in the "what comes after the churches" portion of the book.  And anyone who actually reads Revelation knows that the church is not mentioned again after chapter 3 until the later salutation given by John at the end of the book.

In your zeal to prove you are right, please refrain from character assassination and slander to accuse others.  It really harms the case you are trying to make.

OK, so you and I both know that there IS no "Only" in that verse. What that means is, God is free to include some history along with things to come. So your argument fails. God most certainly DID include many things to come. But he started with some history. 

What is: also includes John called up to heaven. Don't forget that detail! It is very simple to work backwards from the 7th vial to the 1st vial, then the 7th trumpet to the 1st trumpet, asking the question: has this happened yet? I think most people would get stopped at the 5th seal and say "there ARE martyrs being added to the church." Perhaps this is history. Then the 4th seal: we know that pestilence has run rampant in the world. It too is history. Then famines, same story; then wars: two world wars so far: so history.

I don't think I said anything about your character. 

By the way, when you use the hereafter verse to prove God was not using history, you may not notice it, but you are instinctively adding an "only" as if God had said John would write ONLY of future events. Since we both agree there is no "only," your argument fails. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Yes, really. That is what the Word of God tells me. God takes our soul for an eternity. We do not have the ability as humans to pray and allow our souls to return. 

One thing then is certain: you will never be used by God to raise the dead unless you get more faith.  Perhaps you have never heard of Smith Wigglesworth who raised around 19 people from the dead. HOW did He do it? By faith: he simply believed God. I know a preacher that prayed for 4 to 5 hours to get his son back to life - and he did. ANY believer can be used by God to raise the dead if they have faith. 

[OldCoot]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What is: also includes John called up to heaven.

No, because the text says....,

Revelation 4:1 (NKJV) After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."

The "after these" (Greek.. meta houtos) is the trigger that separates the parts of the outline of Revelation 1:19.  John was called up to heaven after the churches.  The delineation of the outline of Revelation could not be more clear.  

Revelation 1:19 (NKJV) Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are (the Churches), and the things which will take place after this.  (Greek.. meta houtos).

Feel free to break out whatever concordance, dictionary, interlinear you want.  

It is true that there are instances in the text of Revelation later where this same phrase is used, but this is the first occurrence which comports to the outline of the book as laid out by Yeshua.   All the other "after these" in the book are after yet future events that follow major future events...  after the seals.... after the sealed of the 12 tribes (the focus of the 70th week of Daniel) had happened, etc.  The very next occurrence of "after these" is after all 6 seals have been opened.  Not just one, two, three, four, or five.   And it would take some real expositional gymnastics to derive that all 6 seals are opened in the time of the churches.  

And the Thessalonians had been told in a forged letter claiming to be from Paul that the tribulation period had started. 2 Thessalonians 2:2, but Paul reminds them that day would not come unless a departure happens first.  Since the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 is the day of Christ and our gathering unto Him, the departure of verse 3 and the taken out of the way in verse 7 pertains to the church/ekklesia and the Holy Spirit who resides in the ekklesia.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 (1599 Geneva Bible) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.

And that likewise comports with "after these" of Revelation 4:1.

[missmuffet]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

One thing then is certain: you will never be used by God to raise the dead unless you get more faith.  Perhaps you have never heard of Smith Wigglesworth who raised around 19 people from the dead. HOW did He do it? By faith: he simply believed God. I know a preacher that prayed for 4 to 5 hours to get his son back to life - and he did. ANY believer can be used by God to raise the dead if they have faith. 

Jesus Christ raised the dead. No, I will not be used by God to raise the dead because that is not biblical. But suit yourself. 

Question: "Is raising the dead still possible today?"

Answer: In addition to Jesus Himself being raised from the dead, the Bible records nine other instances of people rising from the dead (1 Kings 17:22; 2 Kings 4:33–36; 13:21; Matthew 27:52; Luke 7:11–17; 8:40–56; John 11:43–44; Acts 9:40–41; 20:9–12). Clearly, bringing someone back from the dead is not beyond God’s power today: “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8). Since God is still capable of raising the dead, yes, raising the dead is still possible today.

A much more involved question is whether raising the dead actually occurs today. There are some in the Word-Faith movement who claim to have raised the dead, but credible evidence has never been produced. The many blatantly unbiblical teachings within the Word-Faith movement raise serious doubts regarding the legitimacy of any of their miracles. Some practitioners of voodoo and witchcraft also claim to have raised people from the dead. While satanic miracles are possible (2 Thessalonians 2:9), it seems unlikely that Satan possesses the power to raise the dead.

If a person who was officially pronounced dead was raised back to life, it would be an amazing miracle. Surely if a person was raised from the dead in the name of Christ, it would convince everyone to receive Jesus as Savior. Right? Wrong. Jesus addressed this very issue in Luke 16:30-31, “But if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent. . . . If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.” Why does raising the dead probably not occur today? Amazing miracles are not what lead people to genuine faith. If a person is rejecting the Word of God, no miracle will convince the person to repent and receive Jesus Christ as Savior. All a miracle would do is cause people to clamor for more miracles (Matthew 12:39; John 6:26).

https://www.gotquestions.org/raising-the-dead.html

Edited December 3, 2019 by missmuffet

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Jesus Christ raised the dead. No, I will not be used by God to raise the dead because that is not biblical. But suit yourself. 

