Church sans Tribulation (Reposted and reedited from 2013 for new viewers)

[wingnut-]

19 minutes ago, Alive said:

I am not convinced that the great tribulation will be global, either. I believe there is room for seeing it local to Israel and the surrounding area.

 

Revelation 13: 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

 

13 minutes ago, Alive said:

Praise the Lord--no worries.

I would say, however, that the saints in a local expression of the body of Christ do recognize an anointing. The Spirit within hears the Spirit and there is a sense of harmony. I have described this as being much like tuning a guitar. When one string is brought to the same note as another, there is a very pleasant identifiable 'likeness'.

The Spirit bears witness to the Spirit that it is of God. Senses exercised. This takes time, but is a very real thing.

This is not limited to teaching or prophecy, but any one might speak in a gathering and it be the Lord energizing that 'word'.

When two or more are gathered.....He promised--no He emphatically declared that He is there. The question becomes; do we believe what we believe?

 

I agree, I have sat in many sermons over the years and felt the power of the Spirit in many messages, as well as on occasions in smaller, more personal settings.  However, I have heard other things from these same individuals that were instantly rejected by the Holy Spirit in me because they were contrary to scripture, and not from God.

 

God bless

[Alive]

And of course it is possible that those scriptures speak of a literal entire earth and all peoples--however there are many places where such language is used and it clearly wasn't.

This is why I say that I am not entirely convinced.

[wingnut-]

34 minutes ago, Alive said:

however there are many places where such language is used and it clearly wasn't.

 

Not really clear on what you mean here, can you give an example?

[Alive]

Sure----reading the historical record of Israel; an example is when it says that every man woman and child was killed and they weren't.

Also, if you do a word search on whole earth--you will see the same thing.

Scripture commonly uses a language tool that says a totality in order to make a point of many or much.

It is like that all through scripture.

 

[Diaste]

Greetings in Christ!

We are all of the same family and in that Spirit let's ponder a few things that may be forgotten in all this.

 

On 10/18/2019 at 4:37 PM, WordSword said:

Church sans Tribulation (Reposted and reedited from 2013 for new viewers)

 

Not only is the Church a product of this specific age with no relation whatever to any other age, but each believer is perfectly accepted now and forever before God on the ground of his position in Christ, and, being saved out of this world, he is no more of this world than Christ is of this world (Jhn 15:18, 19; 17:14, 16).

Don't know for sure where this arises but it's not right. Thus it is a major false premise when examining the Return of Jesus and the gathering of the saints.

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise." - Gal 3

"And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." - I Cor 10

 

On 10/18/2019 at 4:37 PM, WordSword said:

The coming tribulation (not even remotely related to Acts 14:22, noting the words “coming tribulation”—NC) is the judgement of this world. Israel has her part in it since, being not yet saved (Rom 11:26), she is of the world. The believer, being what he is in Christ, has no more a rightful place in this world’s judgements than Christ Himself or any unfallen angel. Back of the theories that the Church (Body of Christ) will enter or pass through the tribulation is the Arminian heresy that the believer contributes something to his own acceptance before God, and, having failed to some extent is this responsibility, he will be purged by the suffering which the tribulation affords.

Mainly rhetoric and opinion. This statement seeks to shame as though a vast group is convinced self abuse gains them heavenly access, the entire group comprised of opposition to the notion advanced by this author.

It appears to me if one fears judgement then one also fears their own personal conduct. But again, much seems to be forgotten by this author. Here is an excerpt from a far greater authority than the author under examination:

 "And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." - Heb 12

As we can see chastisement is a necessary step toward holiness. Without this we are bastards, do not partake in holiness, will not live and the yield of peace and righteousness and are not loved.

 

 

On 10/18/2019 at 4:37 PM, WordSword said:

There is a line of truth which concerns the believer’s personal faithfulness; but this is consummated before Christ at His judgment seat in heaven. As for any condemnation, or other judgment, the Christian is wholly delivered forever on the most righteous ground that a Substitute bore the condemnation and judgment and has provided a perfect standing before God. It is established by Scripture that the believer is delivered from all condemning judgments (John 3:18; 5:24; Rom 5:1; 8:1, 33, 34; 1 Cor 11:31, 32).

Yes. But that does not hold true for a good spanking. Here the author conflates final judgement with punishment or chastisement. They are not the same.

On 10/18/2019 at 4:37 PM, WordSword said:

In general, those who contend that the Church will experience the tribulation assert that all believers—spiritual and unspiritual (carnal babes-in-Christ - 1Co 3:1, unlearned but not “carnally minded” because that is “death” Rom 8:6—NC) will enter that period of suffering, though there are those believing in a partial rapture who assert that the Church will be divided and the spiritual element, which always includes those who advance this notion, will go directly to heaven, while the unspiritual will suffer for their sins in the tribulation. 

