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CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE vs. JEWISH TRADITION


choir loft

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We come home from work, look in the mirror and see our face is dirty, ...do we use the mirror to wash our face?

The Law is a mirror that we look into, some believe it is physical commandments, ...but God placed 8 material/physical examples of spiritual principles between two spiritual book ends of Truth.

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me and Thou shalt not covet, ...when any one tries to turn a spiritual principle into a material/physical "law" they have disobey the first and last commandments...

They have become their "own" god in trying to physically keep the spiritual principles and they have "coveted" after the Divine ability to "keep" the spiritual principles of the other 8. 

Jesus explained this to us when He taught if we lust after a woman in our mind, ...without committing the physical act, we have "committed" the sin, ..or if we think a man is an idiot and speak it from our mouth we are guilty of murder, ...the origin of the sin being in our mind. 

Hence when we bring the spiritual principles of the Law down to the human, physical, material level, we are guilty of listening to the lie of the serpent, ...You will become like God!"

Jesus "kept" the 8 perfectly, and since He is God, ...He didn't have any other gods before the Father and because He is God He didn't have to "covet" the Divine ability to keep the other 8, ...Jesus the 
God who became a Man to accomplish the righteous spiritual requirements of the Law necessary for man to have communion with God reestablished!

Lord bless

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5 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Paul said the Law was “weak”.It was.It had no POWER to save.So why do you venerate it so much?Its WORTHLESS as far as Salvation is concerned .The Law was so inadequate God had to put in place a NEW Plan.....not really “ new”—— it was a mystery that was kept secret for Millenia ......It’s called the Gospel...Read all about it on 1 Cor15:1-4.....If the Law has done its intended job in your life — showing you that you can’t keep it and need a Savior......discard it and go with something that God knows is infinitely better as far as obedience and right- living is concerned.... “ Christ in you”. Grace is  SO superior to Law Keeping .If one is not reveling in Grace,they do not understand Christianity.At all.Have fun with your religion—“ JudaAnity”. God won’t have it. 

 

Just be sure to say WHY it was weak .    Due to the flesh .    The law itself is holy and good .   God did give it .  

But the law ,  due to our flesh ,   cannot do for us , WHAT CHRIST CAN DO  for and through us .  WE can walk righteously , IN JESUS CHRIST .

The law was not the problem ,   MAN was and is the problem .   BUT as you said , GOD DID HAVE a plan  .  AND IT WAS and it is JESUS CHRIST .

That by the power of the risen savoir we can walk in newness of life ,  not sins death power over us , BUT NEWNESS of TRUE LIFE .

There is power IN THE BLOOD and its a power that can change the darkest heart , darkest man , worst sinner as I was ,   and TRANSFORM Them into a whole new creature .

Just when you make mention of the law ,   lets say the WHY part better . As did paul. IN THAT it was weak THROUGH THE FLESH

Gods law is perfect , converting the soul ,  its just ONE must have the SPIRIT and then the righteousness OF the law would be on our hearts .

IN the days ahead I would like us all to start , when it comes to sin and error , SOUND like paul did and james and others .   

THE LAW was truly as a school master for me ,   cause I sure did not learn this in no church .    This indeed led me to CHRIST ,  course it was all by the grace of GOD

at work in me .   I would just like us to remind , when it comes to error and such ,   To be more grave and serious like all the apostels and JESUS were .

Now be encouraged BB .   

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I got a trivia question .    WHO INSPIRED THE LAW .   was it man or GOD .

It was given TO MOSES ,  IF GOD INSPIRES SOMETHING rest assured it is holy and it is just and it is good .

But for finding fault with THEM ,  HE SAID I will make a NEW COVENANT,  in those days I will actually WRITE MY LAWS on their hearts and in their minds

I WILL WALK WITH THEM , they shall be my people and I ,  I SHALL BE THIER GOD .

For the time did come as JESUS said ,  GOD desires men to worship HIM ,  IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH .

 

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And now its time to :dance:     dance an all out praise fest TO THE LORD .      So get up and get to dancing and praising .  CAUSE LAMBS GOT ALL HOPE .  JESUS IS THEIR HOPE .

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11 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

“ Christ is the END OF THE LAW for all of those that Believe”

” Those that desire to be under the Law are under the CURSE of the Law”

 

As for all those degrees you take so much Pride in.....Perhaps the best teacher of God’s Word alive today is an old, cattle farmer from Oklahoma named Les Feldick.... you would be wise to flush those worthless degrees and learn from him...

For can NO MAN be JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW IN HIS SIGHT ,  IS VERY EVIDENT . FOR THE JUST shall live how ,  BY FAITH .

Hope you don't mind if I reword your last long sentence .  HERE is how I would put it .

As for all those degrees ,  hermes or exergies , trash it all .  THE BEST TEACHER O GODS WORD ,   IS GOD .    And if ONE HAS THE SPIRIT

then OPEN ONE BOOK called the bible and LEARN FROM IT .   

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11 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Just be sure to say WHY it was weak .    Due to the flesh .    The law itself is holy and good .   God did give it .  

But the law ,  due to our flesh ,   cannot do for us , WHAT CHRIST CAN DO  for and through us .  WE can walk righteously , IN JESUS CHRIST .

The law was not the problem ,   MAN was and is the problem .   BUT as you said , GOD DID HAVE a plan  .  AND IT WAS and it is JESUS CHRIST .

That by the power of the risen savoir we can walk in newness of life ,  not sins death power over us , BUT NEWNESS of TRUE LIFE .

There is power IN THE BLOOD and its a power that can change the darkest heart , darkest man , worst sinner as I was ,   and TRANSFORM Them into a whole new creature .

Just when you make mention of the law ,   lets say the WHY part better . As did paul. IN THAT it was weak THROUGH THE FLESH

Gods law is perfect , converting the soul ,  its just ONE must have the SPIRIT and then the righteousness OF the law would be on our hearts .

IN the days ahead I would like us all to start , when it comes to sin and error , SOUND like paul did and james and others .   

THE LAW was truly as a school master for me ,   cause I sure did not learn this in no church .    This indeed led me to CHRIST ,  course it was all by the grace of GOD

at work in me .   I would just like us to remind , when it comes to error and such ,   To be more grave and serious like all the apostels and JESUS were .

Now be encouraged BB .   

You write the LAW is weak because of the flesh.   St. Paul wrote it was obsolete and is passing away.... (Hebrews 8:13)

Matthew 5:17 quotes Jesus as saying, "I did not come to abolish the LAW or the prophets.  I came to fulfill it."

THE QUESTION before us is thus:

If the LAW is NOT ABOLISHED and if Christ fulfilled it, then what part of the LAW is weak?  Which part of the LAW was becoming obsolete as Paul wrote?

No one can be saved apart from the LAW.  Why?  Sunday school 101 tells us the LAW convicts us of sin.   Conviction of sin inspires repentance which in turn leads to forgiveness salvation and the gift of grace.  Grace allows us to live according to THE LAW - thus pleasing God.  LAW and GRACE thus work together, but what part of the LAW was weak and which part was passing away?

The book of Exodus establishes God's remedy for sin.   That remedy for the wages of sin is death.  Since God desires man to be free of guilt He established the LAW which not only convicts of sin, but provides a sacrifice for it.  In Exodus and again in Leviticus the sacrifice for sin was the death of animals.  Death pays for the sins of a sinner because the life of a creature is in its blood.

Unfortunately the LAW as written in Exodus is imperfect BECAUSE animal blood is temporary.   Animal sacrifice was required continually because an animal is mortal.   Animal sacrifice had to be performed again and again.  Jesus' sacrifice is permanent because of Jesus' immortal nature - because Jesus IS God.  The death of Christ is therefore a perfect fulfillment of the LAW, not the abolition of it.  The LAW still stands in all its weight and power.   

