OneLight Posted October 31, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2019 35 minutes ago, Behold said: I did reply to your comments. Your last post stated basically 3 comments, and i responded. you stated that in your neck of the woods, nobody is teaching that you can lose your salvation. You mentioned that you believe in the gifts of the spirit as being active today. you stated that you follow no particular church doctrine, no particular denominational doctrine, (which is the same thing)... Then you said a few things about teachers of false doctrine. So, thats it, i got it all in.... Now lets talk more about your belief that a person's salvation can cease to exist, or as you would define it..." because they walked away and god cut them loose". Well, this is all the same box of monkeys, its just that you want to present your Legalistic "Christians can burn in hell" theology, as "god cut them loose because they walked away". So, One Light, reshuffle the deck all you like, but no slight of hand is going to keep me and anyone who reads what you are saying from understanding that you think a Christian can burn in the Lake of Fire with Christ inside them. Now, do you want to address all my comments and scriptures ive posted about this, that prove that the born again can't go to hell, or do you just want to continue to say the same thing over and over that..."a christian can walk away, and god will cut them loose". See, you post no real attempt at proving your theology, with a scripture You dont even post a bible verse, twisted out of context, One Light. You just state what you believe, and no bible verses are used. Im giving you a lot of scriptures that show you that our born again connection with Christ and God as ONE, is not a situation that can be changed. Here, let me give you another verse. Jesus speaking : "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." So, let me expound this verse.... Jesus is teaching eternal security. His defines the Born Again, as ""unto THEM" He gives them eternal life. And He is able to do this because Jesus Himself IS eternal Life. So, if we have Jesus ("Christ in you the hope of Glory"), and we are "in Christ"< then we have by Born Again SPIRITUAL UNION, the certainty of always having eternal life. = NO one, no person, no man, no human being, can remove the born again from their "in Christ" position, or as Jesus defines this, as being in "my hand"..Which of course is God's hand. Now, here is where the heretics hit a road block. They do not understand, and have not been taught, probably, that the "No Man", that there is no man who can take the born again out of Jesus's Hand, includes the born again person themselves. Understand? Jesus is teaching that no person, including the PERSON themselves, can take themselves , can SEPARATE themselves from Spiritual Union (Born again)..with Christ and God.... What im showing you One Light, and Reader, is that even the born again person themselves, is the "man" that can't separate themselves from God, Christ, and Salvation. Now let me give you more. Now think about this Reader, and you tooooo One Light. Notice this verse. "all (everyone) who calls upon the Name of the Lord, shall be SAVED". Romans 10:13. So, we should all be able to agree that this verse is talking about becoming saved, born again. We can expand it to include hearing the Gospel, being drawn by the Holy Spirit, and so forth, but, in the end, this verse dials it in. Now here is what i want you to notice. Notice the word "SAVED".... see that word? It means born again. It means Blood bought. It means REDEEMED by the blood of the Lamb. Sure, most of us here get this, got this, and are Children of God because OF It. ...But notice now the word...."SAVED".....Notices the last letter in the word is a "D". And do you know why? Because this means the word is specific to something being FINISHED and DONE. See that? SAVED SAVED SAVED... This allows for no other interpretation then.....something has been ACCOMPLISHED< FINISHED, COMPLETED..... And this is referring to Salvation. Its is indeed finished. Completed. In 2 WAYS.. 1.) , IS THAT it was finished by Jesus on the Cross, and proven by His Resurrection, and, 2.) It is completed upon us, and IN USE, when God gives us this Gift of Salvation, that is "made unto us", by God, through Faith. So, Salvation , SAVED, is a completed situation, finished by Christ, and also finished upon and in us... because God gave us what is already Finished as the "Free Gift" Of Salvation. We do not complete by our behavior, what is already finished on the Cross.....= SAVED <. Now, think about this. Regarding Christianity, Your savior, your literal savior, is whatever you believe keeps you out of Hell. Follow me? As Hell is for the unsaved, and Heaven is for the Saved. So, whatever you are believing keeps you out of Hell, is your personal Savior. So, to determine this you just find out what you believe KEEPS YOU SAVED, , as this is what you are literally trusting in to keep you out of Hell. = Your Savior. Now lets look at a certain Legalistic theology, so that we can see what this type person is trusting in, to keep themselves out of Hell, as this will define their real FAITH. Lets say this person states that God will cut them loose, their salvation is lost, if they walk away from God". So, this person is explaining that what they are actually trusting in to "Keep Him Saved"....