Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[gaviria.christian]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but you are associating the "first" resurrection with a time. God has never set a specific "time" for it. It is for all the righteous at all times: Jesus was the first to partake in that chief or most honorable of resurrections. The Gentile church will be the next "wave." Then the 144,000. Then finally the Old Testament saints - on the last day of their age. It is not first in TIME - it is first in honor.

When Jesus' resurrection was called the "first"fruits, that tells us that later there will be "second"fruits and 3rd and so on. But NOT ALL AT THE SAME TIME: Jesus' resurrection came way before the second - which is still future. Therefore I disagree with you.

The first resurrection happens at the second coming of the Messiah, hence "and the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead will be raised first". There are only two resurrections, the resurrection at his second coming, and the last resurrection after his 1,000 year rulership. This is not difficult to understand.

[iamlamad]

We have drifted off from the original topic: Did Paul give us any hints as to the timing of the rapture?  I think he did. 

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but you are associating the "first" resurrection with a time. God has never set a specific "time" for it. It is for all the righteous at all times: Jesus was the first to partake in that chief or most honorable of resurrections. The Gentile church will be the next "wave." Then the 144,000. Then finally the Old Testament saints - on the last day of their age. It is not first in TIME - it is first in honor.

When Jesus' resurrection was called the "first"fruits, that tells us that later there will be "second"fruits and 3rd and so on. But NOT ALL AT THE SAME TIME: Jesus' resurrection came way before the second - which is still future. Therefore I disagree with you.

Hi iamlamad,

There seems to be some confusion on your timeline of Resurrections and Scriptures timeline of Resurrections.

The Resurrection is based on the Hebrew harvest (Jesus made this reference many times), and the Hebrew harvest had 3 divisions: a first fruits harvest, the primary harvest, and a final gleanings harvest.

Raising the dead is temporary.....Resurrection is permanent.

 

Because the Hebrew harvest was divided into 3 parts, the Resurrection will be divided into exactly 3 parts as well. Here is a brief explanation of the 3 Part Harvest:

• a first fruits harvest: a limited, preliminary harvest which was presented to YHWH as an offering
• the primary harvest: the harvest when the majority of the grain was reaped
• a gleanings harvest: a final sweep through the fields to reap any remaining grain

In Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming (the primary harvest)” (1 Cor. 15: 22-23 NASB )

 

This verse accounts for the first two harvests.

The gleanings harvest (and the primary harvest) are found in this verse:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.(primary harvest) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first (Gk: PROTOS, meaning first or primary) resurrection. (Gleanings harvest) (Rev. 20: 5-6)

Here we see two resurrections being referred to. The primary one includes those who did not take the Mark of the Beast, did not worship the Beast, and those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and the Word of God. This resurrection includes only the righteous.  A secondary resurrection is mentioned as well.  This one will include all the rest of the dead (righteous and unrighteous) and will happen after the Millennium.

 

Since the primary harvest is the “primary” (Gk: PROTOS) one, it must include the most saints.  Revelation pictures this harvest in vivid agricultural terms:

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped. (Rev. 14:13-16)

 

We already know from Rev. 20:4-6 that this harvest includes all the martyrs of the 70th Week of Daniel. We also know from 1 Cor. 15:23 that all those who are “Christ’s at his coming” are in this harvest as well. This includes all the dead in Christ throughout the Church age.  What about Old Testament saints like Daniel and Abraham who were buried away from Jerusalem?

If we examine Dan. 12, we will find the answer.

But at that time (after the Great Tribulation) your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. (Dan. 12: 1b-3 NIV,

After the Great Tribulation, all of Daniel’s people whose names are written in the Book of Life will be delivered (resurrected.) This is abundantly clear evidence that Old Testament saints are resurrected in the primary harvest.

We know from 1 Thess. 4: 17 that during the first resurrection, the dead in Christ rise first, and then the saints who are alive are caught up together with them in the air; the Rapture immediately follows the Resurrection. If the Primary Harvest Resurrection includes saints who by faith do not take the Mark of the Beast, the Resurrection (and thus the Rapture) must occur after the Mark of the Beast is institutionalized! This cannot happen prior to the 70th Week of Daniel as a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. It must occur during the 70th Week (at the end of the Sixth Year of the 70th Week.) The saints will toil for six years of “tribulation” and rest in Heaven during the seventh year of the “week,” much as the Sabbath provides rest in a calendar week.

