The Trouble with Tribulation

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Iamlamad,

"7th trumpet marks the moment the man of sin will enter the temple and commit the abomination."

The 7th trumpet would be the last after 6 trumpets have blown. I'm sure you would agree.

1st trumpet: hail, fire and blood thrown to the earth. 1/3 of the earth was burned up, 1/3 of the trees were burned up, and ALL the green grass was burned up (vegetation)

2nd trumpet: a great mountain burning with fire thrown into the sea, 1/3 of the sea became blood, 1/3 of the sea creatures die, 1/3 of the ships destroyed

3rd trumpet: 1/3 of the rivers and springs became bitter....many died from drinking the water

4th trumpet: 1/3 of the sun, moon, and stars were darkened so that the day would not shine for 1/3 of it

5th trumpet: locusts, power given to them to torment for 5 months

6th trumpet: 4 angels released to kill 1/3 of mankind by the 200 million army......those left alive DID NOT REPENT of the works of their hands, worship of demons and idols of gold, silver , brass wood, nor of their murders and sorceries, nor of their immorality or thefts.

7th trumpet: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord.....temple in heaven is opened. (There is no moment marked when the man of sin enters the temple and commits the AofD. )

So, you are saying that after ALL THIS FURY AND WRATH OF GOD, that is when the antichrist enters the temple.....that is when the Jews flee Jerusalem....that is when the mark and image of the beast is created.......................And God warns the people!

And who will it affect? 

Those alive during the 6th trumpet mayhem  DO NOT REPENT!.............They DO NOT REPENT!

Yes,  agree: the 7th trumpet will be the last trumpet of this series. 

All this fury and wrath? WHOSE fury and wrath? It is all GOD'S wrath to this point. It is God's judgment upon an unrepenting people. 

o, you are saying that after ALL THIS FURY AND WRATH OF GOD, that is when the antichrist enters the temple.....that is when the Jews flee Jerusalem....that is when the mark and image of the beast is created.......................And God warns the people!  I did not say it, John wrote it and I just repeated it. Up to the midpoint, the man of sin is not yet even revealed. So far it has been only God's wrath in the trumpet judgments.  God's warning not to take the mark does not come until chapter 14. 

Do you mean those LEFT alive after 1/3 is killed? Certainly, for the 6th trumpet will kill 1/3 of the people. 

Amazing, isn't it - that people can be so hardened against God that they will not repent after all this? 

So it will be the 2/3 left that will be deceived by the Beast and False Prophet. 

I don't see any problem here. 

[iamlamad]

45 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

That is you reading into the text. They are clearly coupled together, the falling away and the revealing of the man of Sin. (declaring Himself God)

I Do not know how you cannot see this. Those of us who see this revealing will not be fooled, but the majority will be that this man indeed is the messiah

Same thing.

 

No Adlibbing here, just simple reading of the text the rapture is the subject in verse 1, and the two things that must occur before the rapture are the falling away, and the revealing of the man of sin. Notice the conjunction "and" between the two things, which ties them together... you remember "conjunction, junction what's your function" from the old Sat. morning toons don't you? Let me quote that verse again so that it can sink in.  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The Two are joined together by the conjunction "and", simple 1st grade grammar. That day, referring to the day of our gathering together unto the LORD, from verse 1 the subject of the sentence

 

At least I see an insect when I look at the tree And the damage that insect is doing to the tree. I Noticed you did not address at all what I said about verses 8-9, which is the key to understanding the whole passage, and the key to my understanding. Why is that? Because the whole passage is summed up there, and explained logically, but because you have the "pre-trib" glasses on you cannot see this. You need to take those glasses off, before approaching this passage if you want to know the Truth, Just like I did, and I encourage others to do as well. If you approach a topic with prescription glasses on, the outcome will always lean towards those preconceptions those glasses allow you to see. 

They are clearly coupled together, the falling away and the revealing of the man of Sin.  I can only surmise then that you do not understand what is meant by the word FIRST.  It is a sequence: one comes before the other. Apostasia MUST come before the revealing. 

Those of us who see this revealing will not be fooled  Those that see the revealing will have missed the rapture, so already fooled. 

the two things that must occur   John says only ONE thing is first: the apostasia before the revealing. I agree, two things have to happen before people will KNOW the DAY has come and they are now in it. You think the revealing will start the day. I don't.

