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CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE vs. JEWISH TRADITION


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3 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

And how do you know that every part of "the law" (the 5 books) will remain exactly the same in the age to come?  Is it not possible that some of those commands were given for that time, in that Ancient Middle Eastern culture, for people of a certain level of moral maturity?

You've only been focused on the animal sacrifices, but there were many other commands. 

Only circumcised males could serve as priests.  (Under the "New Covenant" "there is neither male nor female", and ALL THOSE raised first will become "priests of God and of Christ".)  

Also many of the civic laws or war commands seem rather cruel or arcane today, though in that culture, at that time, they made sense.

Kill every Amalekite.  OR  "Kill everything that breathes." 

You are not to trim the "edges of your beard".  (Tell me BibleGuy.  Do you have a full beard?)

Any childless widow has to marry her brother-in-law to keep property in the family.

Any woman on her menses must be segregated away from other people.  (Do you have a separate room for menstruating females?)

A women who could not cry out loud enough to be heard while being raped must marry her rapist.  He could never divorce her.

A woman could not divorce a man. 

Female war captives could be kept as slaves or forced to marry their captors. 

Non-Hebrew slaves could be kept forever and be passed down as "property".    NOTE:  In the South, many ministers preached slavery from the OT. 

People with skin conditions must be examined by priests and possibly segregated after examination.

Etc Etc Etc

 

I'm just wondering.  Were there some commands given by "the LORD" through Moses, that were given for that ancient culture, that would NOT be considered applicable to our time? 

And is it not possible that the nature of "sacrifices" has "been changed" along with "the priesthood"?

Hi Resurrection Priest!  Thanks for writing....

 

"And how do you know that every part of "the law" (the 5 books) will remain exactly the same in the age to come?"

I don't place GENESIS in the written Torah of Moses. 

I suspect the material in GENESIS long pre-dates Moses.

So, I generally view "the law" as Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy (as in "the written Torah of Moses", 1Ki.2:3).

I rather doubt Moses is the original author of all the material in Genesis.

I don't see the book of Genesis referenced as "Torah" in Scripture....

 

But, Dt. 30:8 has us again obeying (in the future, when our diaspora ends) ALL THE SAME commands of Torah as were commanded at that time.

So, I actually believe Dt. 30:8.  That's why I'm thinking that we'll again obey 100% of all Torah at that time.

 

"Is it not possible that some of those commands were given for that time, in that Ancient Middle Eastern culture, for people of a certain level of moral maturity?"

Given Dt. 30:8, it appears that cultural level of moral maturity is NOT pertinent.

 

"Under the "New Covenant" "there is neither male nor female"

Of course that's not true.  I'm a male.  And, WOMEN still exist too (1Ti.5:16).

 

"ALL THOSE raised first will become "priests of God and of Christ"

I rather doubt we are ALL going to be priests....

Remember?

The priests are limited to the descendants of Zadok (Eze.40:46;43:19;44:15;48:11)....I rather doubt that EVERYBODY who is "raised first" will be the seed of Zadok.

 

"Also many of the civic laws or war commands seem rather cruel or arcane today, though in that culture, at that time, they made sense."

Torah commands seem good to me.  After all, Torah is good (Rom.7:12).

And, the SAME TORAH is promised for 1000 generations....(Dt. 7:9)....that's a good 40,000 years or so.....and we're only some 3500 years into it....we've got a LONG way to go!

After all, "cruel" or "arcane" is just an opinion....I'll go with the facts of Scripture.

So, it looks like the SAME TORAH will be in force for LONG into the future.

 

"Kill every Amalekite. "

What's wrong with that?

God has good reasons for His actions, whether you understand them or not.

 

"Kill everything that breathes."

What's wrong with that?

Especially given corruption of genetics via fallen angel (or nephilim) activity, it's VERY GOOD to kill everything that breathes in such contexts.

And again, God has good reasons for His actions, whether you understand them or not.

 

"You are not to trim the "edges of your beard".  "

I don't think TRIM is a good translation of " שָׁחַת ".

And, I don't think beards are even explicitly commanded for all men....rather, IF you have a beard, then don't mistreat it as Torah tells us not to mistreat it.

 

"Tell me BibleGuy.  Do you have a full beard?"

Yes, but I don't think Torah even requires beards for all men at all times...


" Do you have a separate room for menstruating females? "

Separate room?  Don't see that required in Torah.

Lev. 12 applies in the context in which a priest is available (Lev.12:6)...which is not the case in diaspora.

Lev. 15 applies in the context in which "My tabernacle is among them" (Lev.15:31)....that's not the case in diaspora.

