Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[iamlamad]

32 minutes ago, Sister said:

Hi iamlamad

Something to consider....

 

There are only 3 woes.  Three of the worst horrible last plagues.  One angel for each woe.  So three of the last angels. These woes are not hurting the earth, but men now.  After this there are no more woes and no more plagues.  It's finished.

 Revelation 8:13   And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

 

The locusts like spirits is the FIRST WOE - which is the 5th angel with the trumpet.  That woe lasts 5 months.

Revelation 9:11   And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Revelation 9:12   One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

What comes next after the 5th angel with the trumpet? ....

the 6th angel with the trumpet of course!

Now the SECOND WOE is finished after the two witnesses are killed (Rev 11:14).

So the second woe MUST BE during the days the 6th angel with the trumpet- the next angel. This plague is that great war with man against man, kingdom against kingdom.

 

 Revelation 11:14   The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

 

The third woe is the war against the Lamb.  It will not end good for them.  This is the last woe.  The worst.  No more woes after this.  It is done.

 

This should also prove that the trumpets and vials are the same angels, and same plagues happening at the same time because those woes are a big clue that it's not another 7 angels coming on to the scene, but the same ones only with more detail given.

 

The two witness "die" during the days of the 6th angel, not come on to the scene.  Their testimony is finished.  They are here during the days of the FP - 3 1/2 years.... with just one month short.  They will be like a Moses and Aaron who sent the plagues onto Egypt.

After this there are no more woes and no more plagues.  It's finished.  Sister, can we PLEASE follow the text instead of someone's theory?

The trumpets are written in chapters 8 & 9. They come in the first half of the week. The bowls and associated plagues come in the second half of the week. Some of the trumpets are 1/3 judgment, while in the bowls it is total judgment. The bowls will come many months after the trumpets.

Now the SECOND WOE is finished after the two witnesses are killed (Rev 11:14)  This is true, but it is also true that the second woe was finished way back in the last two verses of chapter 9. People miss this fact.  In chapter 11, John just emphasizes this. 

So the second woe MUST BE during the days the 6th angel   Yes, OF COURSE the 6th trumpet is the 2nd woe. That is stated in 8:13.  But this judgment is finished by the end of chapter 9.

This plague is that great war with man against man, kingdom against kingdom.  I think this plague is a 200 million angel army that kills 1/3 of earth's population.

The third woe is the war against the Lamb.  It will not end good for them.  This is the last woe.  The worst.  No more woes after this.  It is done.  Myth. The trumpets are finished, but the bowls and plagues in chapter 16 are still to come, some unknown time after the trumpets are finished. The real woe of the 7th trumpet is that this trumpet gets Satan kicked down from his heavenly throne to the earth, and he is VERY ANGRY, as John wrote, "WOE" to those on earth. The final woe then is Satan against all who love God, Jew and Gentile alike.

This should also prove that the trumpets and vials are the same angels, and same plagues happening at the same time  This is myth and ignores certain facts: 1/3 cannot be compared with total. And there is TIME PASSING as each chapter of Revelation comes to pass. There is TIME between the 7th angel and the first bowl. They are not the same.

The two witness "die" during the days of the 6th angel, not come on to the scene.  To make a statement like this, then you must believe that their testimony started back at the 7th seal that begins the 70th week, but for some reason God chose not to show them to John until the end of their ministry. I don't buy that theory.  Another way  someone could see it your way is if they totally ignored any kind of order or chronology to John's book, and felt free to move things around to fit some theory. I don't buy that idea either.

I think the best way to see this is that God showed John the two witnesses the moment they suddenly appeared on earth, which will be just a few days before the midpoint of the week.  Then God took John on a SIDE journey down the last half of the week AS A PARENTHESIS. In other words, verses 4 through 13 are not in John's chronology. It may LOOK like they are killed just before the 7th trumpet, but in fact they are killed just before the 7th vial that ends the week.

OF COURSE DH and others deny any kind of parenthesis. They may prefer them testifying for most of their 1260 days unknown to John - and God showed them to John just before they were to die. I don't buy that theory.  It is not consistent with everything else in the book.

I will say this, Jesus spoke to me about this and these are His words: "Every time I mentioned an event that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint."

I find His words very consistent with the written scriptures.  This means EVERY mention of the 3 1/2 years is an event that will start at or near the midpoint and go to the end - including the 1260 days of the Two Witnesses.   Therefore I disagree with you.

[Sister]

iamlamad

I only gave you facts.  Anyone can check them.

I want to stick with this for now.

Seven angels only, with the 7 last plagues.

The last plagues are given to mankind until Christ's enemies are all put under his feet.

The WOES are the WORST of the PLAGUES.

There are three woes.

Revelation 8:13   And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Four angels have come and gone,...now the three last ones are coming with the WOES. 

The first WOE starts at the 5th angel with the TRUMPET.

The second woe is during the next angel, the 6th angel with the TRUMPET.  That war by the way doesn't say who they are in Rev 9, but "reveals" who starts this war in Rev 16;

 Revelation 16:12   And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

The "kings of the east" are rising up against the FP's kingdom.  They are the Mede's.  In today's terms they are Islam with all their different groups combined for the one purpose, and that is to kill.  God has sent them to destroy all the strong holds of Babylon.  He uses this cruel group to do the evil because they got the heart for it and trained to show no mercy.   So although there are 4 spirits in the bottomless pit, as mentioned in Rev 9, they are only let out to cause this stir amongst the two kingdoms, and this is how that war starts.  It's the same war, only Rev 16 gives more DETAIL of who starts it.

This is how the bible works.  It's not a normal book with all the events happening in their chapter order.  This is God's book and it's different.  It's clue upon clue, a little here and a little there.  Seek and ye shall find.  Put the jigsaw pieces together brother.

And what I explained can be backed up in the prophesies from the Old Testament if you want proof about that war when the Mede's rise up.?

So it's not all these evil spirits being let out to kill and torment us, but only 4 spirits who are skilled in war tactics mustering man to destroy each other.

The two witnesses die somewhere during the days of that 6th angel. 

That war starting with the kings of the East, is cut short, or else no flesh will survive.  At the appearing of Christ, that war suddenly turns into a war against the Lamb.  All of them standing as one now.  This is how the 2nd woe quickly turns into the 3rd woe, because they only have enough time to gather in Megiddo, and bring their armies down to face the Lamb.  All of this happens at the 6th trumpet and 6th vial -the same time, and Rev 16 "reveals" who starts it.

But please, you have to understand that the three woes are the three last plagues.  The worst of all of them.  And the worst woe is the coming.  This proves that the trumpets and the vials are the same.  Because the first woe comes with the 5th trumpet.  The 7th trumpet is the last trump.  If you cannot see it now it's ok, give it time to sink in. 

 

 

 

[OneLight]

On 11/5/2019 at 10:53 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Yes,  you are right. What you prophesied is true and it is linked with Daniel 12:v.1-3, the Trumpet sounds by/through Michael.   You said: "1 Thessalonians 4:1`5-16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 is at the last trumpet" correctly and is linked with the archangel Michael.   

Daniel 12:1-3 does speak of Michael, but never mentions Michael blowing any trumpet.  Let's be careful not to add to scripture as that is where divisions begin.

“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.  Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.  Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.  But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

[iamlamad]

On 11/5/2019 at 9:48 AM, gaviria.christian said:

The first resurrection happens at the second coming of the Messiah, hence "and the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead will be raised first". There are only two resurrections, the resurrection at his second coming, and the last resurrection after his 1,000 year rulership. This is not difficult to understand.

You are setting a time: there is no "time" for this resurrection is for ALL the righteous - including Jesus own resurrection. He was the very first to receive a resurrection body - but that was around 32 AD. How then can you say it is at His second coming? 

The truth then, there will be different times people are resurrected at this first or primary or chief, or most honorable (all fit the Greek word KJV translated as "first") 

Jesus around 32 AD

The church sometime very soon in our future

The 144,000 around the midpoint of the week.

The Old Testament saints - including the two witnesses and those beheaded at the END of the week.

Now, how can anyone imagine all these happen at ONE TIME? The truth is, they don't.

[gaviria.christian]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

You are setting a time: there is no "time" for this resurrection is for ALL the righteous - including Jesus own resurrection. He was the very first to receive a resurrection body - but that was around 32 AD. How then can you say it is at His second coming? 

The truth then, there will be different times people are resurrected at this first or primary or chief, or most honorable (all fit the Greek word KJV translated as "first") 

Jesus around 32 AD

The church sometime very soon in our future

The 144,000 around the midpoint of the week.

The Old Testament saints - including the two witnesses and those beheaded at the END of the week.

Now, how can anyone imagine all these happen at ONE TIME? The truth is, they don't.

Because the scriptures themselves declare it, "the Lord will descend from heaven and those in the Messiah will rise first". The "Lord will descend from heaven" IS the second coming. There is no other point in time where the Messiah himself will descend unto the earth from heaven except at his second coming. You are not understanding the words spoken by the apostle. The second coming is the time of the first resurrection, which is those who believed in Yeshuah, which will be a mixture of Jew and Gentiles who were grafted in, from under the old covenant of Moses and under the new covenant of Yeshuah, and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and those under the covenant of Abraham, and that is why only 144,000 are sealed among the sons of Israel, to inherit the kingdom of the Messiah on this earth. Then 1,000 years later, is the final resurrection, of everyone else, from Adam and until the last man that died during the 1,000 year rulership of the Messiah. Whoever does not have their name written in the book of life then will be thrown into the lake of lava.

[Revelation Man]

On 10/24/2019 at 8:46 PM, OneLight said:

I'm not sold on that either as nobody knows when the 7th trumpet of judgment will be blown.

The Two-witnesses die 75 days before the Second Coming and lay in the streets for 3.5 days, then the 7th Trump is sounded. 

The Rapture however is not a Trumpet Judgment, its just Jesus ending the Harvest by calling the Church on as Rev. 4:1 says,. 

[Revelation Man]

On 11/13/2019 at 10:36 AM, Da Puppers said:

This is a prime example of why you abhor DHC's triangulation methodology.   You are relying on your internal comprehension and/ or understanding of Revelation only and ignore the dual witