Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[ENOCH2010]

Quote

 

Where do you both get the sealed book is the Title Deed to Earth from?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I strongly disagree with this statement, as I see John as one of the two witnesses, a new testament saint. Without getting into this he clearly states this in the last verse of chapter 10, and first verses of 11, you just need to remove the chapter break in the middle of these verses. 

Again, I agree in part but for different reasons. Ask yourself, does the resurrection of the Jewish nation involve the resurrected saints of the Old testament? 

What I say is perfectly possible in the framework I use to interpret revelation. The sealed book is the deed to the Earth, and there is a specific time when the Kingdoms of this earth become the Kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)

I am surprised you cannot see this, and interact with someone who has a diverse opinion as you do by trying to look through their viewpoint. This is an essential skill of a teacher. As the Old saying goes, "before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes". 

You yourself acknowledge that the book is the deed to the Earth. (I read this in one of your older comments here when I was perusing old posts here) Well, when is that Deed handed over to Christ if not in the verse I quoted you? Perhaps you can learn something here yourself, or as I have said here before, "can the teacher be taught?" This is not about competition for me, but about my calling. why is there a delay between the sixth and seventh seal if the lamb is worthy? Because God is merciful, not willing that any should perish, and the fact that we as believers also have a role to play in this, as we are joint heirs with Christ Jesus, and we Overcome Satan by the blood of the lamb and the Word of our testimony as we face the wrath of the devil. (Rev; 12:11)

Tome, from my perspective, it all makes perfect sense and is 100% possible, and takes into consideration the character of God and our being Joint heirs with Christ. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:17)

God Bless

 

You can disagree all you want: it is your right. But stop and think: there have been in all of history, only TWO PEOPLE who never died - yet it is appointed for man once to die.  Have you ever consulted commentators here?  Many believers today imagine it will be Elijah and Moses, but Moses died. Enoch never died.  Next, this is during the 70th week of WHO? Of course Daniel and Daniel wrote that this time period was for HIS people. That would be Old Testament saints.

Ask yourself, does the resurrection of the Jewish nation involve the resurrected saints of the Old testament?  I am not sure what you are asking.  I would say the Jews will be included in the resurrection of the Old Testament saints: that is all who died in faith up to Christ's death and resurrection.  I will leave it up to God to decide the fate of the Jews who died after Christ's resurrection with strong faith in the OLD Covenant and no faith in Christ.  God looks on the heart.  What exactly do you mean by "the resurrection of the Jewish nation?" Do you have a verse in mind?

As for the last verse in chapter 10, I have not consulted commentators on that. It seems John DID "prophesy" by writing the book! 

What I say is perfectly possible in the framework I use to interpret revelation.  Perhaps your framework is the the framework the Author used.  In other words, start off wrong and everything built on the start will be wrong.

The sealed book is the deed to the Earth, and there is a specific time when the Kingdoms of this earth become the Kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ  In fact I AGREE with this! Only I would call it the "lease document."  I think Adam was given a 6000 year lease.

I am surprised you cannot see this  A moot point because in this we agree.

"can the teacher be taught?"  You will have to do a better job: I don't know what you are trying to teach here.

why is there a delay between the sixth and seventh seal if the lamb is worthy?  I personally think the delay is the 10 days of Awe - established by God in the Old Covenant. I think this because I think the rapture will come at the final trumpet at the Feast of Trumpets in some unknown year. AFter the feast of trumpets comes the 10 days of awe.  From Google I quote on the ten days of Awe:  " God is merciful and offers people a chance to sort out all the things they've done wrong. That's fortunate, as most people are likely to have quite a lot of bad deeds around. So during the 10 days between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur everyone gets a chance to repent."

Note carefully and ponder this: the "book" cannot possibly be opened until after the 7th seal is opened. And NO trumpet can be sounded until all seals are opened so that the book can be opened. It is not written explicitly, but it can be determined that the trumpets are written INSIDE the book. How then can you have any trumpet judgment without all 7 seals opened? This gets to your "framework." Does your framework acknowledge that what we read in Rev. 8:2 and onward is what is written INSIDE THE BOOK?  It seems to me that your framework has events that John write in a linear fashion mixed up - which is why I say it is impossible. You may imagine you can align the 7th seal with the 7th trumpet but IN TIME it is impossible! At the moment of the 7th seal the book is not yet opened: it may take a few seconds to get the book opened. But as soon as it is opened John then saw the 7 angels with the 7 trumpets. Keep in mind, John numbered the trumpets: the 7th trumpet cannot possibly get sounded until the first 6 are sounded.