Paul's argument is, once people SEE the revealing, then they will know THE DAY has already started and they are in it. It is just what John shows us: the DAY starts at the 6th seal, and 3.5 years later the revealing: so when people see the revealing they will KNOW the day has started and they are in it. 

the two things that must occur before the rapture   Are you equating "the day of the Lord" with the rapture?  So after the apostasia, then the revealing, then the Day of the Lord and rapture - as if they happen at the same time?

One problem I see is that Paul is not equating THE DAY with the rapture - only you are. And Paul is not pinpointing the START of the day, only that once the man of sin is revealed, the DAY will have already started. 

that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition 

Good.  "That day" the day of the Lord, shall not be or shall not come until first the apostasia and then the revealing.  Don't you find it disturbing that every mention of "the day" in the Old Testament is of disaster, distress, darkness, terror, destruction etc?  There is no verse about the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament that would hint of anything nice happening, like HIS COMING for His church. 

If we go back to 1 Thes. 4 & 5, we see that the rapture will TRIGGER the day of the Lord.  Paul's order in his second letter agrees: rapture first, then revealing, then all will know THE DAY has come. 

I did not see anything in verses 8 & 9 that speak to timing, so no comments.  But then, you have never answered by question about how in the world the man of is IS REVEALED in verse 3b? How did he get revealed when before He can be, the one restraining must be gone from the midst, or taken out of the way? 

We are always going to disagree on this passage.

[dhchristian]

29 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

They are clearly coupled together, the falling away and the revealing of the man of Sin.  I can only surmise then that you do not understand what is meant by the word FIRST.  It is a sequence: one comes before the other. Apostasia MUST come before the revealing. 

I Understand the word first. The two things coupled together come first, Then the coming of Christ occurs. Let me quote it again for you...Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

41 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Those of us who see this revealing will not be fooled  Those that see the revealing will have missed the rapture, so already fooled.

If there is no one here with eyes to see, how will they even see the revealing, as they will believe the lie? Do You see how nonsensical your view is yet? I am not saying this to insult you either, because I thought as you do at one time and was convinced. Think about that for a moment. 

 

46 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

the two things that must occur before the rapture   Are you equating "the day of the Lord" with the rapture?  So after the apostasia, then the revealing, then the Day of the Lord and rapture - as if they happen at the same time?

One problem I see is that Paul is not equating THE DAY with the rapture - only you are. And Paul is not pinpointing the START of the day, only that once the man of sin is revealed, the DAY will have already started. 

There is the Day of Christ, and the Day of the Lord. The Day of Christ is when He comes for His church, and is the wrath of the Lamb, Then there is the day of the LORD, when he comes in Wrath to take the throne, and  rule and reign in the millennial Kingdom. The KJV is one of the few translations that gets this right in the said verses. Speaking of the Day of Christ.

Simply put, the Day of Christ = the rapture, and the wrath of the Lamb, the day of the Lord= the redemption and restoration of Israel and the wrath of God the Father on the wicked. During the Day of Christ, the kingdom of the beast is destroyed, By the brightness of His coming (see verse 8 above) and those who have received the MOB will be judged.

Yet You yourself make no distinction between the day of Christ and the Day of the LORD, How can this be? Or for that mater between the Wrath of the Lamb, and the Wrath of God, Nor do you comprehend the difference between a plague and Wrath, Or between tribulation and Great tribulation and the Wrath of God. Your theories are empty of these matters because you have never given them the time of day because you have had the pre-trib spectacles on this whole time and see no need for you to know these things.

For me the realization Came when he gave me the Word of Wisdom about us being the Laodicean church age, and that we are all Laodiceans, and there is the realization that we are prone to fall for the strong delusion, and in fact the problem with the Laodicean church age is the fact that there is a denial of the need to know these things. If I were you, I would take this as a grave warning instead of a matter of interpretation, But such is the denial of the Laodiceans.  

[JoeCanada]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yes,  agree: the 7th trumpet will be the last trumpet of this series. 

All this fury and wrath? WHOSE fury and wrath? It is all GOD'S wrath to this point. It is God's judgment upon an unrepenting people. 

o, you are saying that after ALL THIS FURY AND WRATH OF GOD, that is when the antichrist enters the temple.....that is when the Jews flee Jerusalem....that is when the mark and image of the beast is created.......................And God warns the people!  I did not say it, John wrote it and I just repeated it. Up to the midpoint, the man of sin is not yet even revealed. So far it has been only God's wrath in the trumpet judgments.  God's warning not to take the mark does not come until chapter 14. 

Do you mean those LEFT alive after 1/3 is killed? Certainly, for the 6th trumpet will kill 1/3 of the people. 

