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Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?


iamlamad

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4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

YOu see, I have a good understanding of English, so I can look in Strong's and READ the meaning of a Greek or a Hebrew word.

 

Great, now show us where those things in Matthew 24 are found in Revelation.  I'll be waiting.

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1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

There is no doubt that Isaiah 2 is speaking about the same events.

How about comparing them to the wrath, since that is what is being spoken of?

Revelation 16:3 The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea.

4 The third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood.

Revelation 16:8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.

10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish 11 and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.

Which are called wrath, and which better reflect destruction?  And also, how do you suppose what Isaiah said in 13:9 that you posted above can be true?  If all the sinners are destroyed out of the land at the sixth seal and that is the beginning, then who is left for all that follows?

Of course, they are practically identical because they are different, gotcha ;)   I'll tell you what, why don't you show us where the events Jesus described are found in the book of Revelation then.  You don't believe He was mistaken do you?

No, you just didn't read it carefully enough, I'll make it easier this time and maybe you can catch it.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

But like I asked previously, show where this occurs in the book of Revelation.

You are not quoting from chapter 8 where you claim the book mentioned in chapter 5 is opened.  This is a deflection again from the facts.  You make a claim that the book has to be opened for the trumpets and vials, but when we read the opening of the 7th seal, there is no book found mentioned at all, why?

Where we differ here is not that complicated, you are once again penciling something into the text that is not there, to fit your theory.  Why not just believe what is written in scripture, and accept where John tells you the books are opened?

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Again, you will notice the timing of books being opened is at the end, coinciding with what is spoken at the 7th trumpet.  Once again, your argument for chronology is just a convenient way for you to move things about as you please, and condemn others for disagreeing with your chronology.  Your theory simply doesn't fit with what is written.

God bless

How about comparing them to the wrath, since that is what is being spoken of    OK, let's look at wrath:

Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev. 8:1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Now compare with Joel:

Joel 1:15  Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. 

Joel tells us when the Day of the Lord comes, it will destroy. Of course burning up a 3rd of the trees and all of the green grass is destruction - and it comes right after the start of the Day of His wrath.

As for the vials:

Rev. 15:1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev. 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

The trumpets and vials can only be compared by the amount of destruction: God has great mercy and starts with only 1/3 destruction - giving people a chance to repent. But the vials are FILLED with His wrath. In other words, as time goes on and people refuse to repent, God's wrath increases.

If all the sinners are destroyed out of the land at the sixth seal and that is the beginning, then who is left for all that follows?  Whoever said destruction (complete) has to come at once? I have never suggested that. The 6th seal is the START of the DAy of the Lord. It is a long and extended period of time, and includes the 70th week of Daniel in it. And as time moves forward, destruction gets worse and worse, until finally the entire heavens and the earth are destroyed and God creates new ones.

show us where the events Jesus described are found in the book of Revelation

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Let's look:  Notice that in verse six, "the end is not yet. In other words, Jesus is talking church age and not "end times."

7: FOR  9: Then  10: And 11: And  12: And  13: But

Do you see how Matthew tied all these verses together? In other words, right up to where Jesus menions "end" in verse 13, He was talking church age.

So He tells of WAR during the church age. CHECK! We have certainly had wars!

Rumors of wars? CHECK! Yes, we have had rumors.

Nation against Nation and Kingdom against Kingdom? CHECK! Just notice Turkey today!

Famines? It seems every few years there is a terrible famine in Africa: part of the 1/4 of the earth that God limited the devil in bringing these wars and famines.

Pestilences? The black plague hit Europe at least twice, each time killing around 1/3 of all the people. Again, Europe is in that 1/4 of the world that God set for the limits of where Satan could work to stop the advance of the gospel.

Earthquakes? Once I got onto the US earthquake web site and did a search. I was curious of these small quakes that seem to hit everywhere was a new phenomenon. I started with last year, then went every ten year down to 1948 or so. However, SO MANY in recent years I had to go year by year.

................4 to 6..1 to 6    Richter
2000 to    2010....117859..249995    
1990 to    2000....75841...164993    
1980 to    1990....52542...78582    
1970 to    1980....29330...34745    
1960 to    1970....    (few small quakes)    

1950 to 1951......119
Jul to Dec.........82
1950 Jan -Jun......25
1949 to 1950......0.0
1940 to 1950......0.0

It seems these small earthquakes started after Israel became a nation.

