Alive Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.66 Reputation: 9,009 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) My guess is that the 'apostasy' is directly connected to the man of perdition and the falling away that is derived from his actions. I do not see a connection to the 'Church'. Edited December 1, 2019 by Alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoot Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) Lets' step back a little. I think we can agree that there will be a general departing from the faith by many at the end of the church age. The letters to the churches in Revelation shows that as does Paul's concern that when he departed, savage wolves would come in and screw things up. There has always been "falling away" or "departing from the faith" in church history. It doesn't support the idea that a "falling away" is a specific condition of the son of perdition being revealed, else he would have shown up already. But we need to be more literal and stay within the context of a particular passage if we are making a case about specific doctrine. The context is clearly regarding the day of the Lord and our gathering to Him. Then it lays out the details that "that" day (day of Christ) will not come until the departing comes first. And thus within the context of the passage, departing has to be the gathering. The Vulgate uses dicessio. And that has a meaning of a physical, spatial departure and not a spiritual one. So that is evidence that translators prior to the KJV also understood it to be a physical, spatial, distancing departure, which is what a gathering to Him would involve. And virtually every English translation prior to the KJV used "departure" only and not a "falling away". For instance..... 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. Edited December 1, 2019 by OldCoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.66 Reputation: 9,009 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) Interesting. I just looked at: Bishop's Douay-Rheims Darby Geneva Websters Weymouth None of these translate it as departure or any derivative. Correction----Geneva does. Edited December 1, 2019 by Alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.66 Reputation: 9,009 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 1, 2019 2Th. 2:1 Nowe we beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, and by our assembling vnto him, 2 That ye be not suddenly mooued from your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs, as though the day of Christ were at hand. 3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition, 4 Which is an aduersarie, and exalteth him selfe against all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God, shewing him selfe that he is God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.10 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 1, 2019 17 minutes ago, OldCoot said: Lets' step back a little. I think we can agree that there will be a general departing from the faith by many at the end of the church age. The letters to the churches in Revelation shows that as does Paul's concern that when he departed, savage wolves would come in and screw things up. There has always been "falling away" or "departing from the faith" in church history. It doesn't support the idea that a "falling away" is a specific condition of the son of perdition being revealed, else he would have shown up already. But we need to be more literal and stay within the context of a particular passage if we are making a case about specific doctrine. The context is clearly regarding the day of the Lord and our gathering to Him. Then it lays out the details that "that" day (day of Christ) will not come until the departing comes first. And thus within the context of the passage, departing has to be the gathering. The Vulgate uses dicessio. And that has a meaning of a physical, spatial departure and not a spiritual one. So that is evidence that translators prior to the KJV also understood it to be a physical, spatial, distancing departure, which is what a gathering to Him would involve. And virtually every English translation prior to the KJV used "departure" only and not a "falling away". For instance..... 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. Well done, Old Coot! When one understands that in verse 3b the man of sin IS revealed, and that verses 6-8 tell us that he cannot be revealed until the one restraining is "taken out of the way," Then there is no other choice but that somewhere in verse 3a the one restraining HAS BEEN "taken out of the way." The only possibility is that "apostasia" is the departing or gathering of the church which was Paul's theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.66 Reputation: 9,009 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 1, 2019 But still--the word at its root and connotation relates to sin and rebellion as I see it, so departing still works. I am unclear as to just what you are trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.66 Reputation: 9,009 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, iamlamad said: Well done, Old Coot! When one understands that in verse 3b the man of sin IS revealed, and that verses 6-8 tell us that he cannot be revealed until the one restraining is "taken out of the way," Then there is no other choice but that somewhere in verse 3a the one restraining HAS BEEN "taken out of the way." The only possibility is that "apostasia" is the departing or gathering of the church which was Paul's theme. I am sorry--but this seems to be quite a stretch. That word has meaning and meanings count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.10 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 1, 2019 21 minutes ago, Alive said: My guess is that the 'apostasy' is directly connected to the man of perdition and the falling away that is derived from his actions. I do not see a connection to the 'Church'. Apostasia has to be the one restraining "taken out of the way" because in 3b the man of sin IS revealed. Verses 6 through 8 tell us he cannot be revealed until the one restraining has been taken out of the way. Therefore, we have a choice: which makes more sense in context as far as restraining: 1. people departing from the faith 2. People departing as in the gathering? Strong's shows us that "apostasia" comes from two Greek words, Apo and Stasia. I8t is a compound word. Under Apo (G575) Strong's says: of separation of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,... of separation of a part from the whole where of a whole some part is taken This fits the gathering (the theme of the passage) to a "T". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.10 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Alive said: I am sorry--but this seems to be quite a stretch. That word has meaning and meanings count. See my last post. Edited December 1, 2019 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.10 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, Alive said: But still--the word at its root and connotation relates to sin and rebellion as I see it, so departing still works. I am unclear as to just what you are trying to say. It means "departing;" Which can be a departing from the faith OR a departing in general: It is a compound word: APO a departing of a PART from a WHOLE Stasia a standing as if not moving. at the rapture, a PART of the WHOLE is going to be taken out of the way SO FAST it will be as if the rest of the world did not move: were stationary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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