Amazing, isn't it - that people can be so hardened against God that they will not repent after all this? 

So it will be the 2/3 left that will be deceived by the Beast and False Prophet. 

I don't see any problem here. 

I don't see any problem here. 

Well, let's carry on then shall we.

Question 1:

After the seventh angel sounds the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of Christ. Satan has his kingdoms removed and Christ rightfully takes ownership and begins ruling. That's what is written for the 7th trumpet....Rev 11:15-19..........Do you agree to this?

Question 2:

You say that Satan only comes into the picture after the 7th trumpet is blown. This is after his kingdom has been removed from him. This is after Christ begins His rule. Rev 13 says that the whole world follows after the beast..... and they worship the beast.....and he's been given authority to act for 42 months. Are you saying that Christ, who has just retook the kingdom from Satan, that He now gives Satan authority to act for 42 months?....in Christs Kingdom..........to make war with the saints and to overcome them?

And just WHO are these saints that Satan is given authority over for 42 months, after Christ has begun to reign and rule in His Kingdom?....which He just took back from Satan (even writing this makes one shake his head at the absurdity of it)

Are these saints the great multitude that no man could count that came out of the "Great Tribulation"...Rev 7:9.....which you say starts at the 7th trumpet.....which the scriptures say that during the trumpets, that the people hardened their hearts against God, blasphemed Him, cursed Him....and these people WOULD NOT REPENT?  Good lord, there has to be billions of them. Billions of them who hold to the Word of God and have the testimony of Jesus.....Billions who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of Jesus. But they must have all been hiding somewhere....because during the trumpets, people just don't repent!!!

Amazing, isn't it - that people can be so hardened against God that they will not repent after all this?................ Yup....it's actually beyond amazing!

So it will be the 2/3 left that will be deceived by the Beast and False Prophet........................I don't see any problem here. 

Perhaps some real good glass cleaner would help.

 

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

OF course it does, for it is the intent or the Author. However, preconceptions cloud minds. 

Here is Strong's for APO: HALF the compound word "apostasia."

of separation

of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance

physical, of distance of place

temporal, of distance of time

DH, you have to ask yourself, did Paul know everything there was to know at the time about this word? You know he did - and He chose it. 

Note: THEME of passage is the rapture, which will most certainly be a departing of the church to heaven.

Note: verse 6 through 8 is very clear, the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the one restraining is taken out of the way.

Yet, if we back up to verse 3b the man of sin IS revealed. That means some time BEFORE verse 3b the one restraining had to have been "taken out of the way."  The ONLY word you can find in 3a that comes close to something being "taken out of the way," is in the word, apostasia.

YOU CHOOSE:

It can be people departing from the faith.

It can be people departing the planet as in the gathering or rapture.

For the first, there are problems: in is not just a departing, it is THE departing: a very significant one. In Paul's argument, this has to be something recognizable so they can say: "ah! This is Paul was writing about. Now the man of sin can be revealed.  But a question for those that believe it is a falling away from the faith: how in the world would anyone know when ENOUGH had fallen away to know it was THE falling away Paul spoke of?

For the second choice, the departing of the church, IT FITS PAUL'S theme. The other choice does not.

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day [the Day of the Lord] will not come unless the rapture comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Note: there are many many translations that use "Day of the Lord" for the simple fact that some of the Greek manuscripts have "Day of the Lord."  I have always said that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day.

This verse make perfect sense as written here. 

our rapture is contingent upon our departing coming first   You are right, what you wrote makes NO sense. I don't know how you got it.  It is certainly not what Paul wrote.

What really does not make sense is the way the KJV translated it. I cannot comprehend how evil -  a significant falling away (from faith?)  - can restrain the man of sin. It makes far more sense that it is God the Holy Spirit doing the restraining, using the authority of the church.

Shalom, iamlamad and others.

Guys, "apo" is a Greek preposition that means "away from!" "Stasia" is a Greek gerund that means "a standing." Together, "apostasia" means "a standing away from." Why make it harder than that?

Strong's says all this through links:

646 apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah). Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy")
-- falling away, forsake.

647 apostasion (ap-os-tas'-ee-on). Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of afisteemi; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce
-- (writing of) divorcement.

868 afisteemi (af-is-tay'-mee). From apo and histeemi; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, [to] desert, etc.
-- depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

575 apo (apo'). A primary particle; "off," i.e. Away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative)
-- (X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

2476 histeemi (his'-tay-mee). A prolonged form of a primary staoo stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively)
-- abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare titheemi.

