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The Trouble with Tribulation


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10 hours ago, Alive said:

Looking at the word ἀποστασία and where else it is used it only shows up one other time in the NT and twice in the old using the LXX.

There is always the connotation of rebellion and departure from the truth.

 

Acts 21:21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses,

Josh. 22:22 God even God is the Lord, and God even God himself knows, and Israel he shall know; if we have transgressed before the Lord by apostasy, let him not deliver us this day.

2Chr. 29:19 and all the vessels which king Achaz polluted in his reign, in his apostasy, we have prepared and purified: behold, they are before the altar of the Lord.

 

Wow.  Y'all been having  a lot of fun while I have been away!   Some of us actually have other things that take up our time and cannot stay glued to computer screens.   Would be great to have more time for fun debate and discussion.

Onto the meat.....

Remember how I stated that for apostasia to imply a defection, rebellion, falling away, etc and not simply a departure, there has to be something the passage the amplifies apostasia to make it hold that meaning. Apostasia's meaning is derived from the context it is used in.   

In both the OT passages from the LXX, there is amplification that would support that.  In Joshua 22:22, that amplification is "transgressed" and "polluted".  It is clear in the passage that sin is in play.   In 2 Chronicles 29:19, yet again, "polluted" is the amplification implying sin and rebellion.

Likewise, in Acts 21:21, the implication is desertion from Moses, or more appropriately, the Torah.  That is why the translators used forsake, or they could have likewise used "revolt against Torah", "depart from Torah", etc. In the context of this passage taking place in Jerusalem, Paul is being falsely accused of swaying the Jews in the diaspora to give up the Torah.  He never did.   Paul was a Pharisee's Pharisee.  He was one of the most learned Rabbinical scholars of his day, having studied under Gamliel I.  Nothing  he taught told his fellow Hebrews to forsake the Torah.

But there is nothing in the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 that or the verses surrounding it, that supports using apostasia as a defection, revolt, rebellion, falling away, etc.   There is no sin or any other action that amplifies aspostosia to support a "falling away".   It simply stands on its own as departure, a departure, the departure, a departing, the departing, etc.

And given the context of the passage.... the day of Christ and our gathering unto Him..... apostasia has to simply mean "departure", and in that context of "our gathering unto Him" implies a physical, spatial departure.

It really is just that simple.  If it were not for translator screw ups, we would not need to fiddle with this text.  After all, every English translation prior to the KJV and the Latin Vulgate got it right.... departure.   It seems the KJV translators interjected their Church of England's post millennial interpretation on the text and came up with "falling away".  At best, they were just plain lazy and not adhering to proper Greek grammatical structure.  I'll cut 'em some slack and assume it was the latter.

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Just now, iamlamad said:

It IS TRUTH that "some" will depart from the faith, but can that be enough that Paul would write THE apostasia?" How would anyone know when enough has fallen away to be THE falling away? The truth is, when some fall away MORE COME. The church is GROWING worldwide, not shrinking. 

The falling away is coupled with the revealing of the Antichrist and the worship of him. Those who love the Truth are the minority, and even now, many would rather believe false sages and false prophets than the Word of God in simplicity. When God sends the strong delusion they will invariably go after the delusion willingly.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2:8-12)

As You can see, the falling away is coupled with the rise of the beast and the false Prophet. Simple, plain reading of the passage. 

@Diaste wrote the following on another topic in eschatology which I agree with...

What withholds is the apostasy and the revealing of the beast, what is withheld is the Return of Jesus and the gathering, to wit:

 

1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 

2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us,

alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come.  3Let no one deceive you in any way, for

it (The Day of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 

6And you know what (rebellion and revealing) is now restraining him (Jesus), so that he (Jesus) may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work,

but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 

There is an issue with the above underlined phrase. If you check the Greek for "but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. " you will see it literally says "hold fast until he emerges from the middle" and is not analogous for "the Holy Spirit is restraining evil" or, "Micheal is restraining the beast."

What this says is 'the one who now restrains "it", which is the Return and the Gathering, will continue until 'he is taken out of the way' which is to say "he will no longer have a restraining influence as he has been revealed". Further, when he is taken out of the way, literally 'emerges from the middle' he is revealed as Paul says, "And then the lawless one will be revealed".