When Paul wrote the LAW was passing away, animal sacrifices were still being performed in the Jerusalem temple.  He knew the meaning of Jesus' words quoted by Matthew.   The perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross is only needed once and applies perpetually because of His immortal nature.   Also because of His immortal nature He is able to impute His righteousness and His life to those who accept it - also according to Exodus.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

When folks use grace as an excuse to sin, dogmatically stating they're saved by grace not LAW, they are speaking error.   Why?  Because they know neither LAW nor GRACE nor how God expects them to live - according to the LAW enabled by GRACE. 

Jews do not understand GRACE and hold to tradition which cannot save.

Christians do not understand LAW and hold to doctrine which cannot save either.

Both stumble over Christ who is the cornerstone of human redemption.

I once attended a Baptist church hosting a guest speaker.  The sermon was delivered by the Dean of a local Bible college and the subject was grace.  At the end of the sermon he said, "go out and sin this week that grace may abound."

One way or another God will have an end to SIN.  Either it will end in a sinner's repentance or it will end in a sinner's death ! 

The LAW defines it and Grace never allows for it.  The LAW still stands and GRACE is not a get-out-of-jail-free card to be liberally applied to any filthy thing one wants to put his hand upon.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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23 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

“ Christ is the END OF THE LAW for all of those that Believe”

” Those that desire to be under the Law are under the CURSE of the Law”

 

As for all those degrees you take so much Pride in.....Perhaps the best teacher of God’s Word alive today is an old, cattle farmer from Oklahoma named Les Feldick.... you would be wise to flush those worthless degrees and learn from him...

God's Word may be an excellent teacher, but no one is born with the knowledge of how to open God's Word to learn from it.  

Even Jesus humbled Himself before learned men to learn of the LAW and Prophets.  (Luke chapter 2)

If it was good enough for Jesus, then who do you think you are?

One must be taught how to interpret GOD'S WORD and it is typically the formally educated elder who dispenses the skills to do it.  

Even your cattle farmer had to learn something from someone.  One cannot learn by osmosis - as many teachers tell their students.  Your cattle farmer may know bovine excrement, but he knows little else.   Expertise in farming, or any other occupation, does not automatically make one an expert on another subject.  Would you want your cattle farmer to perform open heart surgery on you? Neither does some Hollywood Oscar winner know anything about the context of the Bible.

CAUTION: Your farmer's pithy remarks may impress Biblically illiterate people, but they are not necessarily true or accurate with regard to Biblical interpretation.

One must be taught HOW to interpret the passages of Holy Writ.  A legitimate teacher has himself been taught by his elders - as was JESUS.

Many Christians pridefully consider themselves to be experts in interpretation - to their own shame.  Few acknowledge their need to learn - really learn.  Look at your church's parking lot and count the cars.  Why are there more cars present for worship services than at times when TEACHING is made available (typically Sunday or Wednesday evening)?  The majority of those who call themselves Christian are Biblically illiterate - and proud of it !

"It matters very little to me how I am evaluated by you or by any human court" - Paul as written in 1 Corinthians 4:3a

The wise man will learn from his elders.  The fool will not.

Here's a true example of the extent of ignorance -

My wife's friend was asked by a church pastor to arrange the dance routines for a Christmas presentation.   Pastor asked her to have a religious theme in the dance she was teaching the kids.  She didn't know what he meant.   He asked her what she knew of Christmas.

"Christmas is the day Jesus was born," she said.   "New Year's Eve is the Last Supper because December 31st is the last evening of the year.  On New Year's Day Jesus' parents (she didn't know their names) held Jesus up in the air before the people and presented Him as their savior."

"This presentation isn't THE LION KING," the pastor said.

True story.

This is exactly what happens when an illiterate fool takes it upon himself or herself to interpret the Bible.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...    

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8 minutes ago, choir loft said:

You write the LAW is weak because of the flesh.   St. Paul wrote it was obsolete and is passing away.... (Hebrews 8:13)

Matthew 5:17 quotes Jesus as saying, "I did not come to abolish the LAW or the prophets.  I came to fulfill it."