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

41 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad,

There seems to be some confusion on your timeline of Resurrections and Scriptures timeline of Resurrections.

The Resurrection is based on the Hebrew harvest (Jesus made this reference many times), and the Hebrew harvest had 3 divisions: a first fruits harvest, the primary harvest, and a final gleanings harvest.

Raising the dead is temporary.....Resurrection is permanent.

 

Because the Hebrew harvest was divided into 3 parts, the Resurrection will be divided into exactly 3 parts as well. Here is a brief explanation of the 3 Part Harvest:

• a first fruits harvest: a limited, preliminary harvest which was presented to YHWH as an offering
• the primary harvest: the harvest when the majority of the grain was reaped
• a gleanings harvest: a final sweep through the fields to reap any remaining grain

In Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming (the primary harvest)” (1 Cor. 15: 22-23 NASB )

 

This verse accounts for the first two harvests.

The gleanings harvest (and the primary harvest) are found in this verse:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.(primary harvest) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first (Gk: PROTOS, meaning first or primary) resurrection. (Gleanings harvest) (Rev. 20: 5-6)

Here we see two resurrections being referred to. The primary one includes those who did not take the Mark of the Beast, did not worship the Beast, and those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and the Word of God. This resurrection includes only the righteous.  A secondary resurrection is mentioned as well.  This one will include all the rest of the dead (righteous and unrighteous) and will happen after the Millennium.

 

Since the primary harvest is the “primary” (Gk: PROTOS) one, it must include the most saints.  Revelation pictures this harvest in vivid agricultural terms:

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped. (Rev. 14:13-16)

 

We already know from Rev. 20:4-6 that this harvest includes all the martyrs of the 70th Week of Daniel. We also know from 1 Cor. 15:23 that all those who are “Christ’s at his coming” are in this harvest as well. This includes all the dead in Christ throughout the Church age.  What about Old Testament saints like Daniel and Abraham who were buried away from Jerusalem?

If we examine Dan. 12, we will find the answer.

But at that time (after the Great Tribulation) your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. (Dan. 12: 1b-3 NIV,

After the Great Tribulation, all of Daniel’s people whose names are written in the Book of Life will be delivered (resurrected.) This is abundantly clear evidence that Old Testament saints are resurrected in the primary harvest.

We know from 1 Thess. 4: 17 that during the first resurrection, the dead in Christ rise first, and then the saints who are alive are caught up together with them in the air; the Rapture immediately follows the Resurrection. If the Primary Harvest Resurrection includes saints who by faith do not take the Mark of the Beast, the Resurrection (and thus the Rapture) must occur after the Mark of the Beast is institutionalized! This cannot happen prior to the 70th Week of Daniel as a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. It must occur during the 70th Week (at the end of the Sixth Year of the 70th Week.) The saints will toil for six years of “tribulation” and rest in Heaven during the seventh year of the “week,” much as the Sabbath provides rest in a calendar week.

It is OK to use Old Testament verses for end times doctrine IF there are no New Testament verses telling us specific knowledge, such as resurrections.

Just from common sense, we know the dead in Christ will be  resurrected, and the Old Testament saints will be resurrected.  Another group will be those who died during the 70th week as saints. 

Can we find in the New Testament if any of these three groups could be resurrected with another, or if one group could NOT be resurrect with another group?  Yes, we can find this information out also. in 1 thes. we know only those IN CHRIST are resurrected at that time, so that leaves out the Old Testament saints. We can also find out in 1 Thes. That this resurrection will happen JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord and the start of God's wrath. And that too we can pinpoint as at the 6th seal. That seal begins the DAy of the Lord and His wrath. According to Paul then, the rapture must come one moment before the 6th seal.  How interesting then, John SAW the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter. 

There is another proof here: it seems when there is a resurrection, that event will cause an earthquake. (Matthew 27: "...the earth did quake...and the graves were opened...") For the dead in Christ, who have died around the world, we should expect a great, worldwide earthquake - just like we read about at the 6th seal! So Paul's "Sudden Destruction" is the 6th seal earthquake. Those living "in Christ" get raptured and get to "Live together with Him," (So shall we ever be with the Lord) while those living in darkness get sudden destruction - AT THE SAME MOMENT IN TIME!

