The Trouble with Tribulation

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The verb is the same in both verses, Aorist Indicative, generally translated in the simple past tense: came.

This does not take away from what I have said in the least, in fact it affirms that his wrath is come past tense, which rev. 11;18 is part and parcel to the seventh trumpet. Remember, we are the temple (lively stones) which is seen in heaven. (rev. 11:19)

I Do not know if I have dealt with this with you, but let me give you a brief synopsis of how I interpret revelation. I see it as 7 visions, each ending at the Day of the Lord. Some vision span over long periods of time, such as the church ages, others are short range prophecies limited to the final week. How they sync up is what makes up the seven thunders, I use that term lightly, but what it mean is the consummation of the events. So for me, the sixth seal can and will be concurrent with the sixth trumpet. Some come to the conclusion there are multiple raptures, I say they are one in the same resurrection, the dead in Christ, those who are alive, the two witnesses. This being the day of Christ, and the Wrath of the Lamb, and is when the Beast (kingdom) is destroyed by the breath of his mouth and the brightness of his coming. (2 Thess. 2:8). The rapture thus is a pre wrath, Mid trib event.

I Know there few if any who see revelation this way, but what he has showed me through His Word makes perfect sense. Seven visions is an analogy I use, also the concept that what John was shown was like a painting being painted by a master artist, that stretches across time, first the background is painted from left to right (past to present), and then the details are filled in each telling events through time over the same background, and they all sync at the end.    

[Revelation Man]

On 10/24/2019 at 10:31 AM, JoeCanada said:

The Trouble with Tribulation

 

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation…” (2 Corinthians 1:3,4a)

 Both our Lord and the Apostles warned us in Scripture that times of persecution would come upon the people of God. They warned us that tribulation would follow genuine devotion to Christ. Throughout the centuries the authentic followers of Jesus Christ have suffered greatly for their faith. They have been slandered, mocked, beaten, crucified, stoned, ravaged by wild beasts, tortured on the rack, sold into slavery, burned at the stake, and had their heads cut off for the sake of the true Gospel. Even today, all around the world, Christians are suffering horrible tribulation for their devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, more and more, this persecution is coming to America. And because of poor teaching, the American church is ill-prepared to deal with it.

We orthodox evangelicals pride ourselves in our ability to rightly divide the Word of God. We preach and teach the Historical / Grammatical method of interpretation, and rightly so. To us, the idea of reading allegories or other foreign ideas into the text is reprehensible. We also tend to pride ourselves on our ability to weed out theological positions that are purely based on false traditions and cultic mysticism, rather than solid scriptural evidence. This is because we rightly believe the Word of God is the inerrant final authority on all matters of faith and practice. For the most part, orthodox evangelicals contend for these hermeneutical principles in every area of theology, with one exception, eschatology. When it comes to the end times, preachers use all kinds of poetic license to develop their pet theories. No longer do they adhere to the notion that the Bible interprets the Bible; and that context determines the exact meaning of words. With eschatology, they tend to speculate when the bible is silent, and they diminish the clear meaning of God’s Word when it does not fit their narrative. With eschatology, all the rules are thrown out so they can change the meaning of words (just like cult leaders do) to support their aberrant end-time doctrines.

 

I will give you one glaring example of this trend using the word “tribulation.” The most popular end-times scenario, popularized by the late Tim Lehay and Jerry B. Jenkins in their Left Behind series of books goes something like this: The Great Tribulation is a period of future time when God’s wrath is poured out on the earth against unbelievers. This period of time lasts 7 years and marks the rise of the Antichrist. Since Christians are not subject to the wrath of God, all true believers in Christ will be raptured off planet earth just prior to the start of this seven year tribulation period. Sounds good, but there is a serious flaw in this definition of the word “tribulation.” Only a few times in scripture is the word tribulation used to speak of God’s punishment of the wicked. In 2 Thessalonians chapter one, God promises tribulation (affliction) to the ungodly immediately after He appears at His second coming. And in Revelation chapter two, Jesus says He will use tribulation (affliction) as a means of chastisement for the woman called Jezebel and those who follow her. All the rest of the references to tribulation are about Christians suffering affliction for their faith.