THE QUESTION before us is thus:

If the LAW is NOT ABOLISHED and if Christ fulfilled it, then what part of the LAW is weak?  Which part of the LAW was becoming obsolete as Paul wrote?

No one can be saved apart from the LAW.  Why?  Sunday school 101 tells us the LAW convicts us of sin.   Conviction of sin inspires repentance which in turn leads to forgiveness salvation and the gift of grace.  Grace allows us to live according to THE LAW - thus pleasing God.  LAW and GRACE thus work together, but what part of the LAW was weak and which part was passing away?

The book of Exodus establishes God's remedy for sin.   That remedy for the wages of sin is death.  Since God desires man to be free of guilt He established the LAW which not only convicts of sin, but provides a sacrifice for it.  In Exodus and again in Leviticus the sacrifice for sin was the death of animals.  Death pays for the sins of a sinner because the life of a creature is in its blood.

Unfortunately the LAW as written in Exodus is imperfect BECAUSE animal blood is temporary.   Animal sacrifice was required continually because an animal is mortal.   Animal sacrifice had to be performed again and again.  Jesus' sacrifice is permanent because of Jesus' immortal nature.  The death of Christ is therefore a perfect fulfillment of the LAW, not the abolition of it.  The LAW still stands in all its weight and power.   

When Paul wrote the LAW was passing away, animal sacrifices were still being performed in the Jerusalem temple.  He knew the meaning of Jesus' words quoted by Matthew.   The perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross is only needed once and applies perpetually because of His immortal nature.   Also because of His immortal nature He is able to impute His righteousness and His life to those who accept it - also according to Exodus.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

When folks use grace as an excuse to sin, dogmatically stating they're saved by grace not LAW, they are speaking error.   Why?  Because they know neither LAW nor GRACE nor how God expects them to live - according to the LAW enabled by GRACE. 

Jews do not understand GRACE and hold to tradition which cannot save.

Christians do not understand LAW and hold to doctrine which cannot save either.

Both stumble over Christ who is the cornerstone of human redemption.

I once attended a Baptist church hosting a guest speaker.  The sermon was delivered by the Dean of a local Bible college and the subject was grace.  At the end of the sermon he said, "go out and sin this week that grace may abound."

One way or another God will have an end to SIN.  Either it will end in a sinner's repentance or it will end in a sinner's death ! 

The LAW defines it and Grace never allows for it.  The LAW still stands and GRACE is not a get-out-of-jail-free card to be liberally applied to any filthy thing one wants to put his hand upon.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Shall we sin that grace may abound .  GOD FORBID .  How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer in sin , therein .

If we follow Christ then the righteousness of the law would be fulfilled in us .   

The doing what is good , holy and righteous in the sight of GOD would be in us .

For He would dwell and does dwell in those who are HIS , whose faith is in CHRIST JESUS .

We would be DOING what is well pleasing IN HIS SIGHT and the law is NOT AGAINST THIS .

The law tells us what is right in the sight of GOD and what is evil in the sight of GOD .

Thus grace does not make VOID the law .  It establishes the law upon our hearts .

And we know that it is not the law that saved us ,  But JESUS WHO SAVED US and gives us the eyes to see and the ears to hear that which fulfills , and not that which transgresses .

Grace does not give us a license to sin . FOR WHOM we serve HIS we are .  Grace teaches us to deny that which is evil , the flesh , the lusts , that which is contrary to A HOLY GOD .

And it has us walking righteously , godly , soberly in this world . 

The  law itself pointed to JESUS .    As did the prophets .

We no longer have to do all those ritual sacrifices for sin or error . THE BLOOD of bulls and goats could not sprinkle clean the inner conscious , they held not the power

THE BLOOD of JESUS DOES .   

He has made his law honorable ,  JESUS came to save us from the lake of fire , by paying the price of our transgressions , To set us FREE FROM SIN

that we would no longer be a slave to its desire and be in its bondage . For the end of sin is death . And all will be delivered into the lake of fire who knew NOT CHRIST

and if they knew HIM , they would have known this power I speak about . If any man HAS not the SPIRIT of CHRIST he is none of his , and if we have THE SPIRIT

then the body is dead because of sin . 