Now we have the resurrection of the church covered: a crowd TOO LARGE to number. It will include perhaps 50 generations of believers.

How about the Old Testament saints? When and where (in Revelation) will they be resurrected? Can we tell? I think we can. Several times Jesus said He would resurrect "On the last day." In other words, on the very last day of their age - or the final 24 hours of the 70th week of Daniel. The 7th vial ends the week, so the 7th vial would certainly be "on the last day." We see there the world's worst earthquake! Consider, this will include all the righteous from before the flood! The flood could scatter the particles that once make up a human body over hundreds or thousands of miles - but God will bring them all together to form that human body in an instant. This event - the resurrection of the Old Testament saints - is going to cause the world's worse ever quake - exact what we read about at the 7th vial. So we have two witnesses that the Old Testament saints will rise at the 7th bowl or vial. 

What about those who die during the 70th week? They will be raised with the Old Testament saints - at the same time - including the two witnesses.

Therefore we have three different groups of resurrections, but happening at two different times. 

Then there is the "second death" resurrection: the resurrection for the damned: it will be a thousand years later.

 a first fruits harvest, the primary harvest, and a final gleanings harvest.

Jesus was the "firstfruits" or the first man to receive a resurrection body.

The Dead in Christ will be the second group: too large to number.

The Old Testament saints plus those who get beheaded will make up the third group: that is, if we insist there must be three. I really don't know that human harvests must match plant harvests.

The gleanings harvest (and the primary harvest) are found in this verse:  You did not quote the entire passage:

John wrote that he saw thrones and people sat on them:

This would be BOTH the rapture of the church saints and the Old Testament saints.

Then the second group were the beheaded 

The resurrection of the damned then would make a third group. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by iamlamad

[JoeCanada]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is OK to use Old Testament verses for end times doctrine IF there are no New Testament verses telling us specific knowledge, such as resurrections.

Just from common sense, we know the dead in Christ will be  resurrected, and the Old Testament saints will be resurrected.  Another group will be those who died during the 70th week as saints. 

Can we find in the New Testament if any of these three groups could be resurrected with another, or if one group could NOT be resurrect with another group?  Yes, we can find this information out also. in 1 thes. we know only those IN CHRIST are resurrected at that time, so that leaves out the Old Testament saints. We can also find out in 1 Thes. That this resurrection will happen JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord and the start of God's wrath. And that too we can pinpoint as at the 6th seal. That seal begins the DAy of the Lord and His wrath. According to Paul then, the rapture must come one moment before the 6th seal.  How interesting then, John SAW the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter. 

There is another proof here: it seems when there is a resurrection, that event will cause an earthquake. (Matthew 27: "...the earth did quake...and the graves were opened...") For the dead in Christ, who have died around the world, we should expect a great, worldwide earthquake - just like we read about at the 6th seal! So Paul's "Sudden Destruction" is the 6th seal earthquake. Those living "in Christ" get raptured and get to "Live together with Him," (So shall we ever be with the Lord) while those living in darkness get sudden destruction - AT THE SAME MOMENT IN TIME!

Now we have the resurrection of the church covered: a crowd TOO LARGE to number. It will include perhaps 50 generations of believers.

How about the Old Testament saints? When and where (in Revelation) will they be resurrected? Can we tell? I think we can. Several times Jesus said He would resurrect "On the last day." In other words, on the very last day of their age - or the final 24 hours of the 70th week of Daniel. The 7th vial ends the week, so the 7th vial would certainly be "on the last day." We see there the world's worst earthquake! Consider, this will include all the righteous from before the flood! The flood could scatter the particles that once make up a human body over hundreds or thousands of miles - but God will bring them all together to form that human body in an instant. This event - the resurrection of the Old Testament saints - is going to cause the world's worse ever quake - exact what we read about at the 7th vial. So we have two witnesses that the Old Testament saints will rise at the 7th bowl or vial. 

What about those who die during the 70th week? They will be raised with the Old Testament saints - at the same time - including the two witnesses.

Therefore we have three different groups of resurrections, but happening at two different times. 