So where are these things in Revelation? Chapter 6:

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.  WAR

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. FAMINE

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. PESTILENCE And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Note that God LIMITED Satan in these efforts to stop the gospel to only 1/4 of the earth. These three bad guys ride together - leaving the white horse and rider to ride alone.

30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man,  As I said before, the signs at the 6th seal are the signs for the DAY, but the signs here in Matthew 24 are the signs for HIS COMING: TWO different signs, (one sign visible, the other not) at TWO different times (over 7 years apart) and for TWO different purposes: the DAY and HIS COMING.  Am I missing something?

show where this occurs in the book of Revelation.  Sorry, God did not show this to John, so John did not write it. But, if God chose to include it, it would over course be in chapter 19 just before His coming.  Joel 3 shows us this sign associated with His coming.

You are not quoting from chapter 8 where you claim the book mentioned in chapter 5 is opened.  As I said, John did not give us the words:  "Then the book was opened and I saw 7 angels..." It is not there: but my argument was, IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE! It should be understand, after so much about the book and the seals, it should be understood that after all seals are opened, then the BOOK is opened.

Why not just believe what is written in scripture, and accept where John tells you the books are opened?  Maybe this is a difference in how you study and how I study: when I have a question, I bug God about it, mediate on it, and pray in the Spirit until He answers. If you wish to assume that God spent all those words in the book with the seals, then forgot it once the seals were all opened, go ahead! It is OK. We will just have to differ. I think God made it obvious enough people could get it.

However, that is what I thought about chapters 4 & 5, that it was a vision of John's past, pointing to a time before Jesus raised from the dead, up to that time and then to His ascension back into heaven. To me it is VERY obvious now - after God took me step by step through it. I was VERY slow then to understand - but Jesus is a good teacher and I FINALLY got it.

Perhaps there is something here you have not thought about: God is all powerful! Full of Knowledge! If God chooses to reveal things NOT WRITTEN in the bible, that is HIS PRIVILEGE! He CAN and He DOES do this. He has done it with me.

Let's take about the entire 70th week "clearly marked" with 7's. I cannot prove conclusively that the start of the week is marked by the 7th seal, but can anyone else prove by scripture that it CANNOT be?

I cannot prove conclusively that in Rev. 5 - John is shown some history, that Jesus prevailed over death, was then found worthy, and they ascended, getting the book into His hands around 32 AD and began immediately opening the seals. The thing is, can anyone prove with scripture that this CANNOT be truth?

Since we are in chapter 11, I know that in verses 1 & 2, it is the man of sin arriving in Jerusalem with Gentile armies. I cannot prove it.  But can someone prove it to be impossible?  I know that the two witnesses show up (suddenly appear) just 3.5 days before the midpoint - but can anyone prove with scripture that this is impossible?

I wonder, can I get you to say that it just might be slightly possible - like a 1% chance - that the trumpets are what is written inside the book? Or can you prove by scripture that it cannot be?

Why not just believe what is written in scripture  I do believe. Can you prove by scripture that concerning what is written I am in error? For example, can you prove that verses 11:4 through 11:13 cannot possibly be written as a parenthesis? Again, can you admit there might be a 1% chance it is a parenthesis? Just imagine if Paul kept his revealed knowledge to himself: we would be missing many books in the New Testament. Neither was Paul afraid to tell what God had told Him. He told it in front of kings.

Now I can ask: God placed the 7th trumpet at the midpoint of the week. Why not just believe that instead of trying to move it?

and books were opened.   You can't be serious! These are different books! Of of them is the book of Life.  Did you skip over this part?  "  the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.These are individual books: one for each person. YOU have a book and I have a book. Believe it!

Your theory simply doesn't fit with what is written.  Correction: my theory does not fit with how YOU READ what is written. Of course I can say the same thing about your theory. You really amazed me with "the books were opened."

Edited by iamlamad
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1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

I responded to it, but it says you have not read my response.

I will do that now.

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32 minutes ago, Tampered With said:

No man knows the time but the Father. 

images (37).jpg

Exactly! But WHY? Because He has not told us exactly when.

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

How convenient for your false theory that you get to remove all the text associated with it and leave three verses to comprise the entire second woe.  Yeah, so believable.

I don't understand you here AT ALL! Let's examine the second woe:

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

So each of the last three trumpets are woes.

9:1 And the fifth angel sounded  This is woe 1

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Notice by verse 12, the first woe is now history. time has passed.