5087 titheemi (tith'-ay-mee). A prolonged form of a primary theoo (theh'-o) (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses) to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly, in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different from histeemi, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while keimaiis properly reflexive and utterly prostrate) -- + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down.

Thus, apostasia NEVER means "to GO away!" And, THAT'S how someone should use these study helps, like Strong's Greek Dictionary! NEVER FORCE your view upon the definition! ALWAYS use the definition and the text of Scriptures to guide your view! (That's the difference between exegesis and eisegesis!)

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad and others.

Guys, "apo" is a Greek preposition that means "away from!" "Stasia" is a Greek gerund that means "a standing." Together, "apostasia" means "a standing away from." Why make it harder than that?

Strong's says all this through links:

646 apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah). Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy")
-- falling away, forsake.

647 apostasion (ap-os-tas'-ee-on). Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of afisteemi; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce
-- (writing of) divorcement.

868 afisteemi (af-is-tay'-mee). From apo and histeemi; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, [to] desert, etc.
-- depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

575 apo (apo'). A primary particle; "off," i.e. Away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative)
-- (X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

2476 histeemi (his'-tay-mee). A prolonged form of a primary staoo stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively)
-- abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare titheemi.

5087 titheemi (tith'-ay-mee). A prolonged form of a primary theoo (theh'-o) (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses) to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly, in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different from histeemi, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while keimaiis properly reflexive and utterly prostrate) -- + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down.

Thus, apostasia NEVER means "to GO away!" And, THAT'S how someone should use these study helps, like Strong's Greek Dictionary! NEVER FORCE your view upon the definition! ALWAYS use the definition and the text of Scriptures to guide your view! (That's the difference between exegesis and eisegesis!)

"Departing" is a good definition. Several translations used it. If you are departing, you are moving AWAY from something. It is not a moving away from a standing, it is a part of a whole moving way SO FAST the rest of the whole seems just standing in one place.  You are right, it is very simple.  You really should read Strong's on "Apo."

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I don't see any problem here. 

Well, let's carry on then shall we.

Question 1:

After the seventh angel sounds the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of Christ. Satan has his kingdoms removed and Christ rightfully takes ownership and begins ruling. That's what is written for the 7th trumpet....Rev 11:15-19..........Do you agree to this?

Question 2:

You say that Satan only comes into the picture after the 7th trumpet is blown. This is after his kingdom has been removed from him. This is after Christ begins His rule. Rev 13 says that the whole world follows after the beast..... and they worship the beast.....and he's been given authority to act for 42 months. Are you saying that Christ, who has just retook the kingdom from Satan, that He now gives Satan authority to act for 42 months?....in Christs Kingdom..........to make war with the saints and to overcome them?

And just WHO are these saints that Satan is given authority over for 42 months, after Christ has begun to reign and rule in His Kingdom?....which He just took back from Satan (even writing this makes one shake his head at the absurdity of it)

Are these saints the great multitude that no man could count that came out of the "Great Tribulation"...Rev 7:9.....which you say starts at the 7th trumpet.....which the scriptures say that during the trumpets, that the people hardened their hearts against God, blasphemed Him, cursed Him....and these people WOULD NOT REPENT?  Good lord, there has to be billions of them. Billions of them who hold to the Word of God and have the testimony of Jesus.....Billions who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of Jesus. But they must have all been hiding somewhere....because during the trumpets, people just don't repent!!!

Amazing, isn't it - that people can be so hardened against God that they will not repent after all this?................ Yup....it's actually beyond amazing!

So it will be the 2/3 left that will be deceived by the Beast and False Prophet........................I don't see any problem here. 

Perhaps some real good glass cleaner would help.

 

1. I agree, as long as we both understand, ownership does not mean physical possession. Jesus can and does remain in heaven after the kingdoms of the world have been transferred to Him. After all, He has granted the Beast 42 months of authority.

2.   Are you saying that Christ, who has just retook the kingdom from Satan, that He now gives Satan authority to act for 42 months?  I did not say it, john said it. It is good you understand this. It is scripture.

And just WHO are these saints that Satan is given authority over for 42 months  This is really very simple: all those LEFT BEHIND at the rapture plus all those who turn to Christ after the rapture. 

Are these saints the great multitude that no man could count that came out of the "Great Tribulation"...Rev 7:9.  No, could not be, for they were seen in the throne room! God is not going to take the church up for a quick peek and send us down to His wrath! We STAY for 7 years.

which you say starts at the 7th trumpet.  Jesus said those days would start after the abomination, and Daniel tells us the abomination will divide the week. In Revelation we see those days begin after the warning in chapter 14.

