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JoeCanada

The Trouble with Tribulation

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3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The Trouble with Tribulation

 

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation…” (2 Corinthians 1:3,4a)

 Both our Lord and the Apostles warned us in Scripture that times of persecution would come upon the people of God. They warned us that tribulation would follow genuine devotion to Christ. Throughout the centuries the authentic followers of Jesus Christ have suffered greatly for their faith. They have been slandered, mocked, beaten, crucified, stoned, ravaged by wild beasts, tortured on the rack, sold into slavery, burned at the stake, and had their heads cut off for the sake of the true Gospel. Even today, all around the world, Christians are suffering horrible tribulation for their devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, more and more, this persecution is coming to America. And because of poor teaching, the American church is ill-prepared to deal with it.

We orthodox evangelicals pride ourselves in our ability to rightly divide the Word of God. We preach and teach the Historical / Grammatical method of interpretation, and rightly so. To us, the idea of reading allegories or other foreign ideas into the text is reprehensible. We also tend to pride ourselves on our ability to weed out theological positions that are purely based on false traditions and cultic mysticism, rather than solid scriptural evidence. This is because we rightly believe the Word of God is the inerrant final authority on all matters of faith and practice. For the most part, orthodox evangelicals contend for these hermeneutical principles in every area of theology, with one exception, eschatology. When it comes to the end times, preachers use all kinds of poetic license to develop their pet theories. No longer do they adhere to the notion that the Bible interprets the Bible; and that context determines the exact meaning of words. With eschatology, they tend to speculate when the bible is silent, and they diminish the clear meaning of God’s Word when it does not fit their narrative. With eschatology, all the rules are thrown out so they can change the meaning of words (just like cult leaders do) to support their aberrant end-time doctrines.
 
I will give you one glaring example of this trend using the word “tribulation.” The most popular end-times scenario, popularized by the late Tim Lehay and Jerry B. Jenkins in their Left Behind series of books goes something like this: The Great Tribulation is a period of future time when God’s wrath is poured out on the earth against unbelievers. This period of time lasts 7 years and marks the rise of the Antichrist. Since Christians are not subject to the wrath of God, all true believers in Christ will be raptured off planet earth just prior to the start of this seven year tribulation period. Sounds good, but there is a serious flaw in this definition of the word “tribulation.” Only a few times in scripture is the word tribulation used to speak of God’s punishment of the wicked. In 2 Thessalonians chapter one, God promises tribulation (affliction) to the ungodly immediately after He appears at His second coming. And in Revelation chapter two, Jesus says He will use tribulation (affliction) as a means of chastisement for the woman called Jezebel and those who follow her. All the rest of the references to tribulation are about Christians suffering affliction for their faith.
 
There is a serious problem with equating the concept of the great tribulation with the wrath of God. Because these ideas are two different concepts. Predominately the word “tribulation” in Scripture means the wrath of demoniacally inspired unbelievers persecuting the true believers of God. Thus, when authentic Christians are persecuted for their steadfast loyalty to the Savior Jesus Christ, they suffer tribulation. This tribulation is the wrath of Satan on genuine born again Christians. But on the other hand, “wrath” is God punishing the wicked for their sins, especially those who persecute true believers. Therefore, one concept is the wrath of God, and the other, the great tribulation, is the wrath of Satan.

Somehow through the writings of John Nelson Darby and C. I. Scofield, these concepts got intermingled and confused. To many evangelicals, Darby and Scofield are prophets of equal worth to the original 12 apostles. To them, when Scofield speaks, God must surrender to his interpretation. This is the kind of false traditionalism that many evangelicals unfortunately like. Since by their tradition, when Scofield speaks the debate is ended. And since Scofield has spoken, there is no need to test the spirits to see if they are of God. But if we really want to be true to our Reformation roots, we must examine what Darby, Scofield, Lehay, Jenkins and other pre-tribulationist say in the light of Scripture, just like anyone else.