 

There is a serious problem with equating the concept of the great tribulation with the wrath of God. Because these ideas are two different concepts. Predominately the word “tribulation” in Scripture means the wrath of demoniacally inspired unbelievers persecuting the true believers of God. Thus, when authentic Christians are persecuted for their steadfast loyalty to the Savior Jesus Christ, they suffer tribulation. This tribulation is the wrath of Satan on genuine born again Christians. But on the other hand, “wrath” is God punishing the wicked for their sins, especially those who persecute true believers. Therefore, one concept is the wrath of God, and the other, the great tribulation, is the wrath of Satan.

Somehow through the writings of John Nelson Darby and C. I. Scofield, these concepts got intermingled and confused. To many evangelicals, Darby and Scofield are prophets of equal worth to the original 12 apostles. To them, when Scofield speaks, God must surrender to his interpretation. This is the kind of false traditionalism that many evangelicals unfortunately like. Since by their tradition, when Scofield speaks the debate is ended. And since Scofield has spoken, there is no need to test the spirits to see if they are of God. But if we really want to be true to our Reformation roots, we must examine what Darby, Scofield, Lehay, Jenkins and other pre-tribulationist say in the light of Scripture, just like anyone else.

Let’s get the definition of “tribulation” and see if it fits the Scofield / Lahay scenario. In Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, the word tribulation means “affliction.” He wrote that the great tribulation is a time when the fury (wrath) of antichristian powers are focused on the Palestinian Jews primarily, and on the Gentile witnesses of God secondarily. In other words, the great tribulation is the distress of God’s people when they are persecuted by the enemies of God. Additionally, in Arndt and Gingrich’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, tribulation is defined by the Greek words thlibo and thipsis to primarily mean the distress of Christians as they are persecuted, afflicted and troubled by outward forces and circumstances. This definition is clearly taught by our Lord as He spoke to his disciples (the church) about the end-times,

“Therefore when you (the church) see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the house-top not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:15-22)

It is therefore evident by the context of Jesus Christ’s words that the great tribulation is defined as a time of horrible persecution of God’s elect, the church, who must flee from the wrath of Satan that comes by way of the Antichrist. The prophet Daniel said this period of time would last 3 ½ years and that “the power of the holy people (saints/elect) [would be] completely shattered.” (Daniel 12:7) Therefore the elect must endure through the great tribulation. This is the plain and correct meaning of both texts. And as the Lord tells us in the Book of Revelation,

“Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’” (Revelation 7:13,14)

To come out of something means you first have to be in something. These are Christians who were martyred in the great tribulation. Thus, the great tribulation is not God’s wrath on unbelievers, but Satan’s antichristian wrath upon authentic blood bought believers in Christ. The term “elect” means anyone who is in Christ at the time.

But again, based on the writings of Scofield and other per-tribulation rapture theorists, the great tribulation is equal to the wrath of God. However, there is no evidence of this in Scripture. And because the Apostle Paul tells us Christians are not “appointed to wrath” (1 Thessalonians. 5:9), they assume Christians do not have to suffer through the great tribulation. But there is nothing in Scripture that specifically states every Christian is exempt from tribulation, including the great tribulation. In fact the opposite is true, as the Apostle Paul said, “So that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you suffer.” (II Thessalonians 1:4,5)

Some Christians may be spared persecution in the great tribulation by the Lord in His sovereignty (Revelation 3:7-13), but many others will suffer for Christ. Even today, prior to the great tribulation, many people suffer horrible persecution and tribulation in hostile parts of the world, while other Christians live in relative peace and safety. During the great tribulation, a few pockets of Christians may be spared by God, but most Christians will endure the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen. And as Christ said, unless He shortened those days, no flesh would be spared. But for the sake of the elect (the Church), he shortens those days.