13 And the sixth angel sounded   This is woe 2 but its description continues on to verse 19. Verses 20 and 21 are discussion about people not repenting. by the last verse, verse 21, this second woe is DONE, finished.

Chapter 1o is an intermission.

Chapter 11:1-2 Gentile armies will trample the city

Verse 3: the two witnesses show up and begin testifying.  It is 3.5 days to the midpoint.

verses 4 -13 are about the two witnesses: written as a parenthesis.

Verse 14: The second woe was past by 9:21 so it is certainly past here.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded;  This then is the third woe.  It is not the trumpet sounding, it is what HAPPENS when the 7th trumpet sounds: Satan gets run out of the heavens (loses his wings) and is cast down to earth VERY angry, and John wrote, WOE to the inhabitants of the earth...

When I include a parenthesis in 11:4-13, I see PERFECT chronology. Therefore I cannot understand why you don't see this too.

Did you mean third woe?

Question: Do you see the 42 months of trampling as COMPLETED in rev. 11:3?

Do you see the 42 months of authority as COMPLETED in rev. 13:6?

Do you see the 1260 days of fleeing as COMPLETED in rev. 12:7?

Do you see the 3.5 years of protection and feeding as completed by 12:15?

I think NO ONE DOES! They see the verse of mention of each countdown as the START ONLY of a countdown.

So where does the 42 months of authority END? Did you notice John does not say?

When does the 1260 days of witnessing end? Here we can tell by some arithmetic.

-When or where does the 1260 days of fleeing end? John does not tell us.

Where does the 3.5 years of supernatural feeding end? John does not tell us.

My point here is that John does something DIFFERENT with the 1260 days of witnesses and the 42 months of authority that He does not do with the fleeing or trampling or feeding. In these two cases He uses a parenthesis to tell us MORE INFORMATION that will take place during the last half of the week.

Another question: by the end of chapter 13: is the mark being enforced? Think now before you answer! God gives the warning not to take the mark in chapter 14! That makes it imperative that part of chapter 13 is also written as a parenthesis. You see, what is inside a parenthesis has NO BEARING on chronology.

1. Days before the midpoint: the countdown for the 42 months of authority begin

2. Days before the midpoint: the countdown for the 1260 days of testifying begin.

3. the 7th trumpet (3rd woe) is sounding marking the midpoint

4. Those in Judea being their 1260 day flight - so this countdown begins.

5. Michael goes to war with Satan.

6. John sees the Beast arise and his 42 month countdown begins.  The city is still be trampled. The two witnesses are still testifying. People are still fleeing. The Beast's 42 months are clocking down.

7. John sees the 144,000 in heaven.  The city is still be trampled. The two witnesses are still testifying. People are still fleeing. They are being supernaturally fed and protected. The Beast's 42 months are clocking down.

8. God warns people not to take the mark.  The city is still be trampled. The two witnesses are still testifying. People are still fleeing. They are being supernaturally fed and protected. The Beast's 42 months are clocking down.

9. the mark is then enforced. The city is still be trampled. The two witnesses are still testifying. People are still fleeing. They are being supernaturally fed and protected. The Beast's 42 months are clocking down.

10: the beheaded begin to show up in heaven. The city is still be trampled. The two witnesses are still testifying. People are still fleeing. They are being supernaturally fed and protected. The Beast's 42 months are clocking down.

11: the days of GT that Jesus spoke of begin.  The city is still be trampled. The two witnesses are still testifying. People are still fleeing. They are being supernaturally fed and protected. The Beast's 42 months are clocking down.

12: God waits until the beast's war machine is at its peak, murdering by the millions I would guess: then pours out the vials The city is still be trampled. The two witnesses are still testifying. People are still fleeing. They are being supernaturally fed and protected.

13. The days of GT are shortened: no one can physically hunt down anyone and behead them. The city is still be trampled. The two witnesses are still testifying. People are still fleeing. They are being supernaturally fed and protected. The Beast's 42 months are clocking down.

14. The two witnesses are killed. But the city is still being trampled. The Beast's 42 months are clocking down, close to the end.

15. the 7th vial ends the week. The Gentiles that have trampled the city leave. The two witnesses are resurrected along with all the Old Testament saints. those that have fled are still being protected and fed.

16: the marriage and supper take place in heaven. the Beast countdown is still clicking.

17: Jesus returns to earth! The beast is taken. His 42 months END. All countdowns have ended.

This is John's chronology. It is impossible unless John used parentheses.  There must be a parenthesis in chapter 11 and in chapter 13.