= .is that as long as they do not walk away from God. ..... Understand? This means that this person's savior is themselves, making sure they do not walk away from God, as this is what they believe... This is what they are TRUSTING IN, to keep them SAVED, and out of Hell. So, do you see their savior? Its themselves making sure they do not walk away from God. Its this self effort that has become their Savior. Not Jesus. This person is trusting in their self effort, to KEEP HIM SAVED. Do you see that? This is not trusting in Christ, as this person thinks.....This is trusting in themselves, to keep themselves saved, by "not walking away"......so, the "not walking away", is what they are doing to keep themselves saved.. Doing this, in their mind is become their Savior. Its the person trying to save themselves, by Not doing this.....is what they are TRUSTING IN< to keep them SAVED. So, do you see their Savior? Their savior looks back at them from the mirror, everytime they look in one.. Now how about you reader? If you are to look at your own FAITH.....what are you trusting in to KEEP YOU SAVED? "Well, i trusted in the Lord to Save Me"........NO. I didnt ask you that. I asked you what you are trusting in, right now, to KEEP YOU SAVED. AND if you are like some Legalists, and say......"well as long as i dont sin willfully, as long as i dont walk away from God, as long as i keep my faith, as long as i dont DO THAT THING that i believe will cause me to be LOST"....So, Whatever that thing is, is not JESUS, it is your self effort, and so, you are trying to save yourself. And this is "fallen from Grace", which happened to you, just as soon as you became convinced that something that you can do will cause you to be lost, is now become your SAVIOR because you are now trusting that not doing that thing, is what will KEEP YOU SAVED. So, there is your Savior., and its not Jesus. Think about that. Make the correction you need to make, if you are not ONLY Trusting in Christ to Save you and KEEP YOU SAVED, as if you are not, then you are actually not trusting in Christ, at all. Ok One Light, whenever you have some verses you want to show us, that you believe proves that the New Testament said that "walking away from Christ, loses your salvation, because God will cut you loose".. So, when you can find that verse, that is LITERAL< and not some Symbolic Verse, then do post it, as im curious to see how you taught yourself this interesting ideology. And once i see it, or them, i'll get back to you. B See my last reply - let's continue in the other thread where we discuss this very same issue. That way we don't continue to hijack this thread and neither you not I have to bounce back and forth trying to determine if a current question has already been answered in another thread. 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Behold Posted October 31, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.34 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, OneLight said: It seems you refuse to see the difference between loosing your salvation and refusing to followo Jesus any longer, therefore turning your back on salvation. This is the only reason why you don't see this as a possibility. Also, you sure give a huge blanket statement about "all Pentecostal - Charismatic denominations, and the Methodists, and the Catholics and others .... teach, according to their doctrinal statement of faith, that you can lost your salvation." First, a very high percentage of blanket statements are a lie. You say "All" as if you have read every single churches doctrine in the denominations you speak against. Second, please provide the evidence that supports this accusation. I know what backsliding is, which is a common phrase that has been around longer than I have been a Christian. You will find your answer if you read Revelation 3:1-6. You tell me what is meant by someones name being blotted out, or erased from the Book of Life. How would that come about, according tho these passages. Please note that in the other thread I gave you a more descriptive answer - you can refer to that post. There were no other questions that cannot be answered by what I posted in this reply. Let's make a decision as to which thread we should continue in. This one or the one titled Dealing with your sin, as we are discussing the same issues in both. I suggest the other thread should be where we continue this discussion as this thread's focus was on Paul being the only pattern of salvation, not how we deal with sin. You asked me to prove that the Assembly's of God, Catholic, Methodist, Nazarene, and others, teach that salvation can be lost... or as you keep trying to dodge it by saying..."walk away from god and god cuts you loose"... Well thats easy, all you have to do is look at their doctrinal statements, One Light. Thats what i did. So thats why i know what im talking about.... So, if you want proof, then, i just told you. If you need to see for yourself, then instead of just talking.... go and read the doctrinal statements of the Catholic Church for example, and you'll find your proof. Its the same with all the denominations i listed. Each of them, according to their Central Doctrinal Statements, pursues the idea that Salvation can be lost/ etc.. Now, can it be that some of their leaders in isolated churches within these denominations have an autonomous approach regarding how they deal with being a part of this system? Sure. There are always people in these type denominations that actually have the revelation of the Grace of God, and understand that you can't stop being born again., but as a whole, and as a rule, these denominations believe what they teach according to the doctrinal statements, as per each. Do you want some real proof that all these Denominations have convinced their members that they can lose their salvation? Want to see it for REAL, ? Then go as an invited guest to any Assembly of God, Nazarene, Catholic, Methodist, church, and others, that are similar, especially within the Charismatic or Pentecostal groups.... and try to preach a message that says.....