There is a massive multi-million dollar industry dedicated to the assumption that the great tribulation is equal to the wrath of God. These proponents of the pre-tribulation rapture make millions of dollars writing books and making movies assuring Christian they do not have to suffer persecution or tribulation for their faith prior to the rapture. But these massive, complicated and bulky theories are held up by the flimsiest of Scriptural speculation and wordplay. It is like trying to lift the weight of an elephant off the ground using a kite string. No matter how hard you try the weight will break that string. Defining the great tribulation as the wrath of God is the kite string that can’t support the theory. It is the lynchpin that connects the whole thing. Without it, the entire theory falls apart. The Left Behind doctrines are nothing more than giant sand castles, giving people the false hope of evacuation just prior to a tsunami of end-time persecution. So instead of soberly preparing people to face the tribulation to come, the American evangelical church is throwing parties in their fortresses made of sand. Instead of putting on the whole armor of God, the church is putting on its party hat. Instead of making solid disciples, the church is making spiritual revelers, drunk on the wine of end-time myths and fables. Once these notions are dispelled, the entire theory is washed away by the reality of Christ’s sobering predictions.

I believe the Lord is calling us back to His word. Back to counting the costs involved with true discipleship and devotion to Jesus Christ. We need to stop acting like the victory is final, because there is still more to come. We need to stop the elitist mentality that assumes persecution can never happen to us. We need to stop partying like we are already in Heaven. We need to stop the complacency and tom-foolery associated with false security. We need to take off our party hats and put back on the whole armor of God so we can stand in the evil day. We need to remember God has called us to be willing to suffer tribulation for His namesake. We need to be soberly prepared to walk through the great tribulation. We need to understand once again this world is not our home, and that we are only passing through on our way to our glorious reward in the life to come. We need to be prepared, along with our brothers and sisters around the world, to give up everything, even our lives if necessary, to be with the Lord in glory.

The trouble with tribulation is that it is coming our way. Are you spiritually prepared?

 

https://pulpitandpen.org/2017/11/09/the-trouble-with-tribulation/

 

 

There is a 2000 some odd year Church Age Tribulation, a 70th week Tribulation in that all times are troubles according to Jesus and then there is a 3.5 year period of GREAT TROUBLES that will be the Greatest Troubles ever seen. Gods Wrath falls and the Anti-Christ murders and kills two billion people in his father Satans name. 

The time of the Gentile Churches mission is accomplished, thus we go to Heaven to Marry the Lamb. These are just facts. I don't really get the argument against it, you guys go to the nth degree to try and prove you are right, but you are not correct on this brother. 

It is what it is. 

[Alive]

You guys are so very sure that you are right. This is astounding to me.

I don't deny one of you or another is correct. I just don't know.

[JoeCanada]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

There is a 2000 some odd year Church Age Tribulation, a 70th week Tribulation in that all times are troubles according to Jesus and then there is a 3.5 year period of GREAT TROUBLES that will be the Greatest Troubles ever seen. Gods Wrath falls and the Anti-Christ murders and kills two billion people in his father Satans name. 

The time of the Gentile Churches mission is accomplished, thus we go to Heaven to Marry the Lamb. These are just facts. I don't really get the argument against it, you guys go to the nth degree to try and prove you are right, but you are not correct on this brother. 

It is what it is. 

Hi RM,

All that the article was trying to show was the difference between tribulation and wrath. I didn't write the article. But I did post it because there is so much confusion between tribulation and wrath.

"you guys go to the nth degree to try and prove you are right, but you are not correct on this brother."......

I'm not sure where you are coming from with this statement. What is it in the article that "you guys go to the nth degree to try and prove you are right"?

I've re-read the article several more times, and I found this statement in the second last paragraph, which perhaps you are referring to. Maybe it's the whole paragraph. But, correct me if I'm wrong:

Defining the great tribulation as the wrath of God is the kite string that can’t support the theory.

Here's the bottom line. If the pre-trib camp teaches/preaches/concludes that the 70th week is the Wrath of God because they equate Tribulation with Wrath...........

Then we have all been under God's Wrath for 2,000 years. 