Good lord, there has to be billions of them.    7 plus billion today. The rapture may take half (adding in the kids). that would  leave 3.5 Billion.  Then the 6th seal will take 1/3 of that.  Now  there is only a little over one billion left for the days of GT. A few of these will be saints. It's harvest time: God is going to harvest with the just and the wicked during the last half of the week and after.

Remember, the rapture comes BEFORE THE WEEK. A moment after the rapture and MOST OF THE WORLD will be unsaved. 

The rest of mankind, those who were not killed by these plagues, even then did not turn from what they had made with their own hands — they did not stop worshipping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk.

because during the trumpets, people just don't repent!!   Does this include all alive on the earth? Or does it just include those that worship idols? I think the latter. EVERYONE on earth is not going to fit into this group. Some will have their names written in the book of life - but compared to the rest, it will be a small group. Sinners always outnumber the saints. 

Look, we have to work with what we have. I am not going to try and rearrange to fit some theory. Others find no problem with that.

I think our difference here is that you  think this verse includes the entire population.  I don't think so.

[ENOCH2010]

I look forward to the day when iamlamad says Wow!! I see what you all have been saying all this time. I remember the day I turned from the pre-trib doctrine to the truth of the Word of God. I must wait. 

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

1. I agree, as long as we both understand, ownership does not mean physical possession. Jesus can and does remain in heaven after the kingdoms of the world have been transferred to Him. After all, He has granted the Beast 42 months of authority.

2.   Are you saying that Christ, who has just retook the kingdom from Satan, that He now gives Satan authority to act for 42 months?  I did not say it, john said it. It is good you understand this. It is scripture.

And just WHO are these saints that Satan is given authority over for 42 months  This is really very simple: all those LEFT BEHIND at the rapture plus all those who turn to Christ after the rapture. 

Are these saints the great multitude that no man could count that came out of the "Great Tribulation"...Rev 7:9.  No, could not be, for they were seen in the throne room! God is not going to take the church up for a quick peek and send us down to His wrath! We STAY for 7 years.

which you say starts at the 7th trumpet.  Jesus said those days would start after the abomination, and Daniel tells us the abomination will divide the week. In Revelation we see those days begin after the warning in chapter 14.

Good lord, there has to be billions of them.    7 plus billion today. The rapture may take half (adding in the kids). that would  leave 3.5 Billion.  Then the 6th seal will take 1/3 of that.  Now  there is only a little over one billion left for the days of GT. A few of these will be saints. It's harvest time: God is going to harvest with the just and the wicked during the last half of the week and after.

Remember, the rapture comes BEFORE THE WEEK. A moment after the rapture and MOST OF THE WORLD will be unsaved. 

The rest of mankind, those who were not killed by these plagues, even then did not turn from what they had made with their own hands — they did not stop worshipping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk.

because during the trumpets, people just don't repent!!   Does this include all alive on the earth? Or does it just include those that worship idols? I think the latter. EVERYONE on earth is not going to fit into this group. Some will have their names written in the book of life - but compared to the rest, it will be a small group. Sinners always outnumber the saints. 

Look, we have to work with what we have. I am not going to try and rearrange to fit some theory. Others find no problem with that.

I think our difference here is that you  think this verse includes the entire population.  I don't think so.

"I am not going to try and rearrange to fit some theory."

Well, that's exactly what I see happening here. It's iamlamad's theory.

Brother, I'm not even going to discuss this any further with you. 

It's obvious that you don't see what's obvious. Good luck with your theories.

Respectfully......

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"Departing" is a good definition. Several translations used it. If you are departing, you are moving AWAY from something. It is not a moving away from a standing, it is a part of a whole moving way SO FAST the rest of the whole seems just standing in one place.  You are right, it is very simple.  You really should read Strong's on "Apo."

Shalom, iamlamad.

Nope. "Departing" is NOT a good definition for "apostasia." And, I've GOT the Strong's on "apo" right there above! It means "away from!" Did you read ANYTHING I wrote?!

You are being so "closed-minded" about the truth, that you can't see it any way but your own! It's WRONG! It's not "MOVING away from something"; it's "STANDING away from something!"

NEVER FORCE your view upon the definition! ALWAYS use the definition and the text of Scriptures to guide your view! (That's the difference between exegesis [good] and eisegesis [bad]!) Have you ever studied hermeneutics? I would suggest doing so ... to ANYBODY and EVERYBODY!