This constitutes a Protestant purgatory. The answer to all such conceptions is the recognition of the truth that, when members of this sinful race go to heaven, it is not on the ground of their own merit, but only through the merit of Christ. It is to be remembered that each believer is already perfectly justified forever (Rom 5:1; 8:30, 33, 34; Heb 10:14), and this wholly within the range of divine justice (Rom 3:26). Thus the contention that the Church will enter or pass through the tribulation becomes and insult to, and unbelief towards (though ignorantly—NC) the measureless grace of God in His Beloved Son.

 

More opinionated conclusions. It's just a shaming tactic born of fear. Nobody is saying we are not justified forever. However there is a great deal of 'carnal mindedness' in the body. One only has to look at televangelists and do a cursory examination of their preaching to know this, never mind the luxury in which they bask as they demand tithes and push prosperity doctrine, living off the hard earned resources of their flock. 

I would imagine a Holy God will have something to say about all this in the coming years.

Better that the errant members be punished and get to heaven than receive no chastisement while carrying about spots and blemishes in our body and spirit.

 

On 10/18/2019 at 4:37 PM, WordSword said:

Those who entertain the idea that the Church experiences the great tribulation must reckon with the fact that of upwards of seventy-five generations (2,250 years, given a generation is about 30 years—NC) who comprise that company, all but the present generation have entered Glory without the supposed benefits of that purging experience. Why, then, should the last generation suffer that from which the vast host have been spared?

Partly this assumes every one who died as supposedly 'christian' has entered glory. There  would be no need for resurrection from the dead then, would there? 

This also assumes that contemporaries in Christ undergo no 'purging experience'. What is to be said to the 100,000 that are killed every year for the name of Jesus and for the testimony of Christ, which they hold? Where is their 'pretrib rapture'?

On 10/18/2019 at 4:37 PM, WordSword said:

On this point a specious argument has been advanced, namely, that as the Church has suffered martyrdom in certain periods of her history she may be expected to suffer thus again at the end of her age; but back of this claim is the failure to recognize that past sufferings were due to the attack of wicked men upon the Church, while the great tribulation is God’s judgment upon wicked men. Wholly justified believers have no place among evil men who are destined to eternal doom.

- L S Chafer (1871-1952)

Well this just misses all the punishment God sent on the seed of Abraham during the wandering in the desert. This ignores in toto Hebrews 12. And what of this?

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 1And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. " - Rev 7

So then if the righteous are gone and great tribulation is only judgment on wicked mankind, how did these come through great tribulation? The wicked do not get to heaven.

 

 

[angels4u]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

Yup--if pinned down--I agree. It seems to me that what Paul described happens when the Lord returns to set up His 1000 year reign.

I am not convinced that the great tribulation will be global, either. I believe there is room for seeing it local to Israel and the surrounding area.

It will effect the whole world, Wing  gave you scripture to show what the Bible is saying about it, but don’t forget the tribulation is mostly for Israel , to get them back to God and to believe that Jesus came already 2000 years ago,they all will believe in Him when He comes back on the end of the tribulation and the remnant who are still living will enter with Jesus into the Millennial,is that what you believe also?

[Alive]

39 minutes ago, angels4u said:

It will effect the whole world, Wing  gave you scripture to show what the Bible is saying about it, but don’t forget the tribulation is mostly for Israel , to get them back to God and to believe that Jesus came already 2000 years ago,they all will believe in Him when He comes back on the end of the tribulation and the remnant who are still living will enter with Jesus into the Millennial,is that what you believe also?

As to the first, I responded with my reasons for thinking it is possible.

As to the second part--your questions---yes I do. I think the scriptures are unambiguously clear on those things.

Some folks think differently. I wouldn't argue the points, but I do want to hear what other believers are thinking, as I think, on such things an open mind is a good thing. You may notice that I wasn't emphatic. When I am sure of a thing, I will state it emphatically.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Alive

[angels4u]

6 minutes ago, Alive said:

As to the first, I responded with my reasons for thinking it is possible.

As to the second part--your questions---yes I do I think the scriptures are unambiguously clear on those things.

Some folks think differently. I wouldn't argue the points, but I do want to hear what other believers are thinking, as I think, on such things an open mind is a good thing. You may notice that I wasn't emphatic. When I am sure of a thing, I will state it emphatically.

I agree that it’s interesting to see what other people believe , for me , I just go with the Bible and listen to some favourite speakers,do you have speakers you like to listen to on this topic?

[Alive]

20 minutes ago, angels4u said:

I agree that it’s interesting to see what other people believe , for me , I just go with the Bible and listen to some favourite speakers,do you have speakers you like to listen to on this topic?

No I don't. Actually, the last time I heard anyone speak on such things was a bunch of years ago.

It comes up once in a while, as a matter of course. As I have said in another post, for the Lord's own reasons, its not something that I have sought after for a very long time.

[WordSword]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Don't know for sure where this arises but it's not right. Thus it is a major false premise when examining the Return of Jesus and the gathering of the saints.

I usually avoid debating the book of Revelation due to its degree of varying opinions and understanding, as some see it in the preterist's  view, some the historicist's view, and some the futurist's view. Myself, I'm more of the latter view in which the article is conceived. I also have no doubt that there will always be much varying in understand this Book between Christians.

God bless!