[Revelation Man]

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi RM,

All that the article was trying to show was the difference between tribulation and wrath. I didn't write the article. But I did post it because there is so much confusion between tribulation and wrath.

"you guys go to the nth degree to try and prove you are right, but you are not correct on this brother."......

I'm not sure where you are coming from with this statement. What is it in the article that "you guys go to the nth degree to try and prove you are right"?

I've re-read the article several more times, and I found this statement in the second last paragraph, which perhaps you are referring to. Maybe it's the whole paragraph. But, correct me if I'm wrong:

Defining the great tribulation as the wrath of God is the kite string that can’t support the theory.

Here's the bottom line. If the pre-trib camp teaches/preaches/concludes that the 70th week is the Wrath of God because they equate Tribulation with Wrath...........

Then we have all been under God's Wrath for 2,000 years. 

For starters, God's Wrath is only 3.5 Years, not 7 years. Tribulation has nothing to do per se with God's Wrath. The TROUBLES or Greatest Troubles Ever as spoken of in Daniel 12:1-2 and in Matthew 24:20-24 is speaking of Troubles like no one has ever seen before. God's Wrath falls on this wicked world, they get the Evil King of their hearts desire, like Israel got a King God never wished for them to have. He then kills, steals and destroys. At the same time God;s Wrath falls on the wicked. The Gentiles who repent after the Rapture will either be killed by the AC or will have to dodge the plight of this wicked world, all because they did not heed God's Word, they weren't right with God at the Rapture so the doors to the Wedding was closed unto them.

There can be tribulations of the Church for the 2000 year Church Age and the 70th week can be Tribulations for those Christians AND we can still have a GREATEST EVER TROUBLES for 3.5 years. We can walk and chew gum at the same time so to speak. Those TROUBLES include the AC/Beast murdering the 2/3 of the Jews who do not repent {Zechariah 13:8-9}. The 1/3 who do repent are in Petra. The Church is in Heaven. 

There can be Tribulation/Trials of the Church as Satan comes against us as best he can, and then there can be God's Judgment, they are two different things, Noah had TROUBLES, but the world had God's Wrath, at the same time, Noah still had troubles, he had to survive in a boat/Ark for months on end. We have had tribulation for 2000 years, we won't be here for the 70th week, the Church Age {time of the Gentiles} is finished when the 70th week begins. We go to Heaven to marry the Lamb, we are CLEARLY SEEN in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened and in Rev. 7:9-16 AFTER the Seals are opened, we come back with Jesus in Rev. 19. 

The Jews are the Wheat, the Wicked are the Tares. 

That was my whole point, the article makes no sense brother, you can have TROUBLES then the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES and Gods Wrath can co-exist at the same time !! The Remnant Church tarried and thus they must needs suffer, they are left out of the Wedding like the 5 foolish virgins.

If Christian men are in the midst of the Anti-Christ who is murdering people AND are seeing the trees burn, sea turn to blood etc. etc. BOTH are going to effect their lives, all because they tarried. Those are both TROUBLES, and in essence because God ALLOWED the Anti-Christ to go forth, its all God's Wrath. But God doesn't mandate Satan kill/murder 2 billion people, He just allows it. Mankind gets their TYRANT. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

23 hours ago, Cletus said:

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Immediately AFTER the Tribulation Jesus returns with the Church. That is no great mystery. You guys seem to assume that the Church is still on earth, even though Rev. 19 tells us the Church comes back with Jesus on White Horses to DESTROY the Beast. You are right, it is very simple.

Too many people have tunnel vision. They see what they want to see or shall we say what they have been trained to see.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Revelation Man

[JoeCanada]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

For starters, God's Wrath is only 3.5 Years, not 7 years. Tribulation has nothing to do per se with God's Wrath. The TROUBLES or Greatest Troubles Ever as spoken of in Daniel 12:1-2 and in Matthew 24:20-24 is speaking of Troubles like no one has ever seen before. God's Wrath falls on this wicked world, they get the Evil King of their hearts desire, like Israel got a King God never wished for them to have. He then kills, steals and destroys. At the same time God;s Wrath falls on the wicked. The Gentiles who repent after the Rapture will either be killed by the AC or will have to dodge the plight of this wicked world, all because they did not heed God's Word, they weren't right with God at the Rapture so the doors to the Wedding was closed unto them.