Then there is the "second death" resurrection: the resurrection for the damned: it will be a thousand years later.

 a first fruits harvest, the primary harvest, and a final gleanings harvest.

Jesus was the "firstfruits" or the first man to receive a resurrection body.

The Dead in Christ will be the second group: too large to number.

The Old Testament saints plus those who get beheaded will make up the third group: that is, if we insist there must be three. I really don't know that human harvests must match plant harvests.

The gleanings harvest (and the primary harvest) are found in this verse:  You did not quote the entire passage:

John wrote that he saw thrones and people sat on them:

This would be BOTH the rapture of the church saints and the Old Testament saints.

Then the second group were the beheaded 

The resurrection of the damned then would make a third group. 

Hi iamlamad,

The Old Testament saints plus those who get beheaded will make up the third group:

The resurrection of the damned then would make a third group. 

in 1 thes. we know only those IN CHRIST are resurrected at that time,................Those living "in Christ" get raptured

The Dead in Christ will be the second group: too large to number.................Now we have the resurrection of the church covered: a crowd TOO LARGE to number......................Then the second group were the beheaded 

Um.... ya. 

Can't make sense of all this mumbo-jumbo. Looks like maybe confusion.

Maybe some re-thinking is in order.

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

4 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad,

The Old Testament saints plus those who get beheaded will make up the third group:

The resurrection of the damned then would make a third group. 

in 1 thes. we know only those IN CHRIST are resurrected at that time,................Those living "in Christ" get raptured

The Dead in Christ will be the second group: too large to number.................Now we have the resurrection of the church covered: a crowd TOO LARGE to number......................Then the second group were the beheaded 

Um.... ya. 

Can't make sense of all this mumbo-jumbo. Looks like maybe confusion.

Maybe some re-thinking is in order.

Yes, I agree: go right ahead.

Why is "in Christ" "mumbo-jumbo?   This phrase is used 78 times in the New Testament.

Paul wrote, "  the dead in Christ shall rise first..."  This rules out any Old Testament saints for this resurrection: it is limited to ONLY those "in Christ. This is SCRIPTURE, not numbo-jumbo. You probably should rethink this.

Did you not understand that John's group, too large to number, was the CHURCH, just raptured a moment before the 6th seal - and seen by John in the vision shortly after the 6th seal?  Think about it: perhaps 50 generations of believers all resurrected at one time: it is going to be  HUGE group of people - indeed, too large to number - just as John said. It would take almost 32 years just to count to ONE billion.

This group is FAR FAR larger that those that will be beheaded during the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of.

It is very difficult to guess how big the resurrected Old Testament group will be: perhaps close to the same. But John did not see their resurrection so we have no comment about it. One thing we can know for sure: they are not resurrected with the New Testament church.  Jesus said several times that He would raise them up "on the last day." I take this to mean the last 24 hour day of the 70th week.

Perhaps you need to re-read my previous post.

[wingnut-]

On 11/4/2019 at 11:15 PM, iamlamad said:

One thing I am sure you will find is that Revelation is very much chronological - as much as possible when there are 5 things going on at one time. 

 

It is hard to believe you can say that when you are trying to rearrange parts yourself, but what you do recognize is that there are multiple things going on at the same time.  Now you just have to reconcile what John wrote to what events are going on simultaneously, but that statement in itself shows recognition that it is not chronological.

 

On 11/4/2019 at 11:15 PM, iamlamad said:

Just curious: when you think the 2nd woe ends - the 200 million army of horsemen that kill 1/3 of the people - when does that woe end?

 

It ends right where John tells us it ends, following the death of the 2 witnesses at the end of the week.  But let's take a look at that event, just from the trumpet viewpoint and see what information is found there.

 

Revelation 9:13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number. 17 And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions' heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound.

 

Ok, so we start off with 4 angels, who have been bound, and need to be released for this specific task.  They are bound at the Euphrates River, which is to the northeast of Jerusalem.  The river itself was the actual border of the Assyrian empire in their day.  Now these angels were released to kill a third of mankind, but suddenly in verse 16 we see this 200 million army of horses, and the passage goes on to tell us that they do the actual killing, not the 4 angels.  So what did these 4 angels do?  And where do you think this 200 million army is?