The specifics in Lev. 18 appear observable in diaspora.

And Lev. 20:18 does not require a separate room either.

 

"NOTE:  In the South, many ministers preached slavery from the OT. "

Biblical slavery has many good elements....CORRUPTED slavery, though, is BAD.

 

"Were there some commands given by "the LORD" through Moses, that were given for that ancient culture, that would NOT be considered applicable to our time?"

Yes, I've discovered that Ex.12:43 is limited to the local context of that time....because Is. 56 PERMITS foreigners to partake in the Covenant (and, thus, Pesach).

But hey, 99% of the Torah commands don't begin until Ex.20, after which point they come out like a flood.

So, the section in Ex.12 to Ex. 13 evidently has some unique-to-that-immediate-context instructions.

 

"And is it not possible that the nature of "sacrifices" has "been changed" along with "the priesthood"?"

I suspect the FALSE MESSIAH will want you to think so! (Mt.24:24)

Remember?  The anti-christ plays a role IN THE TEMPLE (2Th.2:4;Mt.24:15), and he will evidently STOP THE SACRIFICES (Da.9:27)....THE VERY THING YOU KEEP ARGUING FOR!

So, this is no trivial matter.

ALL Torah will again be obeyed (Dt.30:1-8).

Jesus Christ comes to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices (Mal.3:4).

Anti-Christ comes to STOP Levitical sacrifices (Da 9:27).

Let's make sure we're working for the right team!

 

Did you get that?

OPPOSITION TO LEVITICAL SACRIFICES IS ESSENTIAL TO THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION (Da.9:27).

Let's not argue for the same theology that the anti-Christ will also evidently advocate.

 

Let's work to RESTORE what Jesus wants to RESTORE (Mal.3:4).

Jesus DESIRES sacrifices for people of all nations (citing Is.56:7 at Mk.11:17).

Jesus COMMANDS sacrifices (Mt.5:24).

Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20), NO EXCEPTIONS for sacrifices.

Levitical sacrifices shall return (Dt.30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.6;Zec.14).

Jesus upholds the Psalms as law (Jn.10); Psalms require proper sacrifices (Ps.4:5;51:19).  Paul applies these sacrifice-laden Psalms to you too (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

 

After all, we are Israelites (Heb.8:8).

No believers are excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12).

We Israelites obey Torah (Mal.4:4).

 

blessings...

 

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On 12/9/2019 at 6:25 PM, Behold said:

Most of what you wrote is some of the most cultish nonsense ive heard professed by a "master of theology", POV.

Let see what you can't stand.    Its quite a list.   You can't stand the Trinity.  You can't stand Communion.   You say hell does not exist.

Here is what i can say for certain, based on just a few examples i listed.  Whatever your "masters of theology" is, it is not connected to the New Testament.

I could give you credit if you were talking about why a church steeple comes to a point.  Or if you were climbing walls about "Easter" Oester", etc... but you are far far past the fringe.

Amazing to hear that "Christian communion", which is symbolic of the body and blood of Christ, that HE Himself instituted in the upper room, that ive been in....... amazing to hear you say this is pagan trash.

The last time i heard such a personal attack on Christ and His Blood was to read some of the Catholic Doctrine that teach that "if any preach that by Christ's Atonement ALONE, salvation is attained, then let this teacher and this teaching be cursed of God."

Are the mods letting you stay here?

I guess i can wonder about that also.

You are all over the map with your protestations - mostly out of bounds of the lines I've drawn.    But you must justify your own ignorance and so I'm not surprised to read your twisted version of my writing.

To be clear I didn't say I couldn't stand the Trinity.  I defined its invention by means of history.  Look it up on your own.  The NT isn't very definitive regarding the Trinity at all.  Constantine was instrumental in defining the current doctrine of the Trinity and insisted upon its inclusion in Christian doctrine.   In that sense, current definition isn't Biblical.   It's Roman.  Look it up.  It isn't me.

I didn't oppose Communion either.  I did say that its misinterpreted.  

The Last Supper wasn't a typical evening meal.  It was a seder.  Do you know what a seder is?  Look it up.  A seder is observed during one season each year - Pesacah.   Bread and wine (REAL alcoholic wine, btw - not pasteurized grape juice [*] ) are part of the seder.   When the ceremonial meal came to partaking of the bread and wine, Jesus redefined the meaning of those parts.   Jesus didn't institute communion or the seder.  He observed it and explained it.  Christians who are full of their own doctrine do not realize the importance and meaning of the words they read.  