There can be tribulations of the Church for the 2000 year Church Age and the 70th week can be Tribulations for those Christians AND we can still have a GREATEST EVER TROUBLES for 3.5 years. We can walk and chew gum at the same time so to speak. Those TROUBLES include the AC/Beast murdering the 2/3 of the Jews who do not repent {Zechariah 13:8-9}. The 1/3 who do repent are in Petra. The Church is in Heaven. 

There can be Tribulation/Trials of the Church as Satan comes against us as best he can, and then there can be God';s Judgment, they are two different things, Noah had TROUBLES, but the world had God's Wrath, at the same time, Noah still had troubles, he had to survive in a boat/Ark for months on end. We have had tribulation for 2000 years, we won't be here for the 790th week, the Church Age {time of the Gentiles} is finished when the 70th week begins. We go to Heaven to marry the Lamb, we are CLEARLY SEEN in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened and in Rev. 7:9-16 AFTER the Seals are opened, we come back with Jesus in Rev. 19. 

The Jews are the Wheat, the Wicked are the Tares. 

That was my whole point, the article makes no sense brother, you can have TROUBLES then the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES and Gods Wrath can co-exist at the same time !! The Remnant Church tarried and thus they must needs suffer, they are left out of the Wedding like the 5 foolish virgins.

If Christian men are in the midst of the Anti-Christ murdering people AND are seeing the trees burn, sea turn to blood etc. etc. BOTH are going to effect their lives, all because they tarried. Those are both TROUBLES, and in essence because God ALLOWED the Anti-Christ to go forth, its all God's Wrath. But God doesn't mandate Satan kill/murder 2 billion people, He just allows it. Mankind gets their TYRANT. 

Hi RM,

"For starters, God's Wrath is only 3.5 Years, not 7 years." ...........

I Disagree. Isaiah tells us 3 times that God's Wrath, the Day of the Lord, last for ONE year.

Isaiah 34:8........For the Lord has a Day of vengeance, a YEAR of recompense for the cause of Zion"........Here Isaiah is saying that The Lord's DAY starts on a DAY and lasts a YEAR

Isaiah 61:2........To proclaim the favorable YEAR of the Lord, and the DAY of vengeance of our God"......Again, begins on a DAY and lasts a YEAR

Isaiah 63: 4.....For the DAY of vengeance was in My heart, and My year of redemption has come"......Third time.....Day and YEAR

How long was Noah and company in the ark when God poured out His wrath on the ungodly? It was one YEAR. Jesus tells us...."As it was in the days of Noah".....Luke 17:26, Matt 24:37

There are four witnesses in Scripture. Each testify to the Day of the Lord being ONE YEAR long, when He pours out His Wrath on the ungodly.

In Isaiah, we read that the "Lord alone will be exalted in that DAY"......Isaiah 2:11, 2:17. Most of Isaiah chapter 2 speaks about the Day of the Lord.

God will not share His "exaltation" with another. He alone will be exalted in that DAY. It is His Wrath. Satan's wrath is over and done with.... during the Tribulation. God shortens the Tribulation of 3 1/2 years by a year. 

"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."....Mathew 24:22

The "Great Tribulation" ................. "Great" meaning widespread. The Greek word is "megas"........ There can't be any greater tribulation than what millions of Christians have suffered over the past centuries. No sir! The Great Tribulation will be global, widespread. Intense? You bet! Satan will not hold back unleashing his terror against the Church and the Jews. 

We will get raptured. Matthew 24:29-31    

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi RM,

"For starters, God's Wrath is only 3.5 Years, not 7 years." ...........

I Disagree. Isaiah tells us 3 times that God's Wrath, the Day of the Lord, last for ONE year.