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by saying "There are three mentions of a great earthquake in revelation, once at the sixth seal, once at the seventh trumpet, and once at the seventh plague. I Believe the first two sync..."

OR:

Rev. 18 is a different vision, which syncs with the seventh trumpet, seal and vial..."  Do you mean sync as in TIME?   If your meaning is syncing in TIME, then I must say your "framework" will never work.

the fact that we as believers also have a role to play in this  Sorry, but the church is not going to be around to have any role after the rapture - which I believe will come a moment before the 6th seal. OF COURSE we have a role up to the time of the rapture.

we Overcome Satan by the blood of the lamb and the Word of our testimony as we face the wrath of the devil.  If you wish to stay behind (get left behind) and face the wrath of the devil, that is between you and God. However, the Bride of Christ, all those who will be caught up in the rapture, are NOT going to be here during that time. This verse fits the new believers that come to God AFTER the rapture.

I look forward to your next post.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Where do you both get the sealed book is the Title Deed to Earth from?

Simple: when the book gets opened so that the trumpets can sound, at the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of the world are stripped from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. I prefer to call it the "lease document." I think Adam was given a 6000 year lease, and at the 7th trumpet the 6000 year lease runs out: expires. Finally Satan has no more legal hold to anything.

[ENOCH2010]

17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Simple: when the book gets opened so that the trumpets can sound, at the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of the world are stripped from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. I prefer to call it the "lease document." I think Adam was given a 6000 year lease, and at the 7th trumpet the 6000 year lease runs out: expires. Finally Satan has no more legal hold to anything.

In other words, you made it up, there is nothing in the Bible that says such a thing. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, ENOCH2010 said:

In other words, you made it up, there is nothing in the Bible that says such a thing. 

Not totally true. It is not said in so many words. I am guessing you have read at the 7th trumpet where the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given back to Jesus Christ, the rightful owner (since He created the planet).

I guess most readers just read over that and go on. I wanted to know WHY at this particular spot this transfer of the earthly kingdoms take place.  So I asked God. What happens at the 7th trumpet that makes this transfer of power possible HERE at the 7th trumpet? Why not when Jesus returns as in chapter 19?

I have read several places where ancient Jewish sages (perhaps way back in Moses time or before) wrote that since God created the universe in 6 days, and then rested the 7th, the intent of God was that man would rule the earth for 6000 years and then GOD would rule the earth for the 7th thousand years.  Keep in mind, this was written thousands of years before John wrote of the Millennial reign of Christ!

Most believers KNOW that somewhere in Revelation one millennium ends and another starts. I wanted to know WHERE. So I asked. The change is at the 7th trumpet. I know because He told me. I understand He did not tell you. I understand it is not written in so many words. 

Question: can you prove by scripture that the change of millenniums is NOT at the 7th trumpet?  Think about it: if you cannot prove by scripture I am mistaken, why not at least put in on the back burner so to speak and let it set there for a while?

I could ask another question: WHY NOT at the 7th trumpet? I know, many people assume the change in millenniums is when the millennial reign officially starts. I don't think so.

Therefore I certainly did not "make it up." But I will agree, it is not written out: "this is where one millennium ends and another begins."

It is not written out: "This transfer of power is because Satan's lease ran out."

Did you ever wonder WHY God has allowed almost 6000 years with Satan is the spiritual leader (God) of this world? I have - many times.

You caught me: I wrote something that I cannot prove in so many words in scripture.  I can only say "God told me."

 

[ENOCH2010]

13 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You caught me: I wrote something that I cannot prove in so many words in scripture.  I can only say "God told me."

That can be said for a lot of what you try to teach on the forum 

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You can disagree all you want: it is your right. But stop and think: there have been in all of history, only TWO PEOPLE who never died - yet it is appointed for man once to die.  Have you ever consulted commentators here?  Many believers today imagine it will be Elijah and Moses, but Moses died. Enoch never died.  Next, this is during the 70th week of WHO? Of course Daniel and Daniel wrote that this time period was for HIS people. That would be Old Testament saints.