There is power in the BLOOD , but it is a POWER that most know not .

By grace GOD draws us to the SON , to FAITH in HIM , and by THIS FAITH we then have access into the continual grace of GOD which changes the heart and mind

the whole inner being into a new man .     Where sin becomes exceeding sinful to us , where in our conscious even the whiff of evil has such a stench unto our nostrils .

That even the sight of evil shuts the eye to all appearance of what is evil .   THERE IS POWER in the BLOOD , only many know it not .

For many have sat under men and those men knew not the POWER of the LIFE SAVING and LIFE CHANGING BLOOD of CHRIST .

Many do not teach as did paul or james , Jude , or peter , OR above all CHRIST DID , when it comes to sin or error . THEY DONT DO IT .

Instead of teaching GO and sin no more ,  if anyone even repeats that phrase , they commonly say , OH WE cant stop sinning are you perfect .

Instead of saying as did paul ,   To let all who name the name of Christ depart from inquity ,   when its said , THEY say , OH GODS grace covers this

HE understands we cant stop sinning , or words to that effect . 

Instead of like paul , teaching to let not these things be named even ONCE among you ,   and when this is said , THEY come up with the same lines

as what I said above . YET paul and others NEVER gave this kind of instruction concerning sin and error and many today do .

For paul knew something that most today would say IS IMPOSSIBLE .  YET IT IS POSSIBLE .

And that is this ,   SIN WILL and DOES HARDEN A HEART and can and will surely destroy a lamb , it will harden its heart .

Paul knew and taught as JESUS had taught and as did the other apostels too .

Sin is deadly and we must fight the fight daily against the very evils of our own flesh ,  keeping the body subjected unto CHRIST

AND ,   if any does err ,  DO the pattern JESUS SET UP ,   CORRECT , warn , rebuke and do so quickly .

Its why my plea has been for all to abandon the many pulpits of men and return to bibles only .    IF we would be read and read continuously those letters

the holy scriptures , the wholesome words of JESUS ,   then our minds would have been built up and we would have remained sharp and alert against the fables of men .

And IF we are truly HIS , THEN HIS SPIRIT would have long put a love for TRUTH upon our hearts .

And lambs don't sit under strangers , no matter how well those strangers can deck themselves up TO LOOK LIKE LAMBS .

NOPE a lamb , BY grace , BY JESUS CHRIST ,  can whiff a wolf no matter how much wool is has put on , IT CAN WHIFF THEM .   JESUS IS with the sheep

and the Grace He gives to his own , is the same grace HIS OWN would share with others .   GET INTO BIBLES PEOPLE ,  its what the HOLY GHOST PUT ME IN

and its now what I , by grace , am doing for others . GO back into BIBLES Only everyone .  DO it now and let the pure words and holy reminders , COUPLED with the SPIRIT

cleanse the minds and hearts of the people .

 

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19 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Christ is Not the Torah, He is the Word of God Made flesh. 

Let's use the Bible for the Bible Guy, to explain this. 

1 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (Gal 3:24) Here we see the Law is a schoolmaster, If Jesus is the Torah, then He is merely a schoolmaster, But He is the Word made flesh, The Torah is meant to Lead us to the cross, and Christ on our knees. But the Torah is not Jesus.

2 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Romans 8:3) What the Torah could not Do, Christ could do, and that is change the Heart of Man from the inside out. So if the Jesus is the Torah he is weak through the flesh. Which means he is not the Torah.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Luke 16:16) Jesus' ministry began after John, and his testament was not in full effect until his death. Jesus did not cease at the ministry of John, But began with the ministry of John, therefore Jesus is not the Torah, but the Torah points to Jesus.

I Could go on here, But the point is made. This is the big error of the Hebrew roots people, and I saw one of their famous speakers with Blatant error of saying we are saved by the Torah on their website, Which is to Blaspheme Jesus. The Law Points to and leads us to Jesus, But it is not Jesus, Just like a road sign leads to the city, but is not the city.   