Isaiah 34:8........For the Lord has a Day of vengeance, a YEAR of recompense for the cause of Zion"........Here Isaiah is saying that The Lord's DAY starts on a DAY and lasts a YEAR

Isaiah 61:2........To proclaim the favorable YEAR of the Lord, and the DAY of vengeance of our God"......Again, begins on a DAY and lasts a YEAR

Isaiah 63: 4.....For the DAY of vengeance was in My heart, and My year of redemption has come"......Third time.....Day and YEAR

And you totally missed the juxtaposition of how you mandate YEAR to be a year but not DAY to be one day. Thing about it !! Just like the Day of the Lord is not ONE DAY but the day Gods Wrath begins, the verse you cite are speaking of a YEAR in which it begins. By saying its a year, you readily admit its not one day, even though its also called the Day of the Lord.  So therefore I submit its also not a year, its a period of time that lasts 3.5 years in length. If it starts in the n=middle of the week, and lasts until Jesus' return, logic tells that is 3.5 years. Scriptures tells us the same thing. The Seals are opened on day 1261, the Last Vial is Jesus destroying the Nations at Vial #7 {Rev. 16:9}. 

As a matter of fact the 2nd verse you use should prove my point to you, it reverses the Year and the Day, the Day comes second, this should have been a sign to you brother. God is speaking about a DAY that comes to pass in a pre-determined YEAR. What I find in people who do not do this for ones calling as per a 24/7/365 calling is they all to often allow themselves to be led where they want to go as per the scriptures. Something I learned years ago is there is a kinda SPIRIT of the Bible that just doesn't fit unless we get it right, its hard to explain, but you know the verses here a little there a little, we have to put a bunch of the puzzle together to see the bigger picture. Gods Wrath comes on a DAY and that day is IN A YEAR, so that is what God is pointing to, I know that is obvious, but the Day nor the Year is even Gods point in those passages, He can't tell us the date, but He tells us there is a day and a year which my vengeance will fall upon mankind.

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

God will not share His "exaltation" with another. He alone will be exalted in that DAY. It is His Wrath. Satan's wrath is over and done with.... during the Tribulation. God shortens the Tribulation of 3 1/2 years by a year. 

"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."....Mathew 24:22

God shortens nothing, that is men misunderstanding the scriptures. The ORIGINAL PLAN shortened the Beasts reign to 3.5 years as the Beast, God doesn't have to redo His plans. Jesus was saying, the 3.5 years the Beast will be in power is all we could allow him to reign, any longer and no men would have been left on earth at all. People take that verse and twist it, or misunderstand Jesus' words. 

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

The "Great Tribulation" ................. "Great" meaning widespread. The Greek word is "megas"........ There can't be any greater tribulation than what millions of Christians have suffered over the past centuries. No sir! The Great Tribulation will be global, widespread. Intense? You bet! Satan will not hold back unleashing his terror against the Church and the Jews. 

 

That is not what Jesus and Gabriel said in Daniel 12, they said it would be the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES. What ever that means is what it means. And yes there can be a greater trouble because God can be talking about at ANY GIVEN POINT in time. And 4 Billion people will be killed in this time anyway, so it will be more deaths/murders than all other years combined. 

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

We will get raptured. Matthew 24:29-31    

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

No one is raptured nor needs to be raptured via Matt. 24:29-31, that is Jesus' Second Coming, it makes no sense to go to meet Jesus just to come back down to earth. Its just nonsensical brother. That is the Church and Jesus returning to earth together, just like Rev. 19 says. I guess you just refuse to read Rev. 19 hey ? It surprises me that as many times as I squash Matt. 24:29-31 you guys still use it, I don't get it, I couldn't use that verse in that manner again, but I guess that is all you guys have. I don't know why you so desire the Rapture to be at the very end, when it is not, but we will be Raptured before the 7oth week. Don't lock in to stances so fast, I went over 20 years without locking in, I thought it was pre-trib, but I never said I knew until I knew, once I went a journey to find out the facts it became very obvious very fast because Rev. 19 was an easy read. 