This is the only correct understanding of this passage. 

So Paul was not trying to hide anything from Roman soldiers, His Words are plain and easy to understand if one does not have the agenda and pet doctrine of the pre-trib rapture in mind. But alas you come at it with your preconceived pet doctrine, and cannot see the simplicity, and it is the same as our discussions on the chronology of Revelation. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The falling away is coupled with the revealing of the Antichrist and the worship of him. Those who love the Truth are the minority, and even now, many would rather believe false sages and false prophets than the Word of God in simplicity. When God sends the strong delusion they will invariably go after the delusion willingly.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2:8-12)

As You can see, the falling away is coupled with the rise of the beast and the false Prophet. Simple, plain reading of the passage. 

@Diaste wrote the following on another topic in eschatology which I agree with...

What withholds is the apostasy and the revealing of the beast, what is withheld is the Return of Jesus and the gathering, to wit:

 

1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 

2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us,

alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come.  3Let no one deceive you in any way, for

it (The Day of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 

6And you know what (rebellion and revealing) is now restraining him (Jesus), so that he (Jesus) may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work,

but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 

There is an issue with the above underlined phrase. If you check the Greek for "but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. " you will see it literally says "hold fast until he emerges from the middle" and is not analogous for "the Holy Spirit is restraining evil" or, "Micheal is restraining the beast."

What this says is 'the one who now restrains "it", which is the Return and the Gathering, will continue until 'he is taken out of the way' which is to say "he will no longer have a restraining influence as he has been revealed". Further, when he is taken out of the way, literally 'emerges from the middle' he is revealed as Paul says, "And then the lawless one will be revealed".

This is the only correct understanding of this passage. 

So Paul was not trying to hide anything from Roman soldiers, His Words are plain and easy to understand if one does not have the agenda and pet doctrine of the pre-trib rapture in mind. But alas you come at it with your preconceived pet doctrine, and cannot see the simplicity, and it is the same as our discussions on the chronology of Revelation. 

 

11 hours ago, dhchristian said:

 

The falling away is coupled with the revealing of the Antichrist  Sorry, the "coupled" is only in a sentence -  not in reality. But IN that sentence we read that the apostasia has to come FIRST. And why is that? Paul tells us in verses 7 & 8:

7  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, 8 and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming.  HCSB

Notice the bolded text: the revealing is simply NOT GOING TO HAPPEN UNTIL the one restraining is removed: taken out of the way. It is a logical statement: WHEN - THEN, so not difficult: WHEN the one restraining is removed, THEN the man of sin can be revealed. 

Now, let's see again what comes FIRST:

HCSB    Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy [apostasia - a departing] comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

It is whatever Paul meant by his use of the word apostasia that must come first. You imagine a "falling away," but it is really THE apostasia. In other words a very significant one. And make no mistake, it comes BEFORE the man of sin is revealed. We could ask then, WHY is there a significant departing (supposedly from the faith) before anyone knows anything about the man of sin?

As You can see, the falling away is coupled with the rise of the beast and the false Prophet  And THIS is why we disagree so much: we read texts differently. The text tells us the apostasia comes BEFORE the rise of the Beast and False Prophet - as a way to RELEASE them to do what they will do.

Since you have done great damage to verses 6, let's look at it together:

4  He [the man of sin] opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

5  Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? 6  And you know what currently restrains him [the man of sin], so that he will be revealed in his time.

DH, you cannot rewrite scripture to fit a theory. You amaze me. This passage is about the man of sin who will turn into the BEAST; it is not about Christ Jesus. It is about the one who will make believe he is GOD. 

"hold fast until he emerges from the middle"    Someone just wrote on a thread here than someone can make a scripture say almost anything by using the different meanings in the Greek.  This is what you have done. 

I have been there and done that: I made columns of the various meanings in Greek for ever word: then picked ones that made the most sense. 

 

 
YLT  for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now [will hinder] -- till he may be out of the way,
Another says "will be taken from the midst;"
Weymoth put it:  "restraining influence is removed,"
Darby put it:  "until he be gone"
 
One thing is sure: no translator has ever put it as "emerges from the middle," and I doubt anyone will. 
 