Let’s get the definition of “tribulation” and see if it fits the Scofield / Lahay scenario. In Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, the word tribulation means “affliction.” He wrote that the great tribulation is a time when the fury (wrath) of antichristian powers are focused on the Palestinian Jews primarily, and on the Gentile witnesses of God secondarily. In other words, the great tribulation is the distress of God’s people when they are persecuted by the enemies of God. Additionally, in Arndt and Gingrich’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, tribulation is defined by the Greek words thlibo and thipsis to primarily mean the distress of Christians as they are persecuted, afflicted and troubled by outward forces and circumstances. This definition is clearly taught by our Lord as He spoke to his disciples (the church) about the end-times,

“Therefore when you (the church) see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the house-top not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:15-22)

It is therefore evident by the context of Jesus Christ’s words that the great tribulation is defined as a time of horrible persecution of God’s elect, the church, who must flee from the wrath of Satan that comes by way of the Antichrist. The prophet Daniel said this period of time would last 3 ½ years and that “the power of the holy people (saints/elect) [would be] completely shattered.” (Daniel 12:7) Therefore the elect must endure through the great tribulation. This is the plain and correct meaning of both texts. And as the Lord tells us in the Book of Revelation,

“Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’” (Revelation 7:13,14)

To come out of something means you first have to be in something. These are Christians who were martyred in the great tribulation. Thus, the great tribulation is not God’s wrath on unbelievers, but Satan’s antichristian wrath upon authentic blood bought believers in Christ. The term “elect” means anyone who is in Christ at the time.

But again, based on the writings of Scofield and other per-tribulation rapture theorists, the great tribulation is equal to the wrath of God. However, there is no evidence of this in Scripture. And because the Apostle Paul tells us Christians are not “appointed to wrath” (1 Thessalonians. 5:9), they assume Christians do not have to suffer through the great tribulation. But there is nothing in Scripture that specifically states every Christian is exempt from tribulation, including the great tribulation. In fact the opposite is true, as the Apostle Paul said, “So that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you suffer.” (II Thessalonians 1:4,5)

Some Christians may be spared persecution in the great tribulation by the Lord in His sovereignty (Revelation 3:7-13), but many others will suffer for Christ. Even today, prior to the great tribulation, many people suffer horrible persecution and tribulation in hostile parts of the world, while other Christians live in relative peace and safety. During the great tribulation, a few pockets of Christians may be spared by God, but most Christians will endure the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen. And as Christ said, unless He shortened those days, no flesh would be spared. But for the sake of the elect (the Church), he shortens those days.

There is a massive multi-million dollar industry dedicated to the assumption that the great tribulation is equal to the wrath of God. These proponents of the pre-tribulation rapture make millions of dollars writing books and making movies assuring Christian they do not have to suffer persecution or tribulation for their faith prior to the rapture. But these massive, complicated and bulky theories are held up by the flimsiest of Scriptural speculation and wordplay. It is like trying to lift the weight of an elephant off the ground using a kite string. No matter how hard you try the weight will break that string. Defining the great tribulation as the wrath of God is the kite string that can’t support the theory. It is the lynchpin that connects the whole thing. Without it, the entire theory falls apart. The Left Behind doctrines are nothing more than giant sand castles, giving people the false hope of evacuation just prior to a tsunami of end-time persecution. So instead of soberly preparing people to face the tribulation to come, the American evangelical church is throwing parties in their fortresses made of sand. Instead of putting on the whole armor of God, the church is putting on its party hat. Instead of making solid disciples, the church is making spiritual revelers, drunk on the wine of end-time myths and fables. Once these notions are dispelled, the entire theory is washed away by the reality of Christ’s sobering predictions.

I believe the Lord is calling us back to His word. Back to counting the costs involved with true discipleship and devotion to Jesus Christ. We need to stop acting like the victory is final, because there is still more to come. We need to stop the elitist mentality that assumes persecution can never happen to us. We need to stop partying like we are already in Heaven. We need to stop the complacency and tom-foolery associated with false security. We need to take off our party hats and put back on the whole armor of God so we can stand in the evil day. We need to remember God has called us to be willing to suffer tribulation for His namesake. We need to be soberly prepared to walk through the great tribulation. We need to understand once again this world is not our home, and that we are only passing through on our way to our glorious reward in the life to come. We need to be prepared, along with our brothers and sisters around the world, to give up everything, even our lives if necessary, to be with the Lord in glory.
The trouble with tribulation is that it is coming our way. Are you spiritually prepared?
 
 
 

I disagree because the scriptures disagree. 

What part of Revelation, chapter 4 to chapter 19, is God's wrath poured out? If we just look up "wrath" we find the first mention in Revelation is at the 6th seal in chapter 6. It is the start of the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord. Nowhere do we find a verse where God's wrath is satisfied and he is no longer angry. 

Therefore, every trumpet judgment comes WITH God's wrath. Then we know ever vial is FILLED with His wrath, so all trumpet judgments and all vials will certainly be a part of God's wrath. This then would be from chapter 8 to chapter 16 - all during God's wrath. 