 

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4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

How many languages are you fluent in?  Is Greek one of them?

The reason I ask is simple.  The disciples were a punch of poor, uneducated fisherman, and yet somehow they were fluent in a language that was not their native tongue, and not just able to speak it, but also to read and write it.  In case you don't know the history of the Greeks, their civilization was pretty impressive, all these writers and philosophers and such.  Pity none of them had any clue what anyone else was talking about, at least that is how you present your case.

You make something that is very simple into something difficult. What was probably difficult in ancient Greek was discovering quotes and parentheses. With no marks, how to tell?

Romans 1

 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 
in Greek:

1 παῦλος δοῦλος χριστοῦ ἰησοῦ, κλητὸς ἀπόστολος, ἀφωρισμένος εἰς εὐαγγέλιον θεοῦ,

2 ὃ προεπηγγείλατο διὰ τῶν προφητῶν αὐτοῦ ἐν γραφαῖς ἁγίαις,

3 περὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ τοῦ γενομένου ἐκ σπέρματος δαυὶδ κατὰ σάρκα,

I don't see an parenthesis marks in verse 2. It seems the translators recognized verse 2 as a parenthesis. All I can say is, the ancient Greeks could have done even better if they had invented punctuation!
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5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

And what in those passages makes you connect them together?

You also can't have it both ways and just pluck a few verses out of it to move.  The entire passage goes together, from verses 1-14 or you have the 2 witnesses here for more than 1260 days.  What you really want to do here is REMOVE verse 14 from the text because it ties these events to the 6th trumpet, which is the 2nd woe.  Let's just be honest about your entire reasoning behind your invisible parentheses theory.

 

This makes absolutely no sense at all.  Look, verses 1-3  cover the measuring of the temple, the trampling of the city by the gentiles, and the introduction to the 2 witnesses and their 1260 day visit.  That places them just before the midpoint, then John precedes to tell you the highlights of their ministry for that time period culminating in their death and resurrection.  Then he tells you at the conclusion that the 2nd woe (6th trumpet) is done and the 3rd woe (7th trumpet) comes quickly.   This is your problem and what you continue not to address, you have already attached the 6th trumpet to the 7th vial!

 

You're doing it though, that's exactly what you have presented.  The difference is, you want to eliminate a verse and pretend it doesn't exist so you can say that you are not, and it doesn't fly.

God bless

what in those passages makes you connect them together? (the 7th trumpet and the fleeing.)  I know they go together by OTHER scriptures: Jesus said those in Judea would flee the instant they saw the abomination. I assume those in 12:6 did exactly what Jesus said they would do.

The entire passage goes together, from verses 1-14 or you have the 2 witnesses here for more than 1260 days. This is error even though I have explained it over and over.  Verses 1 and 2 are about the city being trampled. Verses 3 through 13 are about the two witnesses.  Do you understand that their 1260 days takes TIME to fulfill?  NO ONE can squeeze 1260 days into 3.5 days, but that seems to be what you are asking me to do. They BEGIN their testimony just days before the midpoint. Therefore MOST of their testimony must be in the SECOND HALF of the week. After all, the 42 months of trampling is in the second half (except for a few days in the first half). The 1260 days of fleeing in for the second half. The 3.5 years of protection and feeding is in the second half. The 42 months of authority is in the second half. WHY THEN do you find it so strange that the 5th one should also be in the second half? Especially when Jesus told me personally that ALL of them are for the second half: to start and the midpoint and go to the end of the week. This would INCLUDE the two witnesses.

You do understand, God introduced them to john in chapter 11 - right at the end of the first half. He did NOT introduce them in chapter 8 at the START of the first half. Just saying....

Let me say this one more time. I hope this time you get it: 3 1/2 days of their testimony are in the FIRST HALF. 1256  1/2 days of their testimony are in the last half of the week.  Add those two numbers together and you get 1260. 

Therefore, you need more study on this portion of scripture. If you insist there is no parenthesis, the THE WEEK IS OVER in verse 11:14. Everything from that point on in Revelation is then past the end of the 70th week. 

Why would John write of the 42 months (SECOND HALF) of the week, then in the very next verse give us 1260 days of the FIRST HALF of the week? Answer, HE WOULD NOT!  The beginning of the trampling comes first, and THEN the 1260 days of testifying. There may be only minutes between the start of these two countdowns.