Restraining someone is not a difficult concept. The devil wants to get his man revealed and so start the days of GT when HE can do what he wants. But God controls time and is simply not going to allow the man of sin to be revealed until it is the RIGHT time. 
It is really amazing (and telling) how you come up with things no bible translator has written before.
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On 10/24/2019 at 5:19 PM, iamlamad said:

NOPE! Rev 7:14-17. They, the saints from Adam to the 7th seal, they are all there.  Nope. The GT written in chapter 7 is just general everyday great tribulation. It is NOT the days of GT Jesus spoke of, and cannot be, for John has not yet arrived at the START of the week, much less arrived at the midpoint. (the midpoint of the week is marked by the 7th trumpet.) And as I pointed out, the days of GT Jesus spoke of causing beheadings will not begin until chapter 15, which fits what Jesus said perfectly.  Remember, the two words, "great tribulation" were not enough for Jesus to describe those days, because there are OTHER times of GT. So Jesus added, these are very special days of GT, so that it has never happened before nor ever will.  Did you not notice John wrote those two words together in chapter 2, definitely NOT refering to the days Jesus was talking about.   Next, this crowd too large to number is NOT Old Testament saints! John wrote, "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."  These can ONLY be New Testament saints. 

NOPE!......Isaiah 2:17 tell us that the Lord alone will be exalted in that Day:  Wrong again! He IS exalted! He is above all principalities  and powers. He is FAR above the Beast and His 42 months of reigning. It was our LORD that gave the Beast his 42 months. 

But it's good to see that you are acknowledging that the saints will be around when Satan is beheading. But the saints won't be around when God is pouring out His Wrath against all ungodliness and sin. That's the trumpet and bowls........God's Wrath. That's from chapter 8 onward.  Sorry, but this is rearranging, which is simply not permitted.  The CHURCH certainly won't be around, for the pretrib rapture will catch them out before the 6th seal where God's wrath begins. But NEW SAINTS will arrive, because MANY will turn to God after the rapture. These saints will have to face both Satan's wrath and God's wrath: NOT that God will be angry with them, but when He turns 1/3 of the fresh water to blood, then later all the fresh water to blood, it will hurt the believe and nonbeliever alike: BOTH will need water to drink. God did not SET their appointments, they set it themselves by not being ready for the rapture. 

Rapture at the 6th seal (just before) God's wrath begins in the Day of the Lord
7th seal is opened so now the BOOK is opened
First 6 trumpet judgments come, all with God's wrath
7th trumpet marks the moment the man of sin will enter the temple and commit the abomination.
Those in Judea will flee (12:6)
War in heaven, Satan is cast down, very angry
The man of sin is possessed by Satan and becomes the Beast (Rev. 13)
God sends angels to warn all the people in their own language:
...worship GOD - the God that created everything
...Babylon is fallen is fallen
...DON'T take the mark, or you will surely end up in the lake of fire
The mark is created, the image is built
The beheaded begin to show up (chapter 15)
Satan's anger hits a peak as millions are beheaded Chapter 15 into chapter 16
God pours out the first 6 vials of His wrath - to SHORTEN those days of GT.
(the days of GT then go from chapter 15 to chapter 16. This is scripture.)
Finally day 1260 from the abomination arrives and the 7th vial ends the week. 
The Old Testament saints arise: on the last day.
Jesus does NOT return at the end of the week
The marriage and supper take place in heaven
Then, and finally, Jesus returns WITH his church.

This is God's order - the very order John wrote. 

Iamlamad,

"7th trumpet marks the moment the man of sin will enter the temple and commit the abomination."

The 7th trumpet would be the last after 6 trumpets have blown. I'm sure you would agree.