Obviously this is not a point in your favor, as Moses who did die appeared at the mount of transfiguration along with Elijah who did not die. So to me this is a non argument against John. Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, the two witnesses in my opinion, and it is opinion will represent both old and new covenants, and how they both point to Jesus. The rule of men being appointed once to die is not a rule, as for example all those who were miraculously raised from the dead, Lazarus as an example died twice.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Ask yourself, does the resurrection of the Jewish nation involve the resurrected saints of the Old testament?  I am not sure what you are asking.  I would say the Jews will be included in the resurrection of the Old Testament saints: that is all who died in faith up to Christ's death and resurrection.  I will leave it up to God to decide the fate of the Jews who died after Christ's resurrection with strong faith in the OLD Covenant and no faith in Christ.  God looks on the heart.  What exactly do you mean by "the resurrection of the Jewish nation?" Do you have a verse in mind?

Sorry that was a typo, the question should have read does the RESTORATION of the Jewish nation involve the resurrected saints of the OT? Meaning will they help accomplish those things specified in Daniel 9:24-27 before the millennial reign of Christ?

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What I say is perfectly possible in the framework I use to interpret revelation.  Perhaps your framework is the the framework the Author used.  In other words, start off wrong and everything built on the start will be wrong.

The sealed book is the deed to the Earth, and there is a specific time when the Kingdoms of this earth become the Kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ  In fact I AGREE with this! Only I would call it the "lease document."  I think Adam was given a 6000 year lease.

I am surprised you cannot see this  A moot point because in this we agree.

 I Assume you meant to say "...is not the framework" and not "...Is the the framework". Correct? What if the framework is the part that was sealed until the end of the age and is now being revealed, but so many are set in their understanding that they cannot be taught this framework as being revealed here and now? Is there an example of this happening? Yes, at the first advent the majority did not understand that Messiah must come as the suffering servant first, so they Rejected Jesus. Was there a part of revelation that was sealed? Yes, what the seven thunders said in Rev. 10. What I am doing is syncing those seven thunders. Time will tell if I am right or wrong.

I Gave you a specific verse where that deed is handed over, which is at the seventh trumpet, You did not address this.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Note carefully and ponder this: the "book" cannot possibly be opened until after the 7th seal is opened. And NO trumpet can be sounded until all seals are opened so that the book can be opened. It is not written explicitly, but it can be determined that the trumpets are written INSIDE the book. How then can you have any trumpet judgment without all 7 seals opened? This gets to your "framework." Does your framework acknowledge that what we read in Rev. 8:2 and onward is what is written INSIDE THE BOOK?  It seems to me that your framework has events that John write in a linear fashion mixed up - which is why I say it is impossible. You may imagine you can align the 7th seal with the 7th trumpet but IN TIME it is impossible! At the moment of the 7th seal the book is not yet opened: it may take a few seconds to get the book opened. But as soon as it is opened John then saw the 7 angels with the 7 trumpets. Keep in mind, John numbered the trumpets: the 7th trumpet cannot possibly get sounded until the first 6 are sounded.

 I see the seventh seal as simultaneous with the seventh trumpet.  To me the trumpets are NOT contingent upon the seals, but marks the start of another vision. You would have to prove otherwise, which you have yet to do.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You will have to do a better job: I don't know what you are trying to teach here.

You too will have to do a better job as well, instead of just blanket statements like the following:

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If your meaning is syncing in TIME, then I must say your "framework" will never work.

Again this is a blanket statement of one opinion versus another opinion, with no facts to substantiate it. You will need to be more thorough and explain why. What I am trying to teach here is an entire new framework I explain this in the paragraph above where I corrected your grammar. I have been more than thorough in explaining this to you.

Look I agree with much of what you write, and have received it as Truth, What you wrote about the seals was profound in another post, which very few have understood. But there comes a time that what you know is insufficient, for no one man has the whole counsel of God. God designed it this way. Partly so that we could set aside our pride of knowing and come together to arrive at the truth, Part of it was because if one man were to Know they would have too much this would go to their head and they would use that knowledge for corruption. I Do not know if you understand this, but so long as you are trusting in your own knowledge and understanding the word of revelation will be met with resistance. Take the time to read the first three chapters of 1 Corinthians again, with this in mind, and how this then leads to what Paul writes about regarding the gifts of the Spirit in chapters 12-14. I Am not going to convince you, as the Holy Ghost will do that if you are receptive to His teaching. Do you understand this? Us debating this is counterproductive to arriving at the Truth. That is what I mean about this not being a competition for me.     