What you really want to do here is REMOVE verse 14 from the text because it ties these events to the 6th trumpet, which is the 2nd woe.  No, I disagree. At verse 14 (just read it again) the 6th trumpet/2nd woe event is OVER WITH: FINISHED. It was finished by the end of chapter 9. Verse 14 is just confirming that the 2nd woe is over.  It is time here for the 3rd woe.   (You really need to rethink this.)

This makes absolutely no sense at all.  Look, verses 1-3  cover the measuring of the temple, the trampling of the city by the gentiles, and the introduction to the 2 witnesses and their 1260 day visit.  That places them just before the midpoint,  EXACTLY! Are you catching on? But let me assist here: this places their ARRIVAL and BEGINNING of their testimony just before the midpoint.  They have 1260 days to go. If they START just before the midpoint, then their FINISH must be 1260 days LATER. That takes them to just before the end of the week. (note: all five of these countdowns to the end will end near the end of the week.) Verses 4 through 13 is about the REST OF the week, the REST of their 1260 days: or could we say their 1256.5 days remaining? 

That is going to take them to just 3.5 days BEFORE THE END OF THE WEEK - because thy STARTED 3.5 days before the midpoint!

then John precedes to tell you the highlights of their ministry for that time period culminating in their death and resurrection.  Agreed: but the "highlights" of their ministry is going to be in the SECOND HALF of the week, not in the 3.5 days just before the midpoint.  Let's try this again: if they START 3 days before the MIDPOINT, then they must end 3 days before the END.

Then he tells you at the conclusion that the 2nd woe (6th trumpet) is done  Trust me in this: the two witnesses have NOTHING to do with the 2nd woe. It was finished by the end of chapter 9. All John tells us here is that it is finished. Thanks John, but we already knew that. (John said the same thing just before the second woe.)

 This is your problem   No, sorry but it is yours because you have not understood the text. I think you are getting close!

you have already attached the 6th trumpet to the 7th vial!  No, you are imaging that. John tells us the 6th trumpet is FINISHED. We can tell that it was finished by the end of chapter 9, when it tells us that the people did not repent.

Remember, START something that lasts half the week 3 days before the midpoint, and it  forces the end of that something 3 days before the week ends.  So in reality JOHN attached the two witnesses to the 7th vial.

I have confidence, if we keep going over this and over this, you are going to get it!

Maybe this will help: the two witnesses show up and BEGIN on day 1256.5 of the FIRST HALF of the week. There fore most of their testimony will be in the SECOND HALF of the week.

There is something funny here - to me at least: you remind me of ME when God was trying to teach me chapters 4 & 5! 

Edited by iamlamad
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On 10/24/2019 at 6:43 PM, iamlamad said:

1 Thes. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

5:1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Notice here that Paul wrote of the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after his famous rapture verse. Why would Paul do that. Further, he said that "the Day" would come "as a thief." Yet, there is another scripture that Christ comes "as a thief."  Why would Paul write that? 

The answer is very simple, the rapture will be the TRIGGER for the DAy of the Lord. The moment after the rapture, it is be DAY OF THE LORD. The DAY will come as a thief because HE will come as a thief for the rapture - which will take very little time, and the Day will come - SUDDENLY  - and with no warning.  Paul goes on:

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Now we have more information: the rapture / Day of the Lord, will come at a time people are saying "peace and safety." ... perhaps a day just like today.  But the DAY will start with "sudden destruction."

What is Paul's "sudden Destruction" that comes a moment after the rapture and starts the Day of the Lord? Paul goes on:

 

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Here Paul is giving us a paradigm: a comparison of two things brought right up in front of us so we can easily see it: Paul tells us those living "In Christ" will get "salvation" or be caught up. But at the same moment in time, those left behind will be "sudden destruction.

 

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (so shall we ever be with the Lord.)

Notice, those who are living "in Christ" are NOT appointed to wrath, but this coin has a flip side: those NOT living "in Christ" ARE appointed to wrath - that is the sudden destruction. 

What then IS this "sudden destruction."  Notice, when God raises the dead, there seems to be a  corresponding earthquake. In Matthew 27 he wrote, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." There will be an earthquake when God raises the two witnesses. I am convinced, when God raises the dead in Christ, it is going to cause a great earthquake, but since the dead in Christ are the world around, it is going to be the first worldwide earthquake. And, it will be Paul's Sudden destruction. Several people who have had dreams/visions of the rapture tell that the ground began to shake just as they were caught up. 

If we look in Revelation, where do we find the first big earthquake? That would be at the 6th seal and at the start of the Day of the Lord. Wow! That is just what Paul wrote!