1st trumpet: hail, fire and blood thrown to the earth. 1/3 of the earth was burned up, 1/3 of the trees were burned up, and ALL the green grass was burned up (vegetation)

2nd trumpet: a great mountain burning with fire thrown into the sea, 1/3 of the sea became blood, 1/3 of the sea creatures die, 1/3 of the ships destroyed

3rd trumpet: 1/3 of the rivers and springs became bitter....many died from drinking the water

4th trumpet: 1/3 of the sun, moon, and stars were darkened so that the day would not shine for 1/3 of it

5th trumpet: locusts, power given to them to torment for 5 months

6th trumpet: 4 angels released to kill 1/3 of mankind by the 200 million army......those left alive DID NOT REPENT of the works of their hands, worship of demons and idols of gold, silver , brass wood, nor of their murders and sorceries, nor of their immorality or thefts.

7th trumpet: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord.....temple in heaven is opened. (There is no moment marked when the man of sin enters the temple and commits the AofD. )

So, you are saying that after ALL THIS FURY AND WRATH OF GOD, that is when the antichrist enters the temple.....that is when the Jews flee Jerusalem....that is when the mark and image of the beast is created.......................And God warns the people!

And who will it affect? 

Those alive during the 6th trumpet mayhem  DO NOT REPENT!.............They DO NOT REPENT!

 

 

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2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

So, you are saying that after ALL THIS FURY AND WRATH OF GOD, that is when the antichrist enters the temple.....that is when the Jews flee Jerusalem....that is when the mark and image of the beast is created.......................And God warns the people!

I agree that the notion is unscriptural.

  • Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven,  and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:5-7

That passage says it all.

Edited by Last Daze
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42 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The falling away is coupled with the revealing of the Antichrist  Sorry, the "coupled" is only in a sentence -  not in reality. But IN that sentence we read that the apostasia has to come FIRST. And why is that? Paul tells us in verses 7 & 8:

7  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, 8 and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming.  HCSB

Well they are coupled together in the sentence, and you decide to rip them apart, which is not what the passage does.

As for the rest of the criticism, That is between you and @Diaste. Here is how I read this passage, Note the added Parenthesis are mine.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,(The Rapture)

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (People telling them they have missed the rapture)

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (These two things need to occur before the rapture, this is the simple reading of the passage)

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God(The Man of Sin), or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (The Man of Sin)

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (a change of direction to a previous conversation he had with them)

And now ye know what withholdeth that he (Christ Jesus) might be revealed in his time. (Yes there are 2 revealings here, there is the revealing of the man of sin, and the revealing of Christ being discussed)

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: (There are many antichrists at work even now) only {he who now} (This should only be "Now" as it is an adverb with No Gender) letteth(to restrain) {will let}, (Bracketted words are added by the translators hence the italics) until he be taken(Ginomai, means to arise or become) out of the way (Midst). (Simply Put, the meaning of this Phrase is lost in translation. It should be "ONLY NOW THE RESTRAINER ARISES OUT OF THE MIDST") 

And then shall that Wicked be revealed (As a Fraud, Refer to what I told you about the sixth seal when those who have been following the strong delusion are made aware they are following a lie), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (Who is destroyed? the Antichrist is destroyed When Jesus comes)

Even him (Notice the italics are added. eliminating them ties this to the previous statement), whose coming is after (In place and time) the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (Jesus coming comes after the working of Satan with signs and lying wonders, This is how this is read when the last statement of verse 8 is tied rightly to verse 9)

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. ( Here is the confirmation of what I wrote in verse 8)

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Simply Put, Antichrist is revealed to the saints of the church when he declares himself God, But to those who do not Love the truth he is not revealed to until the end of His time ruling, for they are clearly in the grips of believing His lie that he is the messiah, and this strong delusion is granted them. Verses 8-9 clearly place this second revealing to the masses at the end of the reign of the antichrist, and that is quickly followed by the coming of Christ Jesus That the passage is talking about. Jesus comes AFTER in place and time, the ruling of the antichrist and the false Prophet. THEREFORE, this passage is a confirmation of the fact that the Antichrist comes in the first half of the final week, and that the rapture in no way can come until after the antichrist has ruled with all lying signs and wonders. The Key to this passage is found in verses 8-9.