 

 

"Christ is Not the Torah, He is the Word of God Made flesh. "

The Torah IS the word of God (Dt.1:3;5:37-23;etc). 

So Christ is the TORAH MADE FLESH!

So of COURSE Christ does not oppose Torah....he REQUIRES It! (Mt.5:19;23:2-3,23) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt. 28:19-20).

 

Gal. 3:24?  Of COURSE we are no longer under the schoolmaster function of Torah...

But that's NOT the only function of Torah!

So you haven't proven that Torah is not required for Christians.

 

Look at these ONGOING TORAH FUNCTIONS which you failed to address:

1. HOLINESS! Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  So, BE HOLY means OBEY TORAH (1Pe.1:16).

2. GOODNESS! Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  So, DO GOOD (Gal.6:10) means OBEY TORAH.

3. RIGHTEOUSNESS! Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  So, DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.2:29;3:7;Mt.5:20) means OBEY TORAH, or else you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

4. SPIRITUAL!  Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  So, SEEK AND PURSUE the SPIRITUAL (1Cor.14:1) entails OBEYING TORAH.

5. Torah defines sin (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).  So, STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH.

6. The New Covenant inaugurated in Christ's blood (Lk.22:20) is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33), so of COURSE we should obey the very Torah, because TORAH is foundational to the New Covenant in which we partake.

7. FAITHFULNESS!  The SPIRIT!  Torah-obedience is a fruit of the spirit (FAITH)!  Because the FRUIT includes FAITH, and Torah is of FAITH (Mt.23:23;Dt.18:15;32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138), so Paul's requirement of FAITH (Gal.3:11) is a requirement of FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE.  Again, Paul says that TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14) is the very word of faith he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).  Again, we see the SPIRIT leads us to obey all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27).  Again, we see the Spirit testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16).  Again, we see the Spirit is opposed to the flesh (Rom.8:13); and the flesh is opposed to Torah-obedience (Rom.8:7); so the Spirit is opposed to Torah-disobedience; so we must obey Torah in the Spirit!

8. JUSTIFICATION!  Those who do the Torah will be JUSTIFIED (Rom.2:13).

9. LOVE!  Those who LOVE will obey TORAH (1Jn.5:3).  Jesus agrees (applying Dt. 6 to you in Mt. 22:37); and Dt. 6 (in CONTEXT!) confirms that love for God is expressed through obedience to ALL Torah (Dt.6:25).

10. PEACE!  Those who LOVE (not disobey!) Torah will have PEACE (Ps.119:165).  Paul applies the Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

11. JOY!  We should REJOICE in Torah (not disobey it!)  (Ps.119:162).  Paul applies the Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

12. TRUTH!  We should REJOICE in truth (1Cor.13:6), not disobey it!  Torah is TRUTH (Ps.119:142).  So REJOICE in Torah!  Don't disobey it!

13.  SHADOW!  The shadow IS (present tense) an ONGOING function (PRESENT tense in Col.2:17;Heb.10:1).  We you see a tree....behold!  The shadow is STILL THERE!

 

I think that's good enough for now.

Please STOP opposing the ongoing Torah functions.

 

"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Luke 16:16) "

Jesus never said that the law DISCONTINUED at the "time the kingdom of God" was preached.

Rather, Jesus merely said that the kingdom of God began to be preached starting with the time of John.

So you haven't proven your (apparent) claim that Torah does not apply to Christians.

AND, Jesus applies ALL Torah (Mt.5:19;23:2-3,23,34) to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20)....so OF COURSE Torah applies to Christians!

 

"The Torah is meant to Lead us to the cross, and Christ on our knees. But the Torah is not Jesus."

Of COURSE Jesus is Torah-made-flesh (Jn.1:14).  The word of God INCLUDES Torah (Dt.1:3;5:37-22).

 

"...but the Torah points to Jesus."