If we back up to the 5th seal, for the martyrs of the church age, they are told they must wait a long time, unto all those who will be killed as they were - as church age martyrs - so until the final number is complete. THEN judgment will come. 

What does John write next? Of course the 6th seal when the judgment does begin! Therefore, according to Paul and John, the rapture MUST come between the 5th and 6th seals. And the great earthquake of the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising - and it will be Paul's "sudden destruction."

Paul DOES give us the timing of the rapture: it will come a moment before the Day of the Lord begins.

The rapture happens in the Day of Atonement, for that is when the great shofar is blown, hence "and you Israel, will be gathered one by one, on that day the great shofar will be blown".

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4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The trumpets and vials can only be compared by the amount of destruction

 

I suggest you read it again, what you should notice is that the trumpets are called judgements, the vials are called wrath.  There is a difference, and it is clear.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chapter 11:1-2 Gentile armies will trample the city

Verse 3: the two witnesses show up and begin testifying.  It is 3.5 days to the midpoint.

verses 4 -13 are about the two witnesses: written as a parenthesis.

Verse 14: The second woe was past by 9:21 so it is certainly past here.

 

There is no parentheses, the entirety of verses 1-14 go together and connects the timing of the two witnesses death and resurrection with the completion of the 2nd woe, 6th trumpet.  No matter how many times you say otherwise, this is the truth of the matter.  The 6th trumpet happens at the end of the week, not the beginning, because Revelation is not chronological, regardless of what you think.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Question: Do you see the 42 months of trampling as COMPLETED in rev. 11:3?

 

No, it begins just before the midway point.  I have been telling you this for years now.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Do you see the 42 months of authority as COMPLETED in rev. 13:6?

 

No, the 42 months is complete at the end of the week.  It runs at the same time as the 2 witnesses are here, maybe a few days difference, maybe not.  I have been telling you this for years now as well.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Do you see the 1260 days of fleeing as COMPLETED in rev. 12:7?

 

No, this ends at His coming, which I have also been telling you for years now.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Do you see the 3.5 years of protection and feeding as completed by 12:15?

 

No, this ends at His coming, which I have also been telling you for years now.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In these two cases He uses a parenthesis to tell us MORE INFORMATION that will take place during the last half of the week.

 

No John does not, the parentheses is your invention and imagination regarding something that I have been telling you for years without any parentheses necessary.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Another question: by the end of chapter 13: is the mark being enforced? 

 

The mark will be enforced as soon as the image is ready, we are given no time in regards to the mark itself. 

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

That makes it imperative that part of chapter 13 is also written as a parenthesis. You see, what is inside a parenthesis has NO BEARING on chronology.

 

There are no parentheses, the book is not chronological.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is John's chronology. It is impossible unless John used parentheses.  There must be a parenthesis in chapter 11 and in chapter 13.

 

There are no parentheses, nor is this attributable to John, this is your imagination and invention because you refuse to accept the truth.  Chapter 11 verses 1-14 remain intact, covering their entire 3.5 year period on earth, and placing the 2nd woe, 6th trumpet at the end of the week.  Exactly what I have been telling you for years now.

 

The chronology you lay out also does not align with scripture, I will show you a few blatant errors.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

11: the days of GT that Jesus spoke of begin.  The city is still be trampled. The two witnesses are still testifying. People are still fleeing. They are being supernaturally fed and protected. The Beast's 42 months are clocking down.

 

Matthew 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

 

Jesus says the great tribulation begins right after the AoD, and in my opinion will correlate with the exact timing of the war on the saints.  That is your midpoint marker, the abomination of desolation.  That is when the great tribulation begins, and whoever is going to flee will do so immediately, as you can see they are told not to even go back for their cloaks.  You want to stretch this out it seems, but I disagree based on the urgency of the instructions.

Daniel tells you the same thing, the abomination of desolation is the middle of the week.  All of the 3.5 year markers must begin or have already begun with this action.  The 42 month war on the saints, the 1260 days of protection and nourishment of the woman begin at this moment.

 

God bless

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4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

These are individual books: one for each person. YOU have a book and I have a book. Believe it!

 

I imagine we find this in scripture along with your lease agreement right?

As I have stated in regards to your mishandling of scripture in regards to chapter 11 I will repeat myself here.  Rather than accept where John tells you the books are opened you choose to invent things that are not scripture so you can cling to your false chronology belief.  It doesn't hold water, sorry.

 

God bless

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