The Roman Catholic church seized on this part of the ceremony and institutionalized it.  They denied references to Liberty and Freedom and converted a simple meal shared among members of a family.  The church restricted it to dispensation by ordained priests only and participation in a Christianized ceremony only.  That, dear fellow, is history and Christian dogma - not Biblical.  Look it up.  It isn't me.

I have not attacked the efficacy of the blood of Christ in any way.  Unfortunately you have obfuscated the issue to your own advantage.  Most Christians use the term and phrase as a religious slogan or buzz word and do not understand the power and meaning behind the blood of Christ.   Many do not even understand why Jesus went to the cross.   I pity your lack of vision.

Finally the doctrine of hell is an invention of the church.  The Bible doesn't support the myth at all.  

There is no such thing as hell.

What happens when a man dies? According to the Tanakh (Old Testament) sheol, or the grave, is the end of a man's life.  That's it and that's all.  The OT is not well defined about it at all.  There is a hint of resurrection, which was expanded upon by the pharisees, but in fact all the expansion on the subject happens in the NT.  No part of a human survives physical death.   Let's take a closer look at the history of the myth and then see what the Bible says about it.

Ancient Egypt developed the first idea of an afterlife and incorporated it into their own religion and tombs.   The Greeks followed the idea and expanded upon it with their own mythology and pantheon of gods as did the Romans who got most of their pagan pantheon from the Greeks.  Christendom adopted the Roman ideology and made it part of its own ideology.  St. Augustine is credited as being one of the first major theologians to define the Christian fantasy of the afterlife.  During the middle ages the doctrine was popularized by secular writers such as Dante Aligheri.  The ironic thing about Dante's DIVINE COMEDY is that Dante intended the entire work to be a satire on secular life and politics.  The work became quite popular and as people often do - believed it when in fact it wasn't true at all.   The work is in three sections of which INFERNO is taken literally by most as being an absolute description of hell.   Even George Lucas adapted one scene from INFERNO in Star Wars episode six.   It's just that popular.  Myth - not Biblical fact.

The Bible says man is mortal.   The nature of man is to die.

"My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal" - Genesis 6:3a

"Are my days not few? Leave me that I may have a little comfort before I go

- never to return -

to a land of darkness and gloom, of darkness deep shadow and disorder, where even light is like darkness." - Job 10:21-22

Job was describing SHEOL and the consequent burial and dissolution of the body in the darkness of the grave hidden away from the light of day.  It's rather poetic if you consider the words chosen to describe it.

ONLY GOD HAS IMMORTAL LIFE.

"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light." - 1 Timothy 6:16

The subject of hell naturally gravitates to final judgment where God reveals the ultimate destiny of all mankind.  Sinners are temporarily resurrected from death so as to face their judgment - total and absolute destruction, deletion and annihilation.   The Bible never describes eternal torment as a punishment.  God kills.  God does not torture.  Jesus does not manage a torture chamber in the bowels of the earth.......but He does if you believe the Christian myth of hell.

Biblical descriptions of the method of destruction/judgment suggest the method endures, but that which is consigned to it is not.   When a thing is burned it is destroyed permanently.   There is no place in heaven or on earth where a thing is burned continually.  Fire consumes.  

As a personal note: if you find an occurrence in nature where a thing may be burned but not consumed please let me know.  I'd like to try it in my car.

The really wonderful thing about Our Lord is that He has chosen to pass HIS immortal life on to humans - a class of created being that by and of its nature is consigned to the same destiny as any plant or animal of earth.  Is this not the grandest thing anyone has ever heard?  Over the centuries millions have agreed and came to Christ to be saved.  Mostly they aren't concerned about church myths.  They just want to live.   As do I.

The caveat to eternal life is that one must accept God's gift.   It isn't automatic and it isn't granted to everyone.   It is indeed offered to everyone, but most reject it.  (John 3:19 & Matthew 7:13)

As to being persuaded of cultish ideas, I accept your accusation.  According to the Bible, early believers were also accused of the same thing.   Apparently I am in good company.

What company do you follow if not the original - cult?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[*] American evangelicals, and some Messianic Jews, are fond of declaring Jesus never drank alcoholic wine.   He did, though.  When one squeezes the juice out of grapes the natural process of fermentation begins.  It is not rot, as some insist, but a chemical reaction that converts natural sugars in the grape to alcohol.

The technology to denature the fruit of the vine did not exist until the mid-19th century, when it was invented by a fellow named Louis Pasteur.  Look it up.

The doctrine of using denatured grape juice in communion is an American fetish and a result of the 19th century Temperance Movement and the Prohibition Era of the early 20th century.  It is entirely political in nature and has nothing at all to do with the Bible. 

