The Trouble with Tribulation

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

@dhchristianMy eyes and head are tired. I have been reading and setting up a study format to begin to look at the scriptures pertaining to the last days.

Thanks to you and others, I have thought to do this. We will see if He sheds any light toward me.

:-)

I suspect, all the specifics will remain unclear, but I have asked the Lord for clarity. Honestly, I have no sense either way at this time.

Thanks again.

YOu will find this forum and forums in general as a veritable maze: with many opposing views. I can only suggest you read a post, then check the scriptures, if any and see if you think they are using the scriptures accurately.  One thing is for sure: two can read the same scripture and come up with two different opinions as to the Author's intent - based on their preconceptions. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Alive said:

I get that---what is that 'not touch the ground bit'?

It was referring to HOW FAST Alexander conquered the entire middle east part of the world.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Alive said:

What do you make of:

Dan. 8:5   And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. ⁶ Then he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing beside the river, and ran at him with furious power. ⁷ And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand.

Dan. 8:8   Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. ⁹ And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. ¹⁰ And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. ¹¹ He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.

Some things to note in Daniel 8: the ENTIRE CHAPTER is about Persia, then Alexander the Great, then his four generals, then at the latter time of THEIR kingdom - meaning the latter time of the GREEK kingdom established by Alexander. Many people see "the end" and imagine it is talking about our future. It is not: IN CONTEXT it is talking about Antiochus Epiphanes and the 2300 days is how many days it was after Antiochus defiled the temple and stopped the sacrifices until the temple was cleansed.

The truth is, NOTHING in this chapter is about our future, except in TYPES.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Alive said:

I don't mean it to be critical at all---but the folks here at the forum all have pet doctrines and have scriptures to 'prove' them.

:-)

You must examine each scripture used to "prove" something and decide for yourself if they are using that scripture accurately. It is not easy, for you may have preconceptions that make it difficult to see through or around.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Alive said:

No need--I just pulled up those and many more across the old and new.

Lots of cross references in Daniel and Jeremiah as connected to the NT references.

As I have said before, I have not spent time in the past on these things.

I think perhaps, maybe I will---Lord willing.

I have read on this forum in the last weeks---a number of things that seem very strange to me and bear searching out.

At this point, I am inclined to see the Lord coming for us mid-week, but we will see.

Again--I have never really studied it, as my attention has been elsewhere.

One thing to keep in mind concerning the rapture. When Paul wrote it, He said it was secret: meaning, no one else knew until Paul knew - that those alive in Christ would be CHANGED and caught up. 

In other words, to find the timing to PAUL'S rapture, you must study Paul. You will find in 1 Thes. 5 that Paul tells us WHEN in relation to other things. 

Next, consider that here is going to be more than one "gathering."  Finally, if you do read of a gathering, study where it gathers from. Paul's rapture is going to gather from the earth, not from heaven.

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Alive said:

Looking at the word ἀποστασία and where else it is used it only shows up one other time in the NT and twice in the old using the LXX.

There is always the connotation of rebellion and departure from the truth.

 

Acts 21:21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses,

Josh. 22:22 God even God is the Lord, and God even God himself knows, and Israel he shall know; if we have transgressed before the Lord by apostasy, let him not deliver us this day.

2Chr. 29:19 and all the vessels which king Achaz polluted in his reign, in his apostasy, we have prepared and purified: behold, they are before the altar of the Lord.

 

Alive, please take careful note: there is nothing in that Greek word "apostasia" that tells WHAT is being departed FROM.  That is why in Acts 21:21 Luke added the word Moses: they had departed from Moses. IF you have access to strongs, look at the word where apostasia can from: it is a similar  word. Then see what that word came from. Eventually you will discover the two words together that make up this compound word. It is APO and Stasia. 

In other words, in 2 Thes 2:3 that is nothing there telling us what is being departed from. So we have to get that from the context. Paul gives us a big hint when he gives us the theme of the passage. 

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

OF course it does, for it is the intent or the Author. However, preconceptions cloud minds. 

Here is Strong's for APO: HALF the compound word "apostasia."

of separation

of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance

physical, of distance of place

temporal, of distance of time

DH, you have to ask yourself, did Paul know everything there was to know at the time about this word? You know he did - and He chose it. 

Note: THEME of passage is the rapture, which will most certainly be a departing of the church to heaven.

Note: verse 6 through 8 is very clear, the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the one restraining is taken out of the way.

Yet, if we back up to verse 3b the man of sin IS revealed. That means some time BEFORE verse 3b the one restraining had to have been "taken out of the way."  The ONLY word you can find in 3a that comes close to something being "taken out of the way," is in the word, apostasia.

YOU CHOOSE:

It can be people departing from the faith.

It can be people departing the planet as in the gathering or rapture.

For the first, there are problems: in is not just a departing, it is THE departing: a very significant one. In Paul's argument, this has to be something recognizable so they can say: "ah! This is Paul was writing about. Now the man of sin can be revealed.  But a question for those that believe it is a falling away from the faith: how in the world would anyone know when ENOUGH had fallen away to know it was THE falling away Paul spoke of?