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Obviously this is not a point in your favor, as Moses who did die appeared at the mount of transfiguration along with Elijah who did not die. So to me this is a non argument against John. Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, the two witnesses in my opinion, and it is opinion will represent both old and new covenants, and how they both point to Jesus. The rule of men being appointed once to die is not a rule, as for example all those who were miraculously raised from the dead, Lazarus as an example died twice.

Yes, it seems God has exceptions on the dying "once," as you said,  all those who have been risen from the dead back into a flesh and blood body always seem to die again; such as Lazarus. However, there still remains only two who went to heaven without benefit of dying.  Will those two become the two witnesses and finally die physically? One day we will know.

I will agree, Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. But I think that means very little in wondering who the two witnesses will be. I can only suspect, because the bible does not tell us, that Elijah's body was changed in some way so he could survive for these thousands of years in God's presence. I further suspect that Moses was one of those who was resurrected when Jesus rose from the dead - and received his resurrection body then. Therefore we really don't know in what form these two were in when they appeared with Jesus. Without a doubt, God has the power to change a flesh and blood body into a resurrection body, so we could guess He has the power to change a resurrection body back into a flesh and blood body. Perhaps then both Enoch and Elijah got a temporary resurrection body! Or, is it possible that a resurrection body can be killed?  Perhaps they show up on earth with resurrection bodies. We just don't know. Neither do I see any link between them showing up with Jesus and then becoming the two witnesses.

Finally, it really does not matter who. They will do their job.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 10:56 PM, The Light said:

Hi again Marilyn,

I see absolutely nothing that says the 7 years starts at the Day of the Lord.

We see the coming of the Day of the Lord here.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

The seals are the 7 year tribulation period. We can see at the end of the 6th seal that the day of His wrath is come.

Hi The Light,

Rev. 6: 12 - 17 refers to the specific Day of the Lord. However the word `Day,` also means a `time period and the Day of the Lord Time Period starts when the Lord comes (as a thief) and starts the judgments upon the world as this scripture tells us.

` You yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.  

For when they are saying "Peace and Safety!" then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION comes upon them as labour pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.` (1 Thess. 5: 2 & 3)

Marilyn. 

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Sorry that was a typo, the question should have read does the RESTORATION of the Jewish nation involve the resurrected saints of the OT? Meaning will they help accomplish those things specified in Daniel 9:24-27 before the millennial reign of Christ?

 

 I Assume you meant to say "...is not the framework" and not "...Is the the framework". Correct? What if the framework is the part that was sealed until the end of the age and is now being revealed, but so many are set in their understanding that they cannot be taught this framework as being revealed here and now? Is there an example of this happening? Yes, at the first advent the majority did not understand that Messiah must come as the suffering servant first, so they Rejected Jesus. Was there a part of revelation that was sealed? Yes, what the seven thunders said in Rev. 10. What I am doing is syncing those seven thunders. Time will tell if I am right or wrong.

I Gave you a specific verse where that deed is handed over, which is at the seventh trumpet, You did not address this.

 I see the seventh seal as simultaneous with the seventh trumpet.  To me the trumpets are NOT contingent upon the seals, but marks the start of another vision. You would have to prove otherwise, which you have yet to do.

 

You too will have to do a better job as well, instead of just blanket statements like the following:

 

Again this is a blanket statement of one opinion versus another opinion, with no facts to substantiate it. You will need to be more thorough and explain why. What I am trying to teach here is an entire new framework I explain this in the paragraph above where I corrected your grammar. I have been more than thorough in explaining this to you.