Where then, in Revelation, are the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of? He said AFTER the abomination. That would then be in the last half of the week. But if we study, we see God warning people not to take the mark, in chapter 14. It just makes sense then that the mark will not be enforced until chapter 15 - and there we see the beheaded just beginning to arrive in heaven.

Therefore, the days of GT are found in the very same chapters where God is very angry. What is this telling us? It is very simple, we cannot separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath accroding to TIME, because they are happening AT THE SAME TIME.  While Satan is venting his wrath by beheading saints, God is pouring out the vials of His wrath.

Agreed that the actual events of Satan's wrath will be different than the events of God's wrath. Satan's wrath is in beheading the saints - while God's wrath is pointed to destroying the sinners on earth  and shorting those days of GT where saints are being slaughtered. 

It would be much better to call this coming 7 year period of time as the 70th week of Daniel, and NOT "the tribulation." 

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26 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Where then, in Revelation, are the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of? He said AFTER the abomination.

Rev. 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands. ... 14 “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Luke 21:25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 “men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." ... 26 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things [that is, the events of the Great Tribulation] that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

The witness of Revelation 6:12ff. tells us that the heavenly signs precede the coming of the Father and Son in heaven to be seen by all men. At that point the Rapture takes place, and the Wrath begins. The raptured saints are then seen in Rev. 7, standing before the Son of Man in heaven: this is just what Jesus said in will occur after the events of Tribulation. Those events take place in the first five seals of Rev. 6, including the martyrdom of some of the faithful, spoken about in the fifth seal. It is all there to see, if you don't look upon these passages while having a veil of preconceptions over your eyes.

The Abomination of Desolation precedes the Great Tribulation:

Matt. 24:15 ...when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, ... 21 then there will be great tribulation...

-- so that we know that the AD immediately precedes (some believe is contingent with) the first seal.

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1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands. ... 14 “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Luke 21:25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 “men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." ... 26 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things [that is, the events of the Great Tribulation] that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

The witness of Revelation 6:12ff. tells us that the heavenly signs precede the coming of the Father and Son in heaven to be seen by all men. At that point the Rapture takes place, and the Wrath begins. The raptured saints are then seen in Rev. 7, standing before the Son of Man in heaven: this is just what Jesus said in will occur after the events of Tribulation. Those events take place in the first five seals of Rev. 6, including the martyrdom of some of the faithful, spoken about in the fifth seal. It is all there to see, if you don't look upon these passages while having a veil of preconceptions over your eyes.

The Abomination of Desolation precedes the Great Tribulation:

Matt. 24:15 ...when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, ... 21 then there will be great tribulation...

-- so that we know that the AD immediately precedes (some believe is contingent with) the first seal.

This theory must rearrange most of Revelation to work. It forces the days of GT of the 70th week  onto the first 5 seals, which are CHURCH AGE. 

Let's first think about what will CAUSE the days of GT. First, we can look in Rev 12 (a midpoint chapter) where Satan is cast down from heaven, very angry.  He goes after those who have fled, having SEEN the abomination as Jesus said, but failing there, he begins to go after all who love Jesus.  Take careful note that this begins AT THE MIDPOINT of the week.  (The exact midpoint is marked with the 7th trumpet: which will sound when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.)

Next, we look in Rev. 13 and see what the Beast and False Prophet does that actually causes this time of great pressure. First, we discover that the False Prophet causes the people to build a great image (Think Nebuchadnezzar) and forces people to worship the image - or lose their head. 

Next, they create a mark, and force all to receive this mark - or lose their head. 

However, before this, God sends an angel with this message: WORSHIP GOD.  Then another angel with this message: Receive this mark and you will be doomed to the lake of fire.

So people will be under GREAT PRESSURE! They cannot buy or sell without the mark, but to take the mark will doom them to the lake of fire. There will be no rain, and God will first turn 1/3 of fresh water into blood, then later ALL the fresh water into blood. In other words, the only water to drink will be bottled water from stores - stores that require the mark!  We are talking GREAT PRESSURE! Thirst can be an incredible driving force. 

Now we know what will CAUSE the days of great tribulation. Now, WHERE are these days in the book of Revelation? We know God will not warn people after the fact, so the truth is, the mark will not be enforced until after the warning, LATE in chapter 14 or between chapter 14 and 15. Then we see the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15. 

The truth then, the first five seals are CHURCH AGE! The 5th seal is for church age martyrs, not martyrs of the GT.  The days of GT will not start until chapter 15. This will be well over 1260 days into the 70th week. 