>"You can't lose your salvation". Try that. You wont get 10 mins into it before hell will begin to roar from the front row. Or you can come to a Christian forum like this one, as i do, and teach about the Grace of God, as being Eternal Security, and people like you, who are just like those people in all those denominations i listed, will start doing what you are doing, and JLB does, and all the rest that are the SAME TYPE who are found here, and on every Christian Forum. Is that proof for you, or are you not able to be honest about this, also, in the same way you try to hedge and dodge and deny the fact that "losing your salvation, is exactly the same idea as "god cutting you loose" no matter what variety of sin you try to supple as His reason that you believe He will do it to you...... JLB is the "willfully sinning", obsessed, as his reason, and you use the "walking away from God", as your idea of how to LOSE IT. As in both cases, using both phrases, the end result is the same, according to you and JLB. Next, .....i asked you to NOT post a symbolic verse, but rather a Literal one, if you can find one, that would agree that "god will cut you loose if you walk away"... So, you posted a deeply deeply symbolic set of verses from The Revelation. that talk about "seven spirits and seven stars". So, really? Thats your proof? Why dont you try make a real case for your ideology by twisting something that is written by Paul, that is actually given as doctrine for the Body Of Christ, and not a symbolic verse, that is talking about stars and spirits. Listen, let me show you something else..... You are a living breathing human, because you have or had a living breathing mother. She BIRTHED You. So, if you decided during her lifetime to turn your back on her and walk away, .. and you never spoke to her again, and she disowned you........ did this stop you from being born? Is she still your Mother? Can you undo your BIRTH ? Are you still here? Born? So, can you change being BORN, can you undo it, because you "walked away from your mother, and she disowned you"? Do you understand what i just said? Then realize that a SAVED person is BORN AGAIN......Its a BIRTH. And so, can you stop being BORN AGAIN, because you walked away from God who Birthed you? Listen, salvation, if a person is saved, does not necessarily mean you are now a good person, or a nice person, or a honest person......it only means you are a BORN AGAIN person. Try to understand, if you can, that you can't undo a birth, by your behavior. If you end up in heaven after you die, its not because you didnt ever walk away from God after you were saved, its only because God accepted you as His because He accepted your faith, which caused Him to give you the Righteousness of Christ. One Light, its not the good people or the bad people or the in between, who go to heaven. Its only the Redeemed. Redemption is not based on your behavior. Redemption is based on Christ's Behavior, applied to you, as if its yours. "gift of Salvation". "gift of righteousness". So, when we understand that what we believe KEEPS US SAVED, is actually what we are trusting in by FAITH, then if a person like you is trusting in staying saved by not walking away from God, then this IDEA is now your Savior, as you believe that as long as you dont do that, You are keeping yourself SAVED. Look at your wrists, One Light. Do you see any holes where the spikes held you to the Cross? Then i guess you idea of saving yourself by not walking away from God, is a FAIL. Edited October 31, 2019 by Behold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted November 1, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2019 2 hours ago, Behold said: You asked me to prove that the Assembly's of God, Catholic, Methodist, Nazarene, and others, teach that salvation can be lost... or as you keep trying to dodge it by saying..."walk away from god and god cuts you loose"... Well thats easy, all you have to do is look at their doctrinal statements, One Light. Thats what i did. So thats why i know what im talking about.... So, if you want proof, then, i just told you. If you need to see for yourself, then instead of just talking.... go and read the doctrinal statements of the Catholic Church for example, and you'll find your proof. Its the same with all the denominations i listed. Each of them, according to their Central Doctrinal Statements, pursues the idea that Salvation can be lost/ etc.. Now, can it be that some of their leaders in isolated churches within these denominations have an autonomous approach regarding how they deal with being a part of this system? Sure. There are always people in these type denominations that actually have the revelation of the Grace of God, and understand that you can't stop being born again., but as a whole, and as a rule, these denominations believe what they teach according to the doctrinal statements, as per each. Do you want some real proof that all these Denominations have convinced their members that they can lose their salvation? Want to see it for REAL, ? Then go as an invited guest to any Assembly of God, Nazarene, Catholic, Methodist, church, and others, that are similar, especially within the Charismatic or Pentecostal groups.... and try to preach a message that says.....