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CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE vs. JEWISH TRADITION


choir loft

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2 hours ago, choir loft said:

 

Oh and by the way I hold a Masters Degree in Theology,

Yeah, im also seminary trained, and have taught all over the world.

Sometimes i live in Israel, and i teach there also.

Are you impressed?  Neither am i impressed with your piece of paper.

And as i said, your original comment was to state that the "church" doctrine, was not 99% given by Paul, or do you now agree that Paul gave the New Testament "church", nearly 100% of all REAL church doctrine, after he was personally taught it by Jesus The Christ ????

Do you agree now, or do you prefer to remain in your original point of view/ ?

So, if your masters degree has led you to what you have previously stated about Paul, then i respect your degree even less.

No offense intended, but, God does not care about our piece of paper(s) and is even less impressed when someone needs to post about it on a forum to try to garner credibility that they have not yet proven they deserve.

 

Think on that.

Edited by Behold
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1 hour ago, choir loft said:

 

Our (American) society has become infected with the lies and deceptions of fools - reinforced from the pulpit.

And what make you think you are not describing yourself?

Maybe you should take a closer look....

You are not using anything Paul Teaches to back up or reinforce your opinions.

Until you realize this about yourself, you are going to stay stranded in the weeds, deep into the dark.

Really.

 

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7 hours ago, choir loft said:

My references are in accord with accepted forms of definition and purpose.   In my opinion, specific individual intellectual aberrations are invalid.

Using hypotheticals to justify lies and innuendo are not appropriate to discern truth from anywhere, especially the Bible.

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it. - Adolph Hitler

Our (American) society has become infected with the lies and deceptions of fools - reinforced from the pulpit.  Unless and until we realize the hard and fast and unchangeable advantages to God's LAW we will continue to circle the drain of self-destruction.  Past civilizations that preferred to justify their own sins and wickedness by means of philosophy eventually collapsed.

As will our own.

When, not if, it happens those who employed private philosophies to deflect their guilt of sin will not know what hit them.

and God will laugh at them.....  (I will laugh when disaster strikes you; I will mock when calamity overtakes you. - Proverbs 1:26)

As to my acceptance or rejection of your favorite intellectual poison, I believe I've made my position clear.  Can you not even understand a simple yes or no?

It is my purpose here to generate consideration of the advantages of the unchangeable character of God's LAW as being superior to that of human philosophy that changes with every passion of the flesh.

Now I ask this of you; will you admit to God's LAW as an absolute and true definition of sin or will you reject it?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Hi there!

I'll take that as a non-answer.

When you are content to uphold modus tollens, let me know!

blessings in Christ....

 

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23 hours ago, Behold said:

Yeah, im also seminary trained, and have taught all over the world.

Sometimes i live in Israel, and i teach there also.

Are you impressed?  Neither am i impressed with your piece of paper.

And as i said, your original comment was to state that the "church" doctrine, was not 99% given by Paul, or do you now agree that Paul gave the New Testament "church", nearly 100% of all REAL church doctrine, after he was personally taught it by Jesus The Christ ????

Do you agree now, or do you prefer to remain in your original point of view/ ?

So, if your masters degree has led you to what you have previously stated about Paul, then i respect your degree even less.

No offense intended, but, God does not care about our piece of paper(s) and is even less impressed when someone needs to post about it on a forum to try to garner credibility that they have not yet proven they deserve.

 

Think on that.

Did I attempt to attain credibility?   No.

Did you actually read my words?  No.

I wrote that nobody cares.   So it is and so they do not.  Do I expect you to be impressed?  I do not.  

I don't even expect you to seriously consider church history as the basis of the post modern gospel.

I seriously doubt you studied anything at all of church history, church doctrine or that you understood your own experience - if indeed you aren't misrepresenting that too.  Many false prophets lived and taught in Israel.  Residence and religious articulation do not qualify one as being a servant of the Most High.

Secular pagan influences affected church doctrine from the beginning of the cult (as it was called by Jews and gentiles alike - or weren't you aware of that?).  

The Nicene Creed, for example, was called into existence by the Roman emperor Constantine.  Because Constantine financed the travel and lodging of Christian bishops to the convention site, his influence on matters such as the doctrine of the Trinity (which Paul never spoke of, btw) was considerable.  A fist fight even broke out during the convention between Arias and a bishop of the city of Lycia - Nicholas by name.  Bishop Nicholas was later renamed by American retail interests into the present demigod of holiday commercialism, Santa Claus.  Neither Constantine nor Nicholas deferred to Pauline doctrine with regard to the Trinity.  It's basically a pagan ideology adopted by the church.  

Another major pagan dogma is that of hell, which doesn't exist and isn't mentioned at all by Paul or any other Biblical writer.   Church influences on the doctrine beginning with Augustine are based upon Greek myth and Egyptian religion NOT the Bible.   

Other issues such as evolution, the rapture and the idea of global proselytization prior to the second coming of Christ are all pagan or secularized versions of Christian doctrine NOT found or justified by scripture.  

Christian communion is yet another aberration of scripture.   It's a paganized version of the Jewish seder, celebrated once a year not every week.  The aberrations of church dogma go on and on.  Even slavery global war and the holocaust have been and continue to be justified by the church. Don't dishonor the memory of St. Paul by claiming he backed those obscene ideas.  He did not.

I can go on and argue each item of church doctrine NOT based upon the Bible, but the main point I wish to make here is that the church has abandoned the LAW as the bedrock of salvation.  

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Today anybody and everybody is supposed to be saved regardless of their relationship with Christ.  Doctrinal grace now justifies licentiousness of every imaginable sort, but because the church has abandoned the LAW as a basis for Biblical interpretation the gospel has become a joke.

As are your points - each and every one.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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17 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Hi there!

I'll take that as a non-answer.

When you are content to uphold modus tollens, let me know!

blessings in Christ....

 

Now I ask this of you; will you admit to God's LAW as an absolute and true definition of sin or will you reject it?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

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“ Christ is the END OF THE LAW for all of those that Believe”

” Those that desire to be under the Law are under the CURSE of the Law”

 

As for all those degrees you take so much Pride in.....Perhaps the best teacher of God’s Word alive today is an old, cattle farmer from Oklahoma named Les Feldick.... you would be wise to flush those worthless degrees and learn from him...

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6 hours ago, choir loft said:

Now I ask this of you; will you admit to God's LAW as an absolute and true definition of sin or will you reject it?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Yes, my friend.

Torah is truth (Ps.119:142).  Agreed!

Thus, we must REJOICE in truth (1Cor.13:6), not oppose it!  So we must OBEY Torah, just as Jesus requires (Mt.5:19).

So sure enough...SIN is VIOLATION OF TORAH (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4;Is.42:24).

CONCLUSION:  STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH!

So, let's OBEY the Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10) of the New Covenant in which we partake.

blessings...

 

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5 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

“ Christ is the END OF THE LAW for all of those that Believe”

” Those that desire to be under the Law are under the CURSE of the Law”

 

As for all those degrees you take so much Pride in.....Perhaps the best teacher of God’s Word alive today is an old, cattle farmer from Oklahoma named Les Feldick.... you would be wise to flush those worthless degrees and learn from him...

"“ Christ is the END OF THE LAW for all of those that Believe”"

That's right!  Christ is the PURPOSE/GOAL/AIM (Gr. " τέλος ", Rom.10:4, not termination!) of the Torah.

That is, TORAH POINTS TO CHRIST (Dt.18:15).

And that same Christ points us to TORAH (Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

After all, Christ IS the Torah (Jn.1:14).

Is Christ TERMINATED?  Of course not!  So neither is the Torah!

After all, Paul (Rom. 10) goes on to clarify that TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the very word of faith Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Paul requires FAITH (Gal.3:11); Jesus says FAITH IS OF TORAH (Mt.23:23).

That's why Paul says we are justified by TORAH (Rom.2:13) + FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER!

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (Jas.2:24).

But BOTH.  LAW+FAITH.

TOGETHER.

 

"” Those that desire to be under the Law are under the CURSE of the Law”"

WHICH LAW?

LAW#1:  The law of sinful disobedience and death (Dt.30:15-19)

LAW#2: The law of righteous obedience and life (Dt.30:15-19)

Paul merely says we are not under LAW#1 (Rom.8:2).

Paul REQUIRES Law #2! (2Ti.3:16).

 

"Perhaps the best teacher of God’s Word alive today is..."

TORAH is God's word (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc.)

So let's OBEY Torah!

blessings...

 

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Paul said the Law was “weak”.It was.It had no POWER to save.So why do you venerate it so much?Its WORTHLESS as far as Salvation is concerned .The Law was so inadequate God had to put in place a NEW Plan.....not really “ new”—— it was a mystery that was kept secret for Millenia ......It’s called the Gospel...Read all about it on 1 Cor15:1-4.....If the Law has done its intended job in your life — showing you that you can’t keep it and need a Savior......discard it and go with something that God knows is infinitely better as far as obedience and right- living is concerned.... “ Christ in you”. Grace is  SO superior to Law Keeping .If one is not reveling in Grace,they do not understand Christianity.At all.Have fun with your religion—“ JudaAnity”. God won’t have it. 

 

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23 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

After all, Christ IS the Torah (Jn.1:14).

Christ is Not the Torah, He is the Word of God Made flesh. 

Let's use the Bible for the Bible Guy, to explain this. 

1 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (Gal 3:24) Here we see the Law is a schoolmaster, If Jesus is the Torah, then He is merely a schoolmaster, But He is the Word made flesh, The Torah is meant to Lead us to the cross, and Christ on our knees. But the Torah is not Jesus.

2 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Romans 8:3) What the Torah could not Do, Christ could do, and that is change the Heart of Man from the inside out. So if the Jesus is the Torah he is weak through the flesh. Which means he is not the Torah.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Luke 16:16) Jesus' ministry began after John, and his testament was not in full effect until his death. Jesus did not cease at the ministry of John, But began with the ministry of John, therefore Jesus is not the Torah, but the Torah points to Jesus.

I Could go on here, But the point is made. This is the big error of the Hebrew roots people, and I saw one of their famous speakers with Blatant error of saying we are saved by the Torah on their website, Which is to Blaspheme Jesus. The Law Points to and leads us to Jesus, But it is not Jesus, Just like a road sign leads to the city, but is not the city.   

 

 

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