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On 12/9/2019 at 2:56 PM, BibleGuy said:

"St. Paul wrote it was obsolete and is passing away.... (Hebrews 8:13)"

Why assume Paul wrote Hebrews?

 

 

Authorship of the book of Hebrews has been in contention for millennia.  It should be noted, however, that those who examine the literary style on its own merits generally believe it is consistent with the writing style of other known Pauline epistles.  Those who disagree with its authorship cite evidence that Paul did not write Hebrews.  This contrary evidence is itself questionable because cited 'evidence' is only the opinion of others who also doubt Paul's authorship.

Do you agree with scoffers or do you agree with God's Word?

"I did not come to abolish the LAW.  I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

You would throw out the baby with the bath water - as do most evangelicals when they consider the LAW.

Which part of the LAW did Jesus come to fulfill?  Do you know?  Why did He come into the world?  hint: 1 Timothy 1:15

Jesus came into the world to die for our sins.  

Hence the LAW, which required a death in payment for sin, is fulfilled by Christ.

In Exodus and Leviticus, animal sacrifice was specified to TEMPORARILY satisfy the sacrifice for sin.  The problem with this exercise is that animals, like humans, are mortal.  As a result, animal sacrifices had to be performed continually and constantly.   See the book of Hebrews, Exodus and Leviticus as well as all four gospels and the book of Revelation.

Jesus is the passover lamb - killed for our benefit to absolve us of guilt and sin before God.

When Paul wrote Hebrews 8:13 the temple still existed.  It hadn't been pulled down by the Romans and animal sacrifices were still being performed - unnecessarily I may add.

This is why Paul wrote that the LAW (regarding animal sacrifice) was obsolete.   Can you read also that Paul wrote that it was passing away?   This is internal evidence that Paul's words were put to paper sometime prior to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem (circa 70AD)

Jesus' sacrifice fulfills the LAW completely because of His immortal nature.  It is no longer necessary to appeal to God for a sacrifice for sin because Jesus did it one time for all time.

The blood of Jesus is immortal and perfect as opposed to the blood of animals, which is imperfect by its temporary nature.

Jesus fulfilled the LAW by dying.  He did NOT abolish it.  He fulfilled it with His own blood.   

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Why do you protest O man?   Do you not know that Jews are the oracle of God who have received heaven's good Word for salvation and good works?   Jews are a people separated by God for service to Him - so as to receive from heaven and dispense blessings to all men everywhere.  

Do you not know that God intends His blessings to be passed onto all the families of man?  (Genesis 12:3)   Do you not know that Gentiles are not required to follow Jewish tradition diet and ceremony?  Ancient Israel was a theocracy - subject to severe interpretations and execution of Jewish moral LAW.   Do you know what a theocracy is?  Look it up.

Why do the heathen rage against the LAW?  They wail because that part which DOES apply to all men defines sin and wickedness (10 commandments) and they do not like to see their own guilt before God.

Salvation begins in the LAW.  Without it no one can be saved.   The purpose of the LAW is to convict of sin and evoke repentance.  Repentance leads to salvation which leads to the gift of divine grace.  Grace in turn enables one to live according to the LAW so as to please God.  Grace is not a license to sin as many today believe.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

The LAW still stands.   Thank God for giving us His Torah (LAW).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

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On 12/8/2019 at 10:11 AM, frienduff thaylorde said:

Shall we sin that grace may abound .  GOD FORBID .  How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer in sin , therein .

If we follow Christ then the righteousness of the law would be fulfilled in us .   

The doing what is good , holy and righteous in the sight of GOD would be in us .

For He would dwell and does dwell in those who are HIS , whose faith is in CHRIST JESUS .

We would be DOING what is well pleasing IN HIS SIGHT and the law is NOT AGAINST THIS .

The law tells us what is right in the sight of GOD and what is evil in the sight of GOD .

Thus grace does not make VOID the law .  It establishes the law upon our hearts .

And we know that it is not the law that saved us ,  But JESUS WHO SAVED US and gives us the eyes to see and the ears to hear that which fulfills , and not that which transgresses .

Grace does not give us a license to sin . FOR WHOM we serve HIS we are .  Grace teaches us to deny that which is evil , the flesh , the lusts , that which is contrary to A HOLY GOD .

And it has us walking righteously , godly , soberly in this world . 

The  law itself pointed to JESUS .    As did the prophets .

We no longer have to do all those ritual sacrifices for sin or error . THE BLOOD of bulls and goats could not sprinkle clean the inner conscious , they held not the power

THE BLOOD of JESUS DOES .   