And JESUS points us straight back to TORAH! (Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28;etc.)

It's BOTH!

Because JESUS personifies the SAME SUBSTANCE AS TORAH! (Jn.1:14)

 

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Romans 8:3) What the Torah could not Do, Christ could do, and that is change the Heart of Man from the inside out. So if the Jesus is the Torah he is weak through the flesh. Which means he is not the Torah."

Of COURSE law does not save without faith.  Agreed!

I never said Jesus represents TORAH WITHOUT FAITH...

Jesus represents TORAH....which is of FAITH (Mt.23:23).

So you're WRONG to say: "If Jesus is the Torah he is weak through the flesh".

After all, Paul (Rom.8) is critiquing law WITHOUT FAITH....

Paul NEVER opposes LAW+FAITH.

Paul REQUIRES LAW+FAITH (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8; citing Hab.2:4 at Gal.3:11; citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.26-27; Rom.2:13 + Rom.5:1;etc)

And that VERY CHAPTER (Romans 8) PROVES we should OBEY TORAH!

Remember?

The SPIRIT opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13); the flesh opposes Torah-obedience (Rom.8:7); so the SPIRIT opposes TORAH-disobedience; so the SPIRIT leads us to OBEY TORAH!

Thus, your anti-Torah interpretation of Rom. 8:3 is IMMEDIATELY contradicted by these other Pauline considerations (contained even in the SAME chapter you quoted!)

 

 

"This is the big error of the Hebrew roots people"

There is no unified "Hebrew roots people".....rather, it's a collection of diverse viewpoints, SOME of which are true, and SOME of which are crazy!

Of COURSE satan is actively involved in seeking to DISCREDIT and CONFUSE others regarding the Spirit-led return to truly authentic Torah-obedient Biblical faith, as required by Jesus (Mt.5:19) and the Apostles (Mt.23:34;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3;etc.)

So be careful!

 

AND, the big error of the anti-Torah people is that they IGNORE and OPPOSE the substance contained within this very post.

 

"I saw one of their famous speakers with Blatant error of saying we are saved by the Torah on their website"

Of COURSE we are not justified by law without faith (Gal.5:4-5).

But we ARE justified by law (Rom.2:13) + Faith (Gal.5:1), TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (Jas.2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

And Faith is of TORAH (Mt.23:23).

That's why Jesus says that Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk.10:25-28)...because if you obey all Torah, then you'll have faith in the Messiah (Dt.18:15) who requires faith in the Messiah (Jn.3:16) AND He requires obedience to ALL Torah (Mt.5:19).

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"But it is not Jesus"

SAME substance (Jn.1:14;Col.2:17)....

Thus Christ REQUIRES Torah (Mt.5:19).....

Christ does not oppose Himself!

 

blessings...

 

Edited by BibleGuy
typo
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17 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

So you haven't proven that Torah is not required for Christians.

Torah= Sin and death. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Romans 8:2-3)

The Torah leads you to Christ and the cross. In saying Jesus is the Torah, you are saying that he is merely a schoolmaster, and He is weak and cannot do, Which is to Blaspheme Jesus Christ. Are you comfortable with doing this? 

Jesus is Not the Torah. And the Torah is Not your Savior. Your savior is a Person, Jesus Christ, God incarnate. All the Torah does is point to Christ. You are worshipping the street sign and not the one the sign is pointing to.

28 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:39)

As you can see the Law is incapable of justification, only condemnation. We are justified by faith alone through grace alone...For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.(Eph 2:8-9)

As You can see in the following verses, Israel who had the Torah were not saved. 

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.(Rom. 10:1-4)

When We have faith in Christ Jesus, We now have the Law of the Spirit of Life, which has replaced the Law of Sin and death, the Old covenant had the Law of sin and death, The Law of the Spirit of Life produces the fruit of the Spirit which the Law of Sin and death could not do. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:22-24)

So Go right ahead and walk by the Torah (The law of Sin and death), I will walk by the Law of the Spirit of Life, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, and By his righteousness imputed upon me. 

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