What then can we do with the great crowd too large to number? There will only be two great crowds too large to number: the New Testament saints and the Old Testament saints. Without a doubt, this group John saw in chapter 7 is the JUST RAPTURED church. In this I agree with him. The problem is, this writer supposes that "great tribulation" can only be ONCE. This is absolutely not true. I think in the mind of God, when there are martyrs, it is "great tribulation." All John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, it will be GT on the earth: people will be being martyred because they love Jesus. 

For further proof, just those two words were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus: He had to add that there would never, ever be days like this again nor was there in the past. In other words, these days would be worse then in 70 AD when Jerusalem was taken.  Therefore, there is your average "garden variety" of GT that is going on now, people being martyred here and there in the world. But coming up in REv. 15, the worse ever days of GT that Jesus spoke of. 

For chronology then, the 5th seal is for the church martyrs, and they are told that judgment is NOT COMING until their full number is complete. In reality, they are told they must wait for the rapture that will END the church age. The next martyr after the rapture will not be as they were killed, as church age martyrs. The next martyr will be a 70th week martyr. 

So the 5th seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended, or just before that first martyr; then the next event will be the pretrib rapture of the church. After that, the STart of the DAy of the Lord, as if the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY. Jesus will open the 6th seal to start the Day of the Lord. 

Next, the 7th seal - maybe ten days (awe) after the rapture and STart of the DAy. The 7th seal will be the official start of the 70th week. The 7th trumpet will mark the midpoint, and the 7th vial will end the week. Any theory that must rearrange Revelation to "fit" will be proven wrong. 

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3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I disagree because the scriptures disagree. 

What part of Revelation, chapter 4 to chapter 19, is God's wrath poured out? If we just look up "wrath" we find the first mention in Revelation is at the 6th seal in chapter 6. It is the start of the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord. Nowhere do we find a verse where God's wrath is satisfied and he is no longer angry. 

Therefore, every trumpet judgment comes WITH God's wrath. Then we know ever vial is FILLED with His wrath, so all trumpet judgments and all vials will certainly be a part of God's wrath. This then would be from chapter 8 to chapter 16 - all during God's wrath. 

Where then, in Revelation, are the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of? He said AFTER the abomination. That would then be in the last half of the week. But if we study, we see God warning people not to take the mark, in chapter 14. It just makes sense then that the mark will not be enforced until chapter 15 - and there we see the beheaded just beginning to arrive in heaven.

Therefore, the days of GT are found in the very same chapters where God is very angry. What is this telling us? It is very simple, we cannot separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath accroding to TIME, because they are happening AT THE SAME TIME.  While Satan is venting his wrath by beheading saints, God is pouring out the vials of His wrath.

Agreed that the actual events of Satan's wrath will be different than the events of God's wrath. Satan's wrath is in beheading the saints - while God's wrath is pointed to destroying the sinners on earth  and shorting those days of GT where saints are being slaughtered. 

It would be much better to call this coming 7 year period of time as the 70th week of Daniel, and NOT "the tribulation." 

Hi iamlamad,

I disagree.............. Well of course you do. I wouldn't expect anything less

because the scriptures disagree...............So you say! 

What part of Revelation, chapter 4 to chapter 19, is God's wrath poured out? If we just look up "wrath" we find the first mention in Revelation is at the 6th seal in chapter 6. It is the start of the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord................... agreed

Therefore, every trumpet judgment comes WITH God's wrath. Then we know ever vial is FILLED with His wrath, so all trumpet judgments and all vials will certainly be a part of God's wrath. This then would be from chapter 8 to chapter 16 - all during God's wrath.................agreed

Where then, in Revelation, are the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of? He said AFTER the abomination. That would then be in the last half of the week. But if we study, we see God warning people not to take the mark, in chapter 14. It just makes sense then that the mark will not be enforced until chapter 15 - and there we see the beheaded just beginning to arrive in heaven...........NOPE! Rev 7:14-17. They, the saints from Adam to the 7th seal, they are all there.