He has made his law honorable ,  JESUS came to save us from the lake of fire , by paying the price of our transgressions , To set us FREE FROM SIN

that we would no longer be a slave to its desire and be in its bondage . For the end of sin is death . And all will be delivered into the lake of fire who knew NOT CHRIST

and if they knew HIM , they would have known this power I speak about . If any man HAS not the SPIRIT of CHRIST he is none of his , and if we have THE SPIRIT

then the body is dead because of sin . 

There is power in the BLOOD , but it is a POWER that most know not .

By grace GOD draws us to the SON , to FAITH in HIM , and by THIS FAITH we then have access into the continual grace of GOD which changes the heart and mind

the whole inner being into a new man .     Where sin becomes exceeding sinful to us , where in our conscious even the whiff of evil has such a stench unto our nostrils .

That even the sight of evil shuts the eye to all appearance of what is evil .   THERE IS POWER in the BLOOD , only many know it not .

For many have sat under men and those men knew not the POWER of the LIFE SAVING and LIFE CHANGING BLOOD of CHRIST .

Many do not teach as did paul or james , Jude , or peter , OR above all CHRIST DID , when it comes to sin or error . THEY DONT DO IT .

Instead of teaching GO and sin no more ,  if anyone even repeats that phrase , they commonly say , OH WE cant stop sinning are you perfect .

Instead of saying as did paul ,   To let all who name the name of Christ depart from inquity ,   when its said , THEY say , OH GODS grace covers this

HE understands we cant stop sinning , or words to that effect . 

Instead of like paul , teaching to let not these things be named even ONCE among you ,   and when this is said , THEY come up with the same lines

as what I said above . YET paul and others NEVER gave this kind of instruction concerning sin and error and many today do .

For paul knew something that most today would say IS IMPOSSIBLE .  YET IT IS POSSIBLE .

And that is this ,   SIN WILL and DOES HARDEN A HEART and can and will surely destroy a lamb , it will harden its heart .

Paul knew and taught as JESUS had taught and as did the other apostels too .

Sin is deadly and we must fight the fight daily against the very evils of our own flesh ,  keeping the body subjected unto CHRIST

AND ,   if any does err ,  DO the pattern JESUS SET UP ,   CORRECT , warn , rebuke and do so quickly .

Its why my plea has been for all to abandon the many pulpits of men and return to bibles only .    IF we would be read and read continuously those letters

the holy scriptures , the wholesome words of JESUS ,   then our minds would have been built up and we would have remained sharp and alert against the fables of men .

And IF we are truly HIS , THEN HIS SPIRIT would have long put a love for TRUTH upon our hearts .

And lambs don't sit under strangers , no matter how well those strangers can deck themselves up TO LOOK LIKE LAMBS .

NOPE a lamb , BY grace , BY JESUS CHRIST ,  can whiff a wolf no matter how much wool is has put on , IT CAN WHIFF THEM .   JESUS IS with the sheep

and the Grace He gives to his own , is the same grace HIS OWN would share with others .   GET INTO BIBLES PEOPLE ,  its what the HOLY GHOST PUT ME IN

and its now what I , by grace , am doing for others . GO back into BIBLES Only everyone .  DO it now and let the pure words and holy reminders , COUPLED with the SPIRIT

cleanse the minds and hearts of the people .

 

You are quite right here.

Shall we sin that grace may abound?  God forbid.

Yet I have often heard grace preached on the grounds that it does indeed justify our pet sins fetishes and licentiousness.   

The LAW has become a four letter word among many Christians because they are being taught to disdain the LAW.

"We are saved by grace, not law," they say.   But they are using a twisted version of God's Word to justify their sin.

LAW is given to convict of sin.  Without it the process of redemption cannot begin in the heart of man.  Grace cannot abide in an old wineskin of sin, yet many today teach that very thing.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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12 minutes ago, choir loft said:

You are quite right here.

Shall we sin that grace may abound?  God forbid.

Yet I have often heard grace preached on the grounds that it does indeed justify our pet sins fetishes and licentiousness.   

The LAW has become a four letter word among many Christians because they are being taught to disdain the LAW.

"We are saved by grace, not law," they say.   But they are using a twisted version of God's Word to justify their sin.

LAW is given to convict of sin.  Without it the process of redemption cannot begin in the heart of man.  Grace cannot abide in an old wineskin of sin, yet many today teach that very thing.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Well here is me hollering to many from the choir loft and all places .

SHALL we continue in SIN ,  GOD FORBID .

WHO YOU SERVE IS WHOSE YOU ARE .

JESUS is not the minister of sin .   He came to set folks free FROM SIN , never to let them FEEL FREE while IN SIN .  

Let those words be sang the world round .