 

 

 

[wingnut-]

On 11/4/2019 at 11:17 PM, iamlamad said:

Anyone that imagines the books opened at the great, white throne judgment is the same book with 7 seals is too far off in left field to even consider answering.

 

Totally illogical, of course.  So let's examine your suggestion, that this book that required 7 seals to be opened contains the trumpets and vials?  What exactly is in this book according to you?

First off, ask yourself why something that already appears in every copy of scripture is sealed in heaven?  We have the trumpet and vial information in our hands, and in my bible they each require 1 page.  So what you have here, is a 2 page book?  And this information that is available on earth to anyone with a bible is sealed in heaven for what reason exactly?

Ok, so here is a question that I really need to know your answer to, and I'll give you mine.  What do you think the purpose of this entire thing is, meaning the entire creation up to the end?  What is God's purpose in all of this?

My answer is, God wanted to call out a holy people to inhabit His creation.  It started that way, then man messed it up with the influence of satan, and now it requires restoration to get back to the original design.

Hence my belief, that you find so far out in left field.  In order to restore things back to the original design, God has to get rid of every hint of sin and wickedness.  Ultimately this culminates in the punishment of satan and the fallen angels, and the separating of the sheep and the goats.  The righteous from the wicked.  God provided a way for all to become righteous, in Christ, and He is the only way for any of us to become holy and enter this promised land.  For all those born again prior to the rapture, this has already been achieved, but for everyone else they must stand and be judged.

When this occurs, there are books opened, and one of those books just happens to be called, the Lamb's book of life.  Not anyone's book, but the Lamb's book.  Why?   Maybe because He was the only worthy of it?  Maybe because He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by Him?  What book could be more important than this book?

 

God bless

 

[wingnut-]

On 11/4/2019 at 11:23 PM, iamlamad said:

Do you think the water in a river that turns to blood is going to care if it was a judgment or wrath that did it?

 

The difference is significant, the second trumpet turns 1/3 of the sea to blood, and kills 1/3 of the sea life.  The second bowl turns it all to blood and kills all sea life.  The third trumpet turns the freshwater supply bitter, all the rivers and springs become bitter, and some people die because of it.  The third bowl turns all the freshwater supply into blood, and how long can people survive without water?

 

 

On 11/4/2019 at 11:23 PM, iamlamad said:

The difference for some is that the trumpets are 1/3 destruction, but the vials and plagues are total descruction: or did you miss that difference?

 

No, I didn't miss the difference, that's the whole point, there is a distinction between the two.  The difference is clear when you keep in mind what Jesus said to us, "as in the days of Noah".  All of the trumpet judgements will be seen as natural disasters, or the result of human action.  When the time for wrath comes, as shown at the 6th seal, there is no longer any doubt as to what is happening and why.  And speaking of destruction, what did Paul call it, SUDDEN destruction.

 

I Thessalonians 5  Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

 

Not drawn out over 7 years time, sudden destruction.  "Peace and security" according to Paul, "as in the days of Noah" according to Jesus, then sudden destruction.  All of the final events will take place quickly, right on top of each other and simultaneously in most instances.  This is exactly why you see the events at the 7th vial connected to the 2 witnesses, which is connected to the 6th trumpet.

 

On 11/4/2019 at 11:23 PM, iamlamad said:

Oh, and you missed it yet again, BOTH come with His wrath, but the vials are filled with His wrath. 

 

No, you imagined something again.  Please prove me wrong, post one scripture from the trumpets with the word wrath in it.

 

On 11/4/2019 at 11:28 PM, iamlamad said:

Why then have you been disagreeing so hard?

 

My objection has been and remains with your attempt to separate the 2nd woe, 6th trumpet from the 2 witnesses where John puts it.

 

God bless

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The difference is significant, the second trumpet turns 1/3 of the sea to blood, and kills 1/3 of the sea life.  The second bowl turns it all to blood and kills all sea life.  The third trumpet turns the freshwater supply bitter, all the rivers and springs become bitter, and some people die because of it.  The third bowl turns all the freshwater supply into blood, and how long can people survive without water?

No, I didn't miss the difference, that's the whole point, there is a distinction between the two.  The difference is clear when you keep in mind what Jesus said to us, "as in the days of Noah".  All of the trumpet judgements will be seen as natural disasters, or the result of human action.  When the time for wrath comes, as shown at the 6th seal, there is no longer any doubt as to what is happening and why.  And speaking of destruction, what did Paul call it, SUDDEN destruction.