Therefore, the days of GT are found in the very same chapters where God is very angry. What is this telling us? It is very simple, we cannot separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath accroding to TIME, because they are happening AT THE SAME TIME.  While Satan is venting his wrath by beheading saints, God is pouring out the vials of His wrath...........NOPE!......Isaiah 2:17 tell us that the Lord alone will be exalted in that Day:

New American Standard Bible
The pride of man will be humbled And the loftiness of men will be abased; And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day,

Satan's wrath is in beheading the saints, while God's wrath is pointed to destroying the sinners on earth  and shorting those days of GT where saints are being slaughtered. .............. Actually, beheading is only one method. Satan has many other methods. But it's good to see that you are acknowledging that the saints will be around when Satan is beheading. But the saints won't be around when God is pouring out His Wrath against all ungodliness and sin. That's the trumpet and bowls........God's Wrath. That's from chapter 8 onward.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

This theory must rearrange most of Revelation to work. It forces the days of GT of the 70th week  onto the first 5 seals, which are CHURCH AGE. 

Let's first think about what will CAUSE the days of GT. First, we can look in Rev 12 (a midpoint chapter) where Satan is cast down from heaven, very angry.  He goes after those who have fled, having SEEN the abomination as Jesus said, but failing there, he begins to go after all who love Jesus.  Take careful note that this begins AT THE MIDPOINT of the week.  (The exact midpoint is marked with the 7th trumpet: which will sound when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.)

Next, we look in Rev. 13 and see what the Beast and False Prophet does that actually causes this time of great pressure. First, we discover that the False Prophet causes the people to build a great image (Think Nebuchadnezzar) and forces people to worship the image - or lose their head. 

Next, they create a mark, and force all to receive this mark - or lose their head. 

However, before this, God sends an angel with this message: WORSHIP GOD.  Then another angel with this message: Receive this mark and you will be doomed to the lake of fire.

So people will be under GREAT PRESSURE! They cannot buy or sell without the mark, but to take the mark will doom them to the lake of fire. There will be no rain, and God will first turn 1/3 of fresh water into blood, then later ALL the fresh water into blood. In other words, the only water to drink will be bottled water from stores - stores that require the mark!  We are talking GREAT PRESSURE! Thirst can be an incredible driving force. 

Now we know what will CAUSE the days of great tribulation. Now, WHERE are these days in the book of Revelation? We know God will not warn people after the fact, so the truth is, the mark will not be enforced until after the warning, LATE in chapter 14 or between chapter 14 and 15. Then we see the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15. 

The truth then, the first five seals are CHURCH AGE! The 5th seal is for church age martyrs, not martyrs of the GT.  The days of GT will not start until chapter 15. This will be well over 1260 days into the 70th week. 

What then can we do with the great crowd too large to number? There will only be two great crowds too large to number: the New Testament saints and the Old Testament saints. Without a doubt, this group John saw in chapter 7 is the JUST RAPTURED church. In this I agree with him. The problem is, this writer supposes that "great tribulation" can only be ONCE. This is absolutely not true. I think in the mind of God, when there are martyrs, it is "great tribulation." All John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, it will be GT on the earth: people will be being martyred because they love Jesus. 

For further proof, just those two words were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus: He had to add that there would never, ever be days like this again nor was there in the past. In other words, these days would be worse then in 70 AD when Jerusalem was taken.  Therefore, there is your average "garden variety" of GT that is going on now, people being martyred here and there in the world. But coming up in REv. 15, the worse ever days of GT that Jesus spoke of. 

For chronology then, the 5th seal is for the church martyrs, and they are told that judgment is NOT COMING until their full number is complete. In reality, they are told they must wait for the rapture that will END the church age. The next martyr after the rapture will not be as they were killed, as church age martyrs. The next martyr will be a 70th week martyr. 

So the 5th seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended, or just before that first martyr; then the next event will be the pretrib rapture of the church. After that, the STart of the DAy of the Lord, as if the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY. Jesus will open the 6th seal to start the Day of the Lord. 

Next, the 7th seal - maybe ten days (awe) after the rapture and STart of the DAy. The 7th seal will be the official start of the 70th week. The 7th trumpet will mark the midpoint, and the 7th vial will end the week. Any theory that must rearrange Revelation to "fit" will be proven wrong. 

There is no "forcing" anything when you understand the structure of revelation. Been through this many times with you before, But suffice it to say, there is a definitive time when the Tribulation and plagues end, and the Wrath of God begins, which is after the sixth seal, and sixth trumpet, and is the last time the saints are mentioned upon earth having to endure. 