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2 hours ago, choir loft said:

Authorship of the book of Hebrews has been in contention for millennia.  It should be noted, however, that those who examine the literary style on its own merits generally believe it is consistent with the writing style of other known Pauline epistles.  Those who disagree with its authorship cite evidence that Paul did not write Hebrews.  This contrary evidence is itself questionable because cited 'evidence' is only the opinion of others who also doubt Paul's authorship.

Do you agree with scoffers or do you agree with God's Word?

"I did not come to abolish the LAW.  I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

You would throw out the baby with the bath water - as do most evangelicals when they consider the LAW.

Which part of the LAW did Jesus come to fulfill?  Do you know?  Why did He come into the world?  hint: 1 Timothy 1:15

Jesus came into the world to die for our sins.  

Hence the LAW, which required a death in payment for sin, is fulfilled by Christ.

In Exodus and Leviticus, animal sacrifice was specified to TEMPORARILY satisfy the sacrifice for sin.  The problem with this exercise is that animals, like humans, are mortal.  As a result, animal sacrifices had to be performed continually and constantly.   See the book of Hebrews, Exodus and Leviticus as well as all four gospels and the book of Revelation.

Jesus is the passover lamb - killed for our benefit to absolve us of guilt and sin before God.

When Paul wrote Hebrews 8:13 the temple still existed.  It hadn't been pulled down by the Romans and animal sacrifices were still being performed - unnecessarily I may add.

This is why Paul wrote that the LAW (regarding animal sacrifice) was obsolete.   Can you read also that Paul wrote that it was passing away?   This is internal evidence that Paul's words were put to paper sometime prior to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem (circa 70AD)

Jesus' sacrifice fulfills the LAW completely because of His immortal nature.  It is no longer necessary to appeal to God for a sacrifice for sin because Jesus did it one time for all time.

The blood of Jesus is immortal and perfect as opposed to the blood of animals, which is imperfect by its temporary nature.

Jesus fulfilled the LAW by dying.  He did NOT abolish it.  He fulfilled it with His own blood.   

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Why do you protest O man?   Do you not know that Jews are the oracle of God who have received heaven's good Word for salvation and good works?   Jews are a people separated by God for service to Him - so as to receive from heaven and dispense blessings to all men everywhere.  

Do you not know that God intends His blessings to be passed onto all the families of man?  (Genesis 12:3)   Do you not know that Gentiles are not required to follow Jewish tradition diet and ceremony?  Ancient Israel was a theocracy - subject to severe interpretations and execution of Jewish moral LAW.   Do you know what a theocracy is?  Look it up.

Why do the heathen rage against the LAW?  They wail because that part which DOES apply to all men defines sin and wickedness (10 commandments) and they do not like to see their own guilt before God.

Salvation begins in the LAW.  Without it no one can be saved.   The purpose of the LAW is to convict of sin and evoke repentance.  Repentance leads to salvation which leads to the gift of divine grace.  Grace in turn enables one to live according to the LAW so as to please God.  Grace is not a license to sin as many today believe.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

The LAW still stands.   Thank God for giving us His Torah (LAW).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

I'll try that again!

 

Why assume Paul wrote Hebrews?

 

Thanks!

 

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3 hours ago, choir loft said:

You are all over the map with your protestations - mostly out of bounds of the lines I've drawn.    But you must justify your own ignorance and so I'm not surprised to read your twisted version of my writing.

To be clear I didn't say I couldn't stand the Trinity.  I defined its invention by means of history.  Look it up on your own.  The NT isn't very definitive regarding the Trinity at all.  Constantine was instrumental in defining the current doctrine of the Trinity and insisted upon its inclusion in Christian doctrine.   In that sense, current definition isn't Biblical.   It's Roman.  Look it up.  It isn't me.

I didn't oppose Communion either.  I did say that its misinterpreted.  

The Last Supper wasn't a typical evening meal.  It was a seder.  Do you know what a seder is?  Look it up.  A seder is observed during one season each year - Pesacah.   Bread and wine (REAL alcoholic wine, btw - not pasteurized grape juice [*] ) are part of the seder.   When the ceremonial meal came to partaking of the bread and wine, Jesus redefined the meaning of those parts.   Jesus didn't institute communion or the seder.  He observed it and explained it.  Christians who are full of their own doctrine do not realize the importance and meaning of the words they read.  

The Roman Catholic church seized on this part of the ceremony and institutionalized it.  They denied references to Liberty and Freedom and converted a simple meal shared among members of a family.  The church restricted it to dispensation by ordained priests only and participation in a Christianized ceremony only.  That, dear fellow, is history and Christian dogma - not Biblical.  Look it up.  It isn't me.