[iamlamad]

On 11/3/2019 at 11:21 AM, Cletus said:

the real trouble with the tribulation is people do not acknowledge scripture when it gives chronological order.  that and God is specific with His words and we have people going around saying things like there are scriptures to back up pre, mid, and post trib teachings.  no there is not.  there is scripture to back up one of those and the other two is misinterpreted.  lets try and simplify this trouble with scripture, plainly written scripture:

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

also go back to the passage and see the abomination of desolation comes previous to these three scriptures.

Mar 13:24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

if people cant understand the simplicity of these three chapters with the same exact chronological order,  with God giving confirmation in the mouth of three witnesses, how then shall people gain understanding when it gets complicated with the 70 weeks in daniel?  bottom line... you cant.   There is no get out of tribulation free card found in scripture.  You better be solid in Christ, and in your faith, because the time thats coming  is going to offer you a temptation to save your life but in doing so, in picking the easy way, you will loose your life.  there is a very good reason in the book of Daniel them three hebrew boys did what they did.  they would not bow, and God was with them in the fire.  They did not bow the knee. 

You have done very well in showing by scripture that there is A GATHERING that comes after the days of tribulation and when Christ comes. The problem is, proving this gathering is Paul's rapture. This problem is insurmountable! Why? Because they are two different gatherings over  7 years apart - and they gather from different locations.  Paul is quite clear that HIS gathering, the rapture of the church, will come JUST BEFORE God's wrath begins - and John shows us that is at the 6th seal in Rev. 6. The 70th week then starts at the 7th seal - so CLEARLY pretrib.

[OldCoot]

Many wrongly confuse the Great Tribulation as being the full 7 years.  That doesn't line up.  The GT is actually starts at the mid point and is the last 42 months / 3.5 years / 1260 days of that 70th week / 7 year time frame.

According to Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, the removal or gathering of the righteous unto the Lord occurs at point before or when the son of perdition / pseudo christ is revealed.  And that character is the one who confirms the covenant of Daniel 9 to start off the 7 years and breaks it at the mid point of the 7 years.  By default, he has to be revealed to confirm a covenant.

As far as catching ups, raptures, etc, there have been several.   Enoch and Elijah for instance.  The resurrected saints of Matthew 27.  While there is no amplification the text that these saints were caught up, being it was the day of the First Fruits and according to Leviticus 23, the High Priest (Yeshua - Jesus) is required to offer the First Fruits of harvest to the Father.  And to do that, He must remain ceremonially pure.  This is why when Mary tried to touch Him, he told her not to since He had not yet ascended to the Father.  Matthew 20:17.  And many early Church writers who either knew the apostles or their students wrote that these resurrected saints were taken to the Father.  

Never is it said that there is a harpazo, catching up, etc at the end of the 7 year period, at the end of the GT.  In fact, Joel 3 and Matthew 25 go into significant detail that the population of the world at the time of Yeshua's (Jesus) physical return will be separated and judged and the condemned will be carted off.   And the basis of the condemnation is how they treated Yeshua's brethren, the Hebrew people.  Joel 3 makes that very clear and Matthew 25 is a expositional commentary by Yeshua on Joel 3.

When it comes down to it, the only two positions of a rapture / catching away / gathering / caught up / harpazo that has any real validity in scripture is the pre-70th week  and possibly the mid 70th week positions.  Everything else really falls flat in the face of textual evidence.

As the Torah requires, a matter can only be decided on the testimony of at least 2 witnesses.  The Bereans in Acts 17 gave us that model.  They searched the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught them was true.  They only had the OT.  What Paul and the Apostle taught later became codified in the NT.  So for any position on these things to have support, it must have textual support in both the OT and NT.   And there is quite a bit of evidence in the OT for a pre 70th week position, and at the very least, a mid 70th week position.  Nothing else comes close.

I guess if one really wanted to be technical about things, both of those qualify as pre - wrath 

Edited December 1, 2019 by OldCoot