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:
I believe the Lord is calling us back to His word. Back to counting the costs involved with true discipleship and devotion to Jesus Christ. We need to stop acting like the victory is final, because there is still more to come. We need to stop the elitist mentality that assumes persecution can never happen to us. We need to stop partying like we are already in Heaven. We need to stop the complacency and tom-foolery associated with false security. We need to take off our party hats and put back on the whole armor of God so we can stand in the evil day. We need to remember God has called us to be willing to suffer tribulation for His namesake. We need to be soberly prepared to walk through the great tribulation. We need to understand once again this world is not our home, and that we are only passing through on our way to our glorious reward in the life to come. We need to be prepared, along with our brothers and sisters around the world, to give up everything, even our lives if necessary, to be with the Lord in glory.
The trouble with tribulation is that it is coming our way. Are you spiritually prepared?
 

Are you the author Dennis, as the link did not name the author? Good Post I agree with everything except pinning the blame on Darby and Schofield. They taught with the Light they were given. We in the end times are seeing the Word of God unsealed to have clarity of understanding regarding these matters, so there is no need to demonize those who do not have these divine revelations coming into focus like we have in this day and age. I could pick a hundred things wrong with the teachings of all the great theologians of old Like Luther or Calvin or even Tozier and Ravenhill, But that to me is like demonizing sail boats which got us here because we now have jet engines, If you know what I mean. Me personally, I would rather see a new believer believing in the pre-trib rapture, than amillennialism or post millennialism, because at least when the proverbial excrement hits the fan they will Know they were wrong and reach repentance.

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19 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

What part of Revelation, chapter 4 to chapter 19, is God's wrath poured out? If we just look up "wrath" we find the first mention in Revelation is at the 6th seal in chapter 6. It is the start of the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord................... agreed

Therefore, every trumpet judgment comes WITH God's wrath. Then we know ever vial is FILLED with His wrath, so all trumpet judgments and all vials will certainly be a part of God's wrath. This then would be from chapter 8 to chapter 16 - all during God's wrath.................agreed

I gotta find another study I did on this and I will repost it when I get a chance. Might take a bit as it is buried in my emails. Hold these thoughts. I may have to just rewrite but this will take some time either way.

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20 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

There is no "forcing" anything when you understand the structure of revelation. Been through this many times with you before, But suffice it to say, there is a definitive time when the Tribulation and plagues end, and the Wrath of God begins, which is after the sixth seal, and sixth trumpet, and is the last time the saints are mentioned upon earth having to endure. 

 

Are you the author Dennis, as the link did not name the author? Good Post I agree with everything except pinning the blame on Darby and Schofield. They taught with the Light they were given. We in the end times are seeing the Word of God unsealed to have clarity of understanding regarding these matters, so there is no need to demonize those who do not have these divine revelations coming into focus like we have in this day and age. I could pick a hundred things wrong with the teachings of all the great theologians of old Like Luther or Calvin or even Tozier and Ravenhill, But that to me is like demonizing sail boats which got us here because we now have jet engines, If you know what I mean. Me personally, I would rather see a new believer believing in the pre-trib rapture, than amillennialism or post millennialism, because at least when the proverbial excrement hits the fan they will Know they were wrong and reach repentance.

 when the Tribulation and plagues end and the Wrath of God begins  Show us this in scripture and perhaps someone will believe it. In other words, it is a theory, but will it FIT?

We know when His wrath begins, as you said, at the 6th seal. But HOW are you going to prove seal 5 is "tribulation?" Ah! Perhaps you mean just your every day "tribulation" and not the "tribulation" of the 70th week?

Are you  tying the 6th seal and 5th trumpet together? If so, your theory will certainly be proven wrong. It is IMPOSSIBLE to get from the 6th seal (sealing the book) to the 5th trumpet (written INSIDE the book) without first opening the 7th seal, opening the book and sounding the first 4 trumpets. Maybe I misunderstood? 

I am not Dennis nor is Dennis me. I am Lamad - which means teacher in Hebrew.  I NEVER pick on Darby or Scofield. 

Good post (except when you disagreed with me!).

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1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad,

I disagree.............. Well of course you do. I wouldn't expect anything less

because the scriptures disagree...............So you say! 

What part of Revelation, chapter 4 to chapter 19, is God's wrath poured out? If we just look up "wrath" we find the first mention in Revelation is at the 6th seal in chapter 6. It is the start of the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord................... agreed

Therefore, every trumpet judgment comes WITH God's wrath. Then we know ever vial is FILLED with His wrath, so all trumpet judgments and all vials will certainly be a part of God's wrath. This then would be from chapter 8 to chapter 16 - all during God's wrath.................agreed

Where then, in Revelation, are the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of? He said AFTER the abomination. That would then be in the last half of the week. But if we study, we see God warning people not to take the mark, in chapter 14. It just makes sense then that the mark will not be enforced until chapter 15 - and there we see the beheaded just beginning to arrive in heaven...........NOPE! Rev 7:14-17. They, the saints from Adam to the 7th seal, they are all there.