I have not attacked the efficacy of the blood of Christ in any way.  Unfortunately you have obfuscated the issue to your own advantage.  Most Christians use the term and phrase as a religious slogan or buzz word and do not understand the power and meaning behind the blood of Christ.   Many do not even understand why Jesus went to the cross.   I pity your lack of vision.

Finally the doctrine of hell is an invention of the church.  The Bible doesn't support the myth at all.  

There is no such thing as hell.

What happens when a man dies? According to the Tanakh (Old Testament) sheol, or the grave, is the end of a man's life.  That's it and that's all.  The OT is not well defined about it at all.  There is a hint of resurrection, which was expanded upon by the pharisees, but in fact all the expansion on the subject happens in the NT.  No part of a human survives physical death.   Let's take a closer look at the history of the myth and then see what the Bible says about it.

Ancient Egypt developed the first idea of an afterlife and incorporated it into their own religion and tombs.   The Greeks followed the idea and expanded upon it with their own mythology and pantheon of gods as did the Romans who got most of their pagan pantheon from the Greeks.  Christendom adopted the Roman ideology and made it part of its own ideology.  St. Augustine is credited as being one of the first major theologians to define the Christian fantasy of the afterlife.  During the middle ages the doctrine was popularized by secular writers such as Dante Aligheri.  The ironic thing about Dante's DIVINE COMEDY is that Dante intended the entire work to be a satire on secular life and politics.  The work became quite popular and as people often do - believed it when in fact it wasn't true at all.   The work is in three sections of which INFERNO is taken literally by most as being an absolute description of hell.   Even George Lucas adapted one scene from INFERNO in Star Wars episode six.   It's just that popular.  Myth - not Biblical fact.

The Bible says man is mortal.   The nature of man is to die.

"My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal" - Genesis 6:3a

"Are my days not few? Leave me that I may have a little comfort before I go

- never to return -

to a land of darkness and gloom, of darkness deep shadow and disorder, where even light is like darkness." - Job 10:21-22

Job was describing SHEOL and the consequent burial and dissolution of the body in the darkness of the grave hidden away from the light of day.  It's rather poetic if you consider the words chosen to describe it.

ONLY GOD HAS IMMORTAL LIFE.

"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light." - 1 Timothy 6:16

The subject of hell naturally gravitates to final judgment where God reveals the ultimate destiny of all mankind.  Sinners are temporarily resurrected from death so as to face their judgment - total and absolute destruction, deletion and annihilation.   The Bible never describes eternal torment as a punishment.  God kills.  God does not torture.  Jesus does not manage a torture chamber in the bowels of the earth.......but He does if you believe the Christian myth of hell.

Biblical descriptions of the method of destruction/judgment suggest the method endures, but that which is consigned to it is not.   When a thing is burned it is destroyed permanently.   There is no place in heaven or on earth where a thing is burned continually.  Fire consumes.  

As a personal note: if you find an occurrence in nature where a thing may be burned but not consumed please let me know.  I'd like to try it in my car.

The really wonderful thing about Our Lord is that He has chosen to pass HIS immortal life on to humans - a class of created being that by and of its nature is consigned to the same destiny as any plant or animal of earth.  Is this not the grandest thing anyone has ever heard?  Over the centuries millions have agreed and came to Christ to be saved.  Mostly they aren't concerned about church myths.  They just want to live.   As do I.

The caveat to eternal life is that one must accept God's gift.   It isn't automatic and it isn't granted to everyone.   It is indeed offered to everyone, but most reject it.  (John 3:19 & Matthew 7:13)

As to being persuaded of cultish ideas, I accept your accusation.  According to the Bible, early believers were also accused of the same thing.   Apparently I am in good company.

What company do you follow if not the original - cult?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[*] American evangelicals, and some Messianic Jews, are fond of declaring Jesus never drank alcoholic wine.   He did, though.  When one squeezes the juice out of grapes the natural process of fermentation begins.  It is not rot, as some insist, but a chemical reaction that converts natural sugars in the grape to alcohol.

The technology to denature the fruit of the vine did not exist until the mid-19th century, when it was invented by a fellow named Louis Pasteur.  Look it up.

The doctrine of using denatured grape juice in communion is an American fetish and a result of the 19th century Temperance Movement and the Prohibition Era of the early 20th century.  It is entirely political in nature and has nothing at all to do with the Bible. 

"No part of a human survives physical death. "

To the contrary!

Moses SURVIVED: Mt.17:13.

Elijah SURVIVED: Mt.17:13.

Samuel SURVIVED: 1Sa.28:15.

Absent from the body IMPLIES present with the Lord (not dead in the ground!) 2Cor.5:8

God is the God of the LIVING (not the dead). Mt.22:32.