I Thessalonians 5  Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Not drawn out over 7 years time, sudden destruction.  "Peace and security" according to Paul, "as in the days of Noah" according to Jesus, then sudden destruction.  All of the final events will take place quickly, right on top of each other and simultaneously in most instances.  This is exactly why you see the events at the 7th vial connected to the 2 witnesses, which is connected to the 6th trumpet.

No, you imagined something again.  Please prove me wrong, post one scripture from the trumpets with the word wrath in it.

My objection has been and remains with your attempt to separate the 2nd woe, 6th trumpet from the 2 witnesses where John puts it.

God bless

Water and blood: we are in agreement. People will have to BUY water - meaning, they will have to take the mark to get water: so GREAT PRESSURE ensues.

All of the trumpet judgements will be seen as natural disasters, or the result of human action.  When the time for wrath comes, as shown at the 6th seal   This confirms my theory that some people writing about Revelation ignore "time" completely.  The truth? Every trumpet judgment comes WITH HIS WRATH.

SUDDEN destruction.  Agreed: SUDDEN....Paul tells us a SUDDENLY is coming - when people are saying "peace and safety." SUDDENLY the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves - with no warning at all.

Then, a moment later, two different groups of people get two different results or outcomes: those living IN CHRIST get raptured, so escape the "sudden destruction." But those living in darkness get "left behind" so they cannot escape the "sudden destruction" which will be the worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising.  So a MOMENT after the rapture event, TIME will change from "church age" to "Day of the Lord." We could say, the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY.

"as in the days of Noah"  Jesus purpose in mentioning the days of Noah was in the SUDDENNESS of their destruction. We might agree here.

This is exactly why you see the events at the 7th vial connected to the 2 witnesses, which is connected to the 6th trumpet.  You are imagining connections that are simply not implied by the text.  The two witnesses will testify in the LAST half of the week. The only connection with the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint is that they SHOW UP and begin their testimony 3.5 days before the 7th trumpet, testify right through the 7th trumpet (it does not take long to sound a trumpet), then testify to almost the end of the week.  The only connection they have to the 6th trumpet is that they show up AFTER the events of the 6th trumpet are finished. 

post one scripture from the trumpets with the word wrath in it.  No one should need such proof: anyone that understands John's TIME and TIMING knows that everything following the 6th seal comes with His wrath.  Do you really imagine that God would kill 1/3 of earth's population "just because," and it NOT be in wrath?  I could say, "post one scripture with "trinity" in it. We know it is not necessary in believing God is three in one.

My objection has been and remains with your attempt to separate the 2nd woe, 6th trumpet from the 2 witnesses where John puts it.  It has been my opinion that there is no connection - or only a very slight one, with the Two Witness and the 6th trumpet. It seems some people just don't understand when woe's end. It only took ONE ANGEL one night to kill many thousands of people. The truth here is that the 6th seal has ENDED and the 200 million army gone by the end of chapter 9.  If You asked me to guess, they probably take only one night and are gone the next day. It is ONLY a guess. John does not tell us.

Let's talk about time: or timing: WHY did John place the two witness where he did?  If they testify in the second half, why not in chapter 12 - which is AFTER the midpoint?  I guess it is a moot point with you for my guess is, you have no midpoint. Well, the REASON is simple: John was VERY chronological in His narrative, and right there, right in verse 11:3 is where they SHOW UP suddenly. Verse 1-2 is where the man of sin SHOWS UP in JERUSALEM - so the two witnesses are sent then because he showed up then.  So John put them exactly in the right place. 

Most people imagine they are killed before the 7th trumpet, but if so, they only testified for 3 a 1/2 days!  Why? In spite of what many think or imagine, the 7th trumpet marks the exact MIDPOINT of the week. It cannot be moved.

Therefore, you and I will continue to disagree.  You might think about my axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

The reason is very simple: God caused John to write with EXTREME precision concerning TIME. It is as chronological as possible. However, unless one discovers where John used parentheses, his chronology is more difficult to follow.

Edited November 7, 2019 by iamlamad