>"You can't lose your salvation". Try that. You wont get 10 mins into it before hell will begin to roar from the front row. Or you can come to a Christian forum like this one, as i do, and teach about the Grace of God, as being Eternal Security, and people like you, who are just like those people in all those denominations i listed, will start doing what you are doing, and JLB does, and all the rest that are the SAME TYPE who are found here, and on every Christian Forum. Is that proof for you, or are you not able to be honest about this, also, in the same way you try to hedge and dodge and deny the fact that "losing your salvation, is exactly the same idea as "god cutting you loose" no matter what variety of sin you try to supple as His reason that you believe He will do it to you...... JLB is the "willfully sinning", obsessed, as his reason, and you use the "walking away from God", as your idea of how to LOSE IT. As in both cases, using both phrases, the end result is the same, according to you and JLB. Next, .....i asked you to NOT post a symbolic verse, but rather a Literal one, if you can find one, that would agree that "god will cut you loose if you walk away"... So, you posted a deeply deeply symbolic set of verses from The Revelation. that talk about "seven spirits and seven stars". So, really? Thats your proof? Why dont you try make a real case for your ideology by twisting something that is written by Paul, that is actually given as doctrine for the Body Of Christ, and not a symbolic verse, that is talking about stars and spirits. Listen, let me show you something else..... You are a living breathing human, because you have or had a living breathing mother. She BIRTHED You. So, if you decided during her lifetime to turn your back on her and walk away, .. and you never spoke to her again, and she disowned you........ did this stop you from being born? Is she still your Mother? Can you undo your BIRTH ? Are you still here? Born? So, can you change being BORN, can you undo it, because you "walked away from your mother, and she disowned you"? Do you understand what i just said? Then realize that a SAVED person is BORN AGAIN......Its a BIRTH. And so, can you stop being BORN AGAIN, because you walked away from God who Birthed you? Listen, salvation, if a person is saved, does not necessarily mean you are now a good person, or a nice person, or a honest person......it only means you are a BORN AGAIN person. Try to understand, if you can, that you can't undo a birth, by your behavior. If you end up in heaven after you die, its not because you didnt ever walk away from God after you were saved, its only because God accepted you as His because He accepted your faith, which caused Him to give you the Righteousness of Christ. One Light, its not the good people or the bad people or the in between, who go to heaven. Its only the Redeemed. Redemption is not based on your behavior. Redemption is based on Christ's Behavior, applied to you, as if its yours. "gift of Salvation". "gift of righteousness". So, when we understand that what we believe KEEPS US SAVED, is actually what we are trusting in by FAITH, then if a person like you is trusting in staying saved by not walking away from God, then this IDEA is now your Savior, as you believe that as long as you dont do that, You are keeping yourself SAVED. Look at your wrists, One Light. Do you see any holes where the spikes held you to the Cross? Then i guess you idea of saving yourself by not walking away from God, is a FAIL. Very sad response, never addressing the questions I ask nor providing the proof text for what you claim. I'm done with this topic with you. A discussion is not a one way street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behold Posted November 1, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.34 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2019 10 hours ago, OneLight said: Very sad response, never addressing the questions I ask nor providing the proof text for what you claim. I'm done with this topic with you. A discussion is not a one way street. The "proof text" is the doctrinal statements of the denominations i listed. IF you care to learn what i know, then take my word for it, or just read their statements. And believe me, a discussion with you, is less then a "one way street", its in fact a dead end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted November 2, 2019 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted November 2, 2019 16 hours ago, Behold said: The "proof text" is the doctrinal statements of the denominations i listed. IF you care to learn what i know, then take my word for it, or just read their statements. And believe me, a discussion with you, is less then a "one way street", its in fact a dead end. Please refrain from getting personal in this thread going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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