 

How can you said it is not biblical when Peter raised Tabitha from the dead? He was the leader of the church then. 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, OldCoot said:

No, because the text says....,

Revelation 4:1 (NKJV) After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."

The "after these" (Greek.. meta houtos) is the trigger that separates the parts of the outline of Revelation 1:19.  John was called up to heaven after the churches.  The delineation of the outline of Revelation could not be more clear.  

Revelation 1:19 (NKJV) Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are (the Churches), and the things which will take place after this.  (Greek.. meta houtos).

Feel free to break out whatever concordance, dictionary, interlinear you want.  

It is true that there are instances in the text of Revelation later where this same phrase is used, but this is the first occurrence which comports to the outline of the book as laid out by Yeshua.   All the other "after these" in the book are after yet future events that follow major future events...  after the seals.... after the sealed of the 12 tribes (the focus of the 70th week of Daniel) had happened, etc.  The very next occurrence of "after these" is after all 6 seals have been opened.  Not just one, two, three, four, or five.   And it would take some real expositional gymnastics to derive that all 6 seals are opened in the time of the churches.  

And the Thessalonians had been told in a forged letter claiming to be from Paul that the tribulation period had started. 2 Thessalonians 2:2, but Paul reminds them that day would not come unless a departure happens first.  Since the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 is the day of Christ and our gathering unto Him, the departure of verse 3 and the taken out of the way in verse 7 pertains to the church/ekklesia and the Holy Spirit who resides in the ekklesia.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 (1599 Geneva Bible) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.

And that likewise comports with "after these" of Revelation 4:1.

If John was caught up to heaven, and we KNOW he was, then that was still church age! In fact it was around 95 AD in the church age. You know this! You are trying to make the transitional phrase "after this" or "after these things" MUCH more that the Author. John is only showing us that God was changing from one part of the vision to another. The truth is, if the church age ended in 4:1 then we would not have the rest of the book! John was very much alive through all chapters of Revelation, because it was a VISION received during his lifetime. 

Now, perhaps we should talk about VISION time: what time is John displaying during his narrative of the vision shown to him. We know it goes at least a thousand years plus past our time now. I see a distinct change of TIME  between the 5th seal and the 6th: the 5th seal - martyrs of the church age while the 6th seal is future to us today.  I guess you don't see that. 

Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are (the Churches), and the things which will take place after this.   John CERTAINLY accomplished this. But take note that there is no "only there" so this does not preclude God from including some history while he is showing John things to come.  Now, be honest with the scriptures: DID John write things that are still future to us today? In other words, DID JOHN accomplish what God said here? You know He did.

The "after these" (Greek.. meta houtos) is the trigger that separates the parts of the outline of Revelation 1:19.   This is opinion only and is not really truth. You THINK it is truth,  I do not. Are there still martyrs: people being killed for their love of Jesus?

this is the first occurrence which comports to the outline of the book as laid out by Yeshua.   Opinion only: it must be proven be scripture. Are there still people being martyred? You know there are. Perhaps you should read the 5th seal again.

it would take some real expositional gymnastics to derive that all 6 seals are opened in the time of the churches.   NO one I know of thinks all 7 seals are opened. I agree with you here. I believe the church has been at the 5th seal, the martyrs of the church age, all this time, and when the rapture comes, it will trigger the 6th seal events.  By the way, I think you meant after all 7 seals.

a forged letter claiming to be from Paul that the tribulation period had started.  John used the term, "Day of the Lord." (I know some Greek Texts have "Day of Christ." Paul used "Day of the Lord" in his first letter.  They were very aware that the rapture had not taken place yet.)

Since the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 is the day of Christ and our gathering unto Him  I have never seen biblical proof that "the day of Christ" is different from the Day of the Lord, or proof that the Day of Christ is the day of the rapture.  Again, better to stick with what John said: HIS COMING are our gathering to Him.

the departure of verse 3 and the taken out of the way in verse 7 pertains to the church  I could not agree more! Good job on this passage! The departing comes first, before the man of sin is revealed. When people see this revealing, then they will know the DAY has arrived and it present. 

And that likewise comports with "after these" of Revelation 4:1.  It was 95 AD when God dictated to John the messages to the churches. Yes, I agree, the rapture will be LONG after 95 AD. 

I have a suggestion: what was REALLY happening in chapters 2 and 3 was that God was dictating to John (in a vision) messages to give to the churches. Keep in mind, NINETY FIVE AD (some say 65) so chapters 2 is God dictating. John is writing AFTER THE FACT, so knows there is a change in what God is doing in the vision; no more dictating: that part is over; now God is going to change the vision and in the vision John is called up to heaven. (Did He REALLY go?)  This is actual factual: what REALLY happened. Then, on the other hand, there are people that IMAGINE chapters 2 & 3 are the church age and the church age ends at the last verse of chapter 3. It is myth. John is still in the church age in 4:1: the ONLY thing that changed was God's direction in the vision.