Satan's power is restrained to 1/4th of the earth in the days we are in, in the days in which he rules his power will extend to all the earth. This is Part of the strong delusion. God is Withholding his time to rule, until he decides the time is right... No man knoweth the day or the hour, not even the Son.... Once Satan is cast down to earth he will unleash His wrath on the earth first, and then Christ Jesus comes. If the saints and the believers are raptured out who is Satan going to unleash his wrath on? His own servants, as only the wicked remain? Do You see how nonsensical the pre-trib rapture then becomes. Jesus himself even said something about a house divided against itself cannot stand.... Is Satan going to attack His own? And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? (Matthew 12:25-26)

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1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Well they are coupled together in the sentence, and you decide to rip them apart, which is not what the passage does.

As for the rest of the criticism,

@Diaste. Here is how I read this passage, Note the added Parenthesis are mine.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,(The Rapture)

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (People telling them they have missed the rapture)

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (These two things need to occur before the rapture, this is the simple reading of the passage)

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God(The Man of Sin), or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (The Man of Sin)

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (a change of direction to a previous conversation he had with them)

And now ye know what withholdeth that he (Christ Jesus) might be revealed in his time. (Yes there are 2 revealings here, there is the revealing of the man of sin, and the revealing of Christ being discussed)

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: (There are many antichrists at work even now) only {he who now} (This should only be "Now" as it is an adverb with No Gender) letteth(to restrain) {will let}, (Bracketted words are added by the translators hence the italics) until he be taken(Ginomai, means to arise or become) out of the way (Midst). (Simply Put, the meaning of this Phrase is lost in translation. It should be "ONLY NOW THE RESTRAINER ARISES OUT OF THE MIDST") 

And then shall that Wicked be revealed (As a Fraud, Refer to what I told you about the sixth seal when those who have been following the strong delusion are made aware they are following a lie), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (Who is destroyed? the Antichrist is destroyed When Jesus comes)

Even him (Notice the italics are added. eliminating them ties this to the previous statement), whose coming is after (In place and time) the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (Jesus coming comes after the working of Satan with signs and lying wonders, This is how this is read when the last statement of verse 8 is tied rightly to verse 9)

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. ( Here is the confirmation of what I wrote in verse 8)

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Simply Put, Antichrist is revealed to the saints of the church when he declares himself God, But to those who do not Love the truth he is not revealed to until the end of His time ruling, for they are clearly in the grips of believing His lie that he is the messiah, and this strong delusion is granted them. Verses 8-9 clearly place this second revealing to the masses at the end of the reign of the antichrist, and that is quickly followed by the coming of Christ Jesus That the passage is talking about. Jesus comes AFTER in place and time, the ruling of the antichrist and the false Prophet. THEREFORE, this passage is a confirmation of the fact that the Antichrist comes in the first half of the final week, and that the rapture in no way can come until after the antichrist has ruled with all lying signs and wonders. The Key to this passage is found in verses 8-9.

Satan's power is restrained to 1/4th of the earth in the days we are in, in the days in which he rules his power will extend to all the earth. This is Part of the strong delusion. God is Withholding his time to rule, until he decides the time is right... No man knoweth the day or the hour, not even the Son.... Once Satan is cast down to earth he will unleash His wrath on the earth first, and then Christ Jesus comes. If the saints and the believers are raptured out who is Satan going to unleash his wrath on? His own servants, as only the wicked remain? Do You see how nonsensical the pre-trib rapture then becomes. Jesus himself even said something about a house divided against itself cannot stand.... Is Satan going to attack His own? And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? (Matthew 12:25-26)

Well they are coupled together in the sentence, and you decide to rip them apart, which is not what the passage does.  IN the passage, one event comes before the other so they can never be simultaneous events. The first event influences the second, because the second cannot happen without the first.  In other words, the first event CANNOT in any be be influenced by the second.  But that is what you did.

That is between you and @Diaste  You said you agreed with him.

2. The rapture:  I agree

2b:  People telling them they have missed the rapture  No, not in those words. They were told that the day of the Lord had come and they were not IN IT. We can guess they had Paul's first letter so they knew that the rapture would come before the DAY - so they may have thought they missed the rapture OR that Paul was mistaken. 

3. These two things need to occur before the rapture Wow!  Sorry, but you ad libbed the rapture. Paul only mentioned ONE THING that must be "first," not two things. And there is no mention of the rapture at all. All this verse says is that the apostasia (whatever Paul meant by that word) had to come BEFORE the man of sin could be revealed. 

However, that being said, when one understands that "the gathering" or the rapture is hidden inside "apostasia" we see that Paul's intent is that the rapture comes first, taking away  that which was restraining so that the man of sin could be revealed. 

6.  (Yes there are 2 revealings here, there is the revealing of the man of sin, and the revealing of Christ being discussed)  Sorry, but this theory breaks all the laws of pronouns so is very plainly wrong. Paul has been talking about the man of sin in these verses with Christ's coming mentioned in verse 1.  We know that Jesus Christ will be revealed to the world in Rev. 19 after the 70th week.  John is talking about the midpoint of the week here.  I have no idea how or why you would come up with this theory. 

taken(Ginomai, means to arise or become) out of the way (Midst). (Simply Put, the meaning of this Phrase is lost in translation. It should be "ONLY NOW THE RESTRAINER ARISES OUT OF THE MIDST")   It seems you are staring at an insect on a tree, and cannot see past the insect. 

New International Version
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

English Standard Version
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

Berean Literal Bible
For the mystery of lawlessness is working already; there is only the one at present restraining it, until he might be gone out of the midst.

This Berean translation seems to do a very good job here. It is very easy to understand if no preconceptions are forced upon it. Something or someone is restraining the man of sin, holding back his revealing to the world. He or it is going to continue to restrain until he is taken out of the way or gone from the midst of all the rest. Sorry, you theory is simply too wild.

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Wow! You guys have put some time into your views on this particular section of scripture.

Both can't be right and that is for sure. Imagine if one of us were present in Thessalonica when Paul discussed this with the brethren.

:-)

I have a notion that no-one has mentioned, but I need more time.

:-)

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22 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Well they are coupled together in the sentence, and you decide to rip them apart, which is not what the passage does.  IN the passage, one event comes before the other so they can never be simultaneous events. The first event influences the second, because the second cannot happen without the first.  In other words, the first event CANNOT in any be be influenced by the second.  But that is what you did.

That is you reading into the text. They are clearly coupled together, the falling away and the revealing of the man of Sin. (declaring Himself God)

I Do not know how you cannot see this. Those of us who see this revealing will not be fooled, but the majority will be that this man indeed is the messiah

28 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No, not in those words. They were told that the day of the Lord had come and they were not IN IT. We can guess they had Paul's first letter so they knew that the rapture would come before the DAY - so they may have thought they missed the rapture OR that Paul was mistaken. 

Same thing.

 

29 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Wow!  Sorry, but you ad libbed the rapture. Paul only mentioned ONE THING that must be "first," not two things. And there is no mention of the rapture at all. All this verse says is that the apostasia (whatever Paul meant by that word) had to come BEFORE the man of sin could be revealed.

No Adlibbing here, just simple reading of the text the rapture is the subject in verse 1, and the two things that must occur before the rapture are the falling away, and the revealing of the man of sin. Notice the conjunction "and" between the two things, which ties them together... you remember "conjunction, junction what's your function" from the old Sat. morning toons don't you? Let me quote that verse again so that it can sink in.  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The Two are joined together by the conjunction "and", simple 1st grade grammar. That day, referring to the day of our gathering together unto the LORD, from verse 1 the subject of the sentence

 

38 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It seems you are staring at an insect on a tree, and cannot see past the insect.

At least I see an insect when I look at the tree And the damage that insect is doing to the tree. I Noticed you did not address at all what I said about verses 8-9, which is the key to understanding the whole passage, and the key to my understanding. Why is that? Because the whole passage is summed up there, and explained logically, but because you have the "pre-trib" glasses on you cannot see this. You need to take those glasses off, before approaching this passage if you want to know the Truth, Just like I did, and I encourage others to do as well. If you approach a topic with prescription glasses on, the outcome will always lean towards those preconceptions those glasses allow you to see. 

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Just now, Alive said:

I have a notion that no-one has mentioned, but I need more time.

I Look forward to hearing it. 

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