Thus Abraham SURVIVED (Mt.22:32;Lk.16:23).

Isaac SURVIVED (Mt.22:32).

Jacob SURVIVED (Mt.22:32).

The poor man SURVIVED (Lk.16:22).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I don’t care if the Book Of Hebrews was written by Pee Wee Herman....... “ ALL Scripture is GOD BREATHED”

Paul said The Law was “ USELESS”  in this present Age of Grace.....( Heb 7 ) 

Paul said that the Law was given so that “ sin might increase”

Paul said that the STRENGTH OF SIN was found in THE LAW

.........just a little perspective about your “ precious” Law.....

Paul said the Law was of value only if  you knew how to use it....It LEADS you to Salvation, by showing that you need Jesus—- it is NOT the MEANS of Salvation....only a person that is blinded by Satan and living in a Fool’s Paradise thinks that they can keep it......James said if you break one Law you are guilty of breaking them all......good luck with keeping the Law that even Peter said was a task neither the current Jews nor their Fathers could keep....How “ stiff- necked” does one have to be to reject the Grace and total forgiveness for Sins that God freely holds out as a gift to everyone that will “ come to Him” as an unclean man who needs a cleaning that only Jesus can provide . ( kudos for this picture of Salvation provided by Zola Levitt)

Edited by Blood Bought 1953
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All scripture and all those letters written were Holy Spirit led .

Sadly many have misinterpreted the letters and sound doctrine by means of devices of men .

Its a nightmare these days ,  but THE LAMBS will heed , feed only FROM JESUS .

Men will love what pleases man  , but lambs will feed only from JESUS hand . 

That's about all I can say for now .   

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8 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

I don’t care if the Book Of Hebrews was written by Pee Wee Herman....... “ ALL Scripture is GOD BREATHED”

Paul said The Law was “ USELESS”  in this present Age of Grace.....( Heb 7 ) 

Paul said that the Law was given so that “ sin might increase”

Paul said that the STRENGTH OF SIN was found in THE LAW

.........just a little perspective about your “ precious” Law.....

Paul said the Law was of value only if  you knew how to use it....

"I don’t care if the Book Of Hebrews was written by Pee Wee Herman....... “ ALL Scripture is GOD BREATHED”"

I do.....Pee Wee Herman was EVIL.

 

"Paul said The Law was “ USELESS”  in this present Age of Grace.....( Heb 7 ) "

You haven't proven Paul wrote Heb. 7.

And, of COURSE Torah is useless to TAKE AWAY sins....Torah sacrifices merely COVER/ATONE for sins.

Agreed!

But Heb. 7 says nothing about "this present Age of Grace".

You just made that up!

Grace is in Ex.33:13....and the proper response to Grace is to seek TORAH (i.e., God's ways, Ex.33:13+1Ki.2:3).

GRACE extends to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34); HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13).

 

"Paul said that the Law was given so that “ sin might increase”"

Sure....for those without faith. Agreed!

 

"Paul said that the STRENGTH OF SIN was found in THE LAW"

Good point!  So STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).

 

".........just a little perspective about your “ precious” Law....."

Is GOODNESS not precious? (Rom.7:12)

Is HOLINESS not precious? (Rom.7:12)

Is RIGHTEOUSNESS not precious? (Rom.7;12)

Is FAITHFULNESS not precious? (Mt.23:23)

Is JUSTICE not precious? (Mt.23:23)

Is MERCY not precious? (Mt.23:23)

Is TRUTH not precious? (Ps.119:142)

Is LOVE not precious? (1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25;Jn.14:15+Mt.5:19)

Is SPIRITUALITY not precious? (Rom.7:14)

Is the object of our SERVICE not precious? (Rom.7:25)

Is the testimony of the SPIRIT not precious? (Heb.10:15-16)

Is the BREAD OF LIFE not precious? (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3)

Is JOY not precious? (Ps.119:162)

Is PEACE not precious? (Ps.119:165)

Is the MESSIAH not precious? (Jn.1:14)

Is the BLOOD which inaugurates the New Covenant in TORAH not precious? (Lk.22:20;Jer.31:33)

 

Of COURSE it's precious!

Glad we agree now.

 

"Paul said the Law was of value only if  you knew how to use it...."

GOOD POINT!

Let's use ALL TORAH to REBUKE you (2Ti.3:16).

To CORRECT you (2Ti.3:16).

To TRAIN you (2Ti.3:16).

To TEACH you (2Ti.3:16) in righteousness.

 

Encouraging words.

blessings...

 

  • Oy Vey! 1
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