Therefore, the days of GT are found in the very same chapters where God is very angry. What is this telling us? It is very simple, we cannot separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath accroding to TIME, because they are happening AT THE SAME TIME.  While Satan is venting his wrath by beheading saints, God is pouring out the vials of His wrath...........NOPE!......Isaiah 2:17 tell us that the Lord alone will be exalted in that Day:

New American Standard Bible
The pride of man will be humbled And the loftiness of men will be abased; And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day,

Satan's wrath is in beheading the saints, while God's wrath is pointed to destroying the sinners on earth  and shorting those days of GT where saints are being slaughtered. .............. Actually, beheading is only one method. Satan has many other methods. But it's good to see that you are acknowledging that the saints will be around when Satan is beheading. But the saints won't be around when God is pouring out His Wrath against all ungodliness and sin. That's the trumpet and bowls........God's Wrath. That's from chapter 8 onward.

NOPE! Rev 7:14-17. They, the saints from Adam to the 7th seal, they are all there.  Nope. The GT written in chapter 7 is just general everyday great tribulation. It is NOT the days of GT Jesus spoke of, and cannot be, for John has not yet arrived at the START of the week, much less arrived at the midpoint. (the midpoint of the week is marked by the 7th trumpet.) And as I pointed out, the days of GT Jesus spoke of causing beheadings will not begin until chapter 15, which fits what Jesus said perfectly.  Remember, the two words, "great tribulation" were not enough for Jesus to describe those days, because there are OTHER times of GT. So Jesus added, these are very special days of GT, so that it has never happened before nor ever will.  Did you not notice John wrote those two words together in chapter 2, definitely NOT refering to the days Jesus was talking about.   Next, this crowd too large to number is NOT Old Testament saints! John wrote, "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."  These can ONLY be New Testament saints. 

NOPE!......Isaiah 2:17 tell us that the Lord alone will be exalted in that Day:  Wrong again! He IS exalted! He is above all principalities  and powers. He is FAR above the Beast and His 42 months of reigning. It was our LORD that gave the Beast his 42 months. 

But it's good to see that you are acknowledging that the saints will be around when Satan is beheading. But the saints won't be around when God is pouring out His Wrath against all ungodliness and sin. That's the trumpet and bowls........God's Wrath. That's from chapter 8 onward.  Sorry, but this is rearranging, which is simply not permitted.  The CHURCH certainly won't be around, for the pretrib rapture will catch them out before the 6th seal where God's wrath begins. But NEW SAINTS will arrive, because MANY will turn to God after the rapture. These saints will have to face both Satan's wrath and God's wrath: NOT that God will be angry with them, but when He turns 1/3 of the fresh water to blood, then later all the fresh water to blood, it will hurt the believe and nonbeliever alike: BOTH will need water to drink. God did not SET their appointments, they set it themselves by not being ready for the rapture. 

Rapture at the 6th seal (just before) God's wrath begins in the Day of the Lord
7th seal is opened so now the BOOK is opened
First 6 trumpet judgments come, all with God's wrath
7th trumpet marks the moment the man of sin will enter the temple and commit the abomination.
Those in Judea will flee (12:6)
War in heaven, Satan is cast down, very angry
The man of sin is possessed by Satan and becomes the Beast (Rev. 13)
God sends angels to warn all the people in their own language:
...worship GOD - the God that created everything
...Babylon is fallen is fallen
...DON'T take the mark, or you will surely end up in the lake of fire
The mark is created, the image is built
The beheaded begin to show up (chapter 15)
Satan's anger hits a peak as millions are beheaded Chapter 15 into chapter 16
God pours out the first 6 vials of His wrath - to SHORTEN those days of GT.
(the days of GT then go from chapter 15 to chapter 16. This is scripture.)
Finally day 1260 from the abomination arrives and the 7th vial ends the week. 
The Old Testament saints arise: on the last day.
Jesus does NOT return at the end of the week
The marriage and supper take place in heaven
Then, and finally, Jesus returns WITH his church.

This is God's order - the very order John wrote. 