Look I agree with much of what you write, and have received it as Truth, What you wrote about the seals was profound in another post, which very few have understood. But there comes a time that what you know is insufficient, for no one man has the whole counsel of God. God designed it this way. Partly so that we could set aside our pride of knowing and come together to arrive at the truth, Part of it was because if one man were to Know they would have too much this would go to their head and they would use that knowledge for corruption. I Do not know if you understand this, but so long as you are trusting in your own knowledge and understanding the word of revelation will be met with resistance. Take the time to read the first three chapters of 1 Corinthians again, with this in mind, and how this then leads to what Paul writes about regarding the gifts of the Spirit in chapters 12-14. I Am not going to convince you, as the Holy Ghost will do that if you are receptive to His teaching. Do you understand this? Us debating this is counterproductive to arriving at the Truth. That is what I mean about this not being a competition for me.     

does the RESTORATION of the Jewish nation involve the resurrected saints of the OT? I don't think so: those that are going to be a part of the "first resurrection" - the resurrection for the righteous - I think they will be resurrected wherever in the world they happen to be at that time. Many have died around the world just as many Christians have died around the world. Did I understand your question?

Right, my meaning was that perhaps your framework was NOT the Author's framework. Thanks for the correction.

What if the framework is the part that was sealed until the end of the age  Some people have said that the "book with 7 seals" is Daniel's "sealed" book. I don't think so. I don't think that is what you are saying either.  What I am doing is syncing those seven thunders. Ah! I have read after people that are SURE they know what the 7 thunders are. Sorry, but I don't take them serious. John was told to seal them up and not write them. I think then, we don't need to know.  If you have been given revelation knowledge of what those 7 thunders are, I am willing to read. By the way, it is NOT written that the 7 thunders are sealed only to the end of the age! It is only written that they were to be sealed and John was told not to write them.

I Gave you a specific verse where that deed is handed over, which is at the seventh trumpet, You did not address this.  You did mention the last verse of chapter 10 and the first verse of chapter 11.

¹¹ And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. ¹And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

I don't see a connection between these two verses: it seems a great place for a chapter division. Neither do I understand verse 11. I have only considered it to mean he was going to see more of the vision and write about it: in other words, finish his book. Do you think this verse is saying that He, John, will be one of the two witnesses?  WOW! I looked in several of the commentaries: they were of very little help.

Again I am not sure I understand your question: 'where the deed is handed over." It is most certainly at the 7th trumpet that Adam's lease ends and therefore the time Satan is cast down.

I see the seventh seal as simultaneous with the seventh trumpet.  To me the trumpets are NOT contingent upon the seals, but marks the start of another vision. You would have to prove otherwise, which you have yet to do.  Wow.  It is not written that his first vision stopped. I think the burden of another vision must fall on you to prove.

It is not written in so many words that what follows the 7th seal is what is written inside the book, but I think it is supposed to be understood. God had John write many words about this book with 7 seals. Then to just ignore the book after the seals are opened? I think not! It is to be understood that as soon as all seven seals are opened, then, finally, the BOOK is opened (or the scroll unrolled.) Again it is not written, but I suspect the entire 70th week is what is INSIDE the book: in other words, what we read from 8:2 to the end of chapter 16 is what is written inside the book.  I cannot prove that, but neither can you prove other wise. Therefore we will continue to disagree. But that is OK. 

Surely you understand the main purpose of the seals is the seal the book?  I see this book as a LEGAL document made in heaven. I believe it was an agreement between Satan (as the god of this world) and God. I suspect Satan demanded the book be sealed and demanded that only a man who could raise from the dead under his own power could ever be found worthy to open the seals. God of course wanted to send out the church with the gospel. Satan then demanded that he be allowed to stop the advance of the gospel. It was settled that he could use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts, but would be limited to only 1/4 of the earth. I see this as a strong legal document: God could not send out the church, until the first seal could be opened.

Of course none of this is written. Neither did I get this as I did the revelations that came through His spoken word to me. I am just "reading between the lines," so to speak.  OF COURSE I could be wrong.

Again this is a blanket statement of one opinion versus another opinion, with no facts to substantiate it.  When "facts" are not written, it is one opinion vs. another. If it was very important, God would have had John write it!  It is OK that we disagree. I understand you are trying to lay out a new framework. I just disagree with it. I don't think it fits.  If you desire so to change John's order of events, it is up to you to prove with scripture a REASON to rearrange. Take note that the 7th trumpet is in chapter 11 and the 7th seal back in chapter 8. All the first 6 trumpet judgments are written between. That is just the way John saw it and wrote it.

The only thing I can end with is this: when I see someone trying to align any seal with any trumpet or any vial, as if to say they happen at the same time, I am going to challenge them.  I don't think such an alignment is possible with the way John wrote the book.

Good post. I just disagree with some of it!