For the second choice, the departing of the church, IT FITS PAUL'S theme. The other choice does not.

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day [the Day of the Lord] will not come unless the gathering comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Note: there are many many translations that use "Day of the Lord" for the simple fact that some of the Greek manuscripts have "Day of the Lord."

This verse make perfect sense as written here. 

our rapture is contingent upon our departing coming first   You are right, what you wrote makes NO sense. I don't know how you got it.  It is certainly not what Paul wrote.

What really does not make sense is the way the KJV translated it. I cannot comprehend how evil -  a significant falling away (from faith?)  - can restrain the man of sin. It makes far more sense that it is God the Holy Spirit doing the restraining, using the authority of the church.

Look at how much twisting you have to do to make your comment acceptable, Compare that to my simple critique, and any honest person who searching for the Truth should see something here. Common sense dictates the Truth. The Fact is this falling away from the truth is also spoken of in numerous other passages so this is not the only one. For example. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith(verb form of apostacy), giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1 Timothy 4:1

The Point here being you can take a dictionary such as Strong's and get it to say anything you want by using the multiple meanings of suffixes and root words that violate the simple grammatical intent of the author. COMMON SENSE tells me you are wrong as were those early translators whose Greek was not so good as what we know now today, and this disinformation has been around for years propagated by those who WANT to see the pre-trib Rapture there. But Logically these verses are evidence against the pre-trib rapture, and support for the Chronology of end times events as Outlined by Jesus in the Olivet discourse, which also states clearly that the falling away from Truth and the revealing of the man of sin via the abomination committed comes first.

But as @ENOCH2010 said; "One thing I've learned over the years is the pre-trib crowd can "make it up as the go" and have no thought of the damage they do to the word of God."

 

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

One thing to keep in mind concerning the rapture. When Paul wrote it, He said it was secret: meaning, no one else knew until Paul knew - that those alive in Christ would be CHANGED and caught up. 

In other words, to find the timing to PAUL'S rapture, you must study Paul. You will find in 1 Thes. 5 that Paul tells us WHEN in relation to other things. 

Next, consider that here is going to be more than one "gathering."  Finally, if you do read of a gathering, study where it gathers from. Paul's rapture is going to gather from the earth, not from heaven.

Let Him do His own study and be led by the Holy Ghost, instead of filling his head with your pet doctrines, and let's see what he comes up with. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Look at how much twisting you have to do to make your comment acceptable, Compare that to my simple critique, and any honest person who searching for the Truth should see something here. Common sense dictates the Truth. The Fact is this falling away from the truth is also spoken of in numerous other passages so this is not the only one. For example. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith(verb form of apostacy), giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1 Timothy 4:1

The Point here being you can take a dictionary such as Strong's and get it to say anything you want by using the multiple meanings of suffixes and root words that violate the simple grammatical intent of the author. COMMON SENSE tells me you are wrong as were those early translators whose Greek was not so good as what we know now today, and this disinformation has been around for years propagated by those who WANT to see the pre-trib Rapture there. But Logically these verses are evidence against the pre-trib rapture, and support for the Chronology of end times events as Outlined by Jesus in the Olivet discourse, which also states clearly that the falling away from Truth and the revealing of the man of sin via the abomination committed comes first.

But as @ENOCH2010 said; "One thing I've learned over the years is the pre-trib crowd can "make it up as the go" and have no thought of the damage they do to the word of God."

 

I think you need to learn the difference between twisting and understanding. there is a HUGE difference. But again, hard to see with strong preconceptions clouding the view. 

Common sense is that in 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED, and more common sense (Just reading and believing what is written) tells us that the one restraining MUST BE removed before the man of sin can be "IS revealed" as Paul wrote. No twisting here, but reading the text as given.  I know, some want to pretend Paul didn't write "is revealed." Go ahead, check it with every English translation. 

It IS TRUTH that "some" will depart from the faith, but can that be enough that Paul would write THE apostasia?" How would anyone know when enough has fallen away to be THE falling away? The truth is, when some fall away MORE COME. The church is GROWING worldwide, not shrinking. 

Pure logic forces one to notice, when the man of sin IS revealed, that the one restraining has to have been "taken out of the way."

However, if you wish to believe that evil restrains evil, as in a falling away (from what is not given) being the restraining removed - then go ahead and believe it. Since in 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED, then in 3a the restrainer has been removed. Find any other word that is something taken out of the way.

Go ahead and be watching for the Beast to come first. However, PLEASE read Hebrews 9, the last verse first? There will be consequences to what we believe. 

Note: I personally think Paul wanted to disguise the rapture or gathering in this letter in case it fell into the wrong hands. Those that got is first letter would be able to understand. But suppose a Roman soldier read it? What would he get out of it? Nothing! Notice that after Paul gave away WHO the restrainer is (the church being departed) but did it in a hidden manner, He then wrote, NOW YOU KNOW.  There is a REASON Paul wrote those words.  You are not going to get it in a first reading; that is why Paul wrote these words.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Let Him do His own study and be led by the Holy Ghost, instead of filling his head with your pet doctrines, and let's see what he comes up with. 

I can tell a lot from what you have come up with.