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4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands. ... 14 “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Luke 21:25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 “men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." ... 26 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things [that is, the events of the Great Tribulation] that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

The witness of Revelation 6:12ff. tells us that the heavenly signs precede the coming of the Father and Son in heaven to be seen by all men. At that point the Rapture takes place, and the Wrath begins. The raptured saints are then seen in Rev. 7, standing before the Son of Man in heaven: this is just what Jesus said in will occur after the events of Tribulation. Those events take place in the first five seals of Rev. 6, including the martyrdom of some of the faithful, spoken about in the fifth seal. It is all there to see, if you don't look upon these passages while having a veil of preconceptions over your eyes.

The Abomination of Desolation precedes the Great Tribulation:

Matt. 24:15 ...when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, ... 21 then there will be great tribulation...

-- so that we know that the AD immediately precedes (some believe is contingent with) the first seal.

Sorry, but this is human reasoning gone awry. 

First point: there is your everyday garden variety of "GT." It is happening now as people are martyred around the world. 

Then, there is the super variety of GT that Jesus spoke of, great tribulation that nothing like it has happened in the past, nor ever will.  The "GT" written by the great crowd too large to number in chapter 7  - the just raptured church - came out of days just like today, where people are being martyred because they love Jesus. 

Next, you are confusing the cosmic signs in the gospels with the signs at the 6th seal and in Joel 2, that come BEFORE the Day of the Lord. The truth is, cosmic signs will be seen TWICE, first with a blood moon for the sign of the DAY, then 7 years later as the sign for His coming, with a darkened moon AND sun, meaning total darkness. Neither the sun or the moon can be seen. Or the stars! 

The blood moon (Joel 2) will be seen at the Day of the Lord, before the 70th week begins. The total darkness, sun and moon invisible, will come just before Jesus returns, as in Rev. 19. This is written in Joel 3.  Joel then shows us BOTH signs.

escape all these things  I would include the events of the entire 70th week. 

standing before the Son of Man in heaven: this is just what Jesus said in will occur after the events of Tribulation Sorry, but I need to see your scripture for this.

Those events take place in the first five seals of Rev. 6, including the martyrdom of some of the faithful, spoken about in the fifth seal.   Sorry, but you are mixing up church age (the 5th seal) with 70th week events.  The first seal is the church taking the gospel to the world. Seals 2 thought 4 are church age, the devil trying to stop the church. Yes, of course there are martyrs in the church age. The devil hates the church and hates the gospel even more. So he has tried his best to keep the gospel out of nations. Note, the trumpets and vials and the days of GT are in the 70th week that begins at the 7th seal. The days of GT are not seen until after God gives the warnings in chapter 14. 

while having a veil of preconceptions over your eyes.  Sorry, but the preconceptions are all on your side here. I follow the exact order given.  I know that any rearranging is proof the theory is wrong. 

Matt. 24:15 ...when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, ... 21 then there will be great tribulation...  This is TRUTH: good job!

so that we know that the AD immediately precedes (some believe is contingent with) the first seal.  This is MILES off: terrible job!

Now, what is your thinking that you would write this? Ah! Because you are forced by wrong theories to put the days of GT in the seals! (one mistake leads to many more) How about we just follow JOHN? 

Back up to chapter 4 & 5: there God sets the context of the first seal and its TIMING: 

Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father: leads one to think of the 32 years Jesus was on earth.

Jesus NOT found worthy in that first search John watched that ended in failure: leads one to know this is before Christ rose from the dead. 

The Holy Spirit seen in the throne room: leads one to think Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

TIME PASSES

In the next search for one worthy, JESUS IS FOUND worthy: this tells us Jesus just rose from the dead.

Next, John saw Jesus SUDDENLY appear in the throne room having just been slain and then risen from the dead - and at that moment the Holy Spirit is sent down: shows us TIMING: this happened around 32 AD.  Miss this part and everything that follows will be wrong. 

So John saw a white horse and rider. John used white 17 times in Revelation: 16 times to represent righteousness. Without ANY doubt then, the white horse represents righteousness. The ONLY think righteous in 32 AD was the church - which was sent out to take the gospel to the world. Only one small problem: Satan is the GOD of this world! So, there must be overcoming and conquering to advance the gospel. 

The first seal then is the church taking the gospel to the world.  (doubt? Read the commentators!)

The red horse and rider, the black horse and rider and the pale horse and rider - these three ride together: their mission? To STOP the advance of the gospel. These are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. God has LIMITED them to one forth of the earth in their theater of operation. He can use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts. Of course the devil failed: the gospel is available everywhere now!

The fifth seal are church age martyrs: Stephen was one of the first. 

In other words, you have a classic case of "jumping the gun!" 

Edited by iamlamad

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