OldCoot Posted December 30, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted December 30, 2019 8 hours ago, The Light said: Hi Old Coot, Well done. I see that you believe that the Church is removed pre trib, before the seals are opened. I also think that you believe that the seals are the tribulation period. Am I correct in this? If so what do you make of these verses? Matt 24 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Do you think this is the second coming when Christ sets up His kingdom on earth? It would seem so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted December 30, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 30, 2019 9 hours ago, OldCoot said: It would seem so. Matt 24 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Rev 6 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? It would seem that these are the same events. This is also the coming that is seen in Rev 14. Rev 14 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. The scriptures that were listed in Matt 24, Rev 6 and Rev 14 are the same events and they occur just prior to the wrath of God. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoot Posted December 30, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted December 30, 2019 20 minutes ago, The Light said: Matt 24 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Rev 6 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? It would seem that these are the same events. This is also the coming that is seen in Rev 14. Rev 14 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. The scriptures that were listed in Matt 24, Rev 6 and Rev 14 are the same events and they occur just prior to the wrath of God. Great. Now you have to support your assertion from the OT, as exampled by the Bereans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted December 30, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 30, 2019 24 minutes ago, OldCoot said: Great. Now you have to support your assertion from the OT, as exampled by the Bereans. That's not a problem whatsoever other than time. The problem is accepting what the Word says and putting things where the word says they go. Once you understand that the 70th week of Daniel does not include the wrath of God, everything lines up perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted December 30, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,625 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 30, 2019 On 12/5/2019 at 7:47 PM, iamlamad said: Many people thinks He comes AT the 6th seal. I think He comes a moment BEFORE the 6th seal. "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" The 6th seal is the sign of His coming and the terror surrounding His imminent appearance. Believers are gathered at the last trump. "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound," Jesus descends after the 6th seal events. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: " Jesus return is imminent at the 6th seal and He is revealed at the 7th trump, at which time all believers of all ages are gathered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoot Posted December 30, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted December 30, 2019 1 hour ago, The Light said: That's not a problem whatsoever other than time. The problem is accepting what the Word says and putting things where the word says they go. Once you understand that the 70th week of Daniel does not include the wrath of God, everything lines up perfectly. Except the events of the seals could not start if Yeshua doesn’t open the scroll in Revelation 6. So those events by default are under His direction. And in Revelation 5 the Elders identify themselves as the redeemed kings and priests, which is what Peter said we are. The division of priests into 24 groups was established in 1 Chronicles 24 Isaiah and Zephaniah state the redeemed are hidden from that time. Isaiah states it is at the start of the birth pains, which Jeremiah calls the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, which Yeshua refers to in Matthew 24. Isaiah also states the redeemed, both dead and living are hidden in their chambers. Zephaniah confirms the redeemed are hidden. Yeshua in John 14 says those chambers are in the Father’s house. And Enoch and Zechariah state that at His return He comes with His saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted December 30, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 30, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, OldCoot said: Quote Except the events of the seals could not start if Yeshua doesn’t open the scroll in Revelation 6. So those events by default are under His direction All events are under His direction. Quote . And in Revelation 5 the Elders identify themselves as the redeemed kings and priests, which is what Peter said we are. The division of priests into 24 groups was established in 1 Chronicles 24 We know there are more than 24 kindreds, and tongues, and people, and nations. Quote Isaiah and Zephaniah state the redeemed are hidden from that time. Isaiah states it is at the start of the birth pains, which Jeremiah calls the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, which Yeshua refers to in Matthew 24 OK. I agree. Quote . Isaiah also states the redeemed, both dead and living are hidden in their chambers. Zephaniah confirms the redeemed are hidden. Yeshua in John 14 says those chambers are in the Father’s house The Church will be in the fathers house during the tribulation. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God will turn His attention to the twelve tribes. Then the church will be gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth will be gathered from the earth to be with the Lord in the clouds. None of Gods people will experience His wrath. The great multitude will be in heaven during the wrath. The nation of Israel will go through Gods wrath in a place of protection. Mark 13 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Quote . And Enoch and Zechariah state that at His return He comes with His saints. Which of course we can see happen in Rev 19 Rev 19 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. The gathering in the clouds that we see at the end of Rev 14 is the same gathering that we see in Matt 24, which is the same event that we see at the end of Rev 6. The wrath of God begins in Matt 24, Rev 14 and Rev 6 (The wrath actually begins with the opening of the 7th seal but they see the coming of Jesus in the 6th seal and understand the day of His wrath is come.) Edited December 30, 2019 by The Light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoot Posted January 1, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) On 12/30/2019 at 1:35 PM, The Light said: We know there are more than 24 kindreds, and tongues, and people, and nations. We also know that there were more than 24 priests in ancient Israel. But still, David divided the priests into 24 divisions. So I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Edited January 1, 2020 by OldCoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted January 1, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2020 17 hours ago, OldCoot said: We also know that there were more than 24 priests in ancient Israel. But still, David divided the priests into 24 divisions. So I am not sure what point you are trying to make. The point that I am making is that the kings and priests that you see in Rev 5 that come out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation, is obviously the raptured church. Rev 1 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. The real problem for those that believe in a pretribulation rapture is to figure out what to do with the coming of Christ in the clouds in Rev 14. Rev 14 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. The vine is gathered and cast into the wrath of God in the middle of the wrath of God? How does that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoot Posted January 1, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted January 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, The Light said: The point that I am making is that the kings and priests that you see in Rev 5 that come out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation, is obviously the raptured church. I will agree with that. There are some of the newer translations of Revelation 5 that will state something like... "made THEM kings and priests" as if the Elders are singing about another group than themselves as opposed to all the early translations clear back to the Latin Vulgate that says "made US kings and priests". It is very evident that these Elders are representative of the redeemed of Messiah that has been removed prior to the scroll seals being opened. 46 minutes ago, The Light said: The real problem for those that believe in a pretribulation rapture is to figure out what to do with the coming of Christ in the clouds in Rev 14. I don't see a problem. Do you not think that there will be those who, by experiencing the disappearance of the righteous, will turn to Yeshua during that period? And Yeshua makes it very clear in Ezekiel 20, Joel 3, and Matthew 25 that all of both Israel and the Nations will be gathered and separated out. That has nothing to do with the redeemed that were removed prior to these things. There has to be some that go into the Millennial kingdom as mortals to repopulate the earth. But it is the Redeemed of the Body of Messiah that were removed prior to these things who will return with Him (Jude 1:14) and reign over the earth along with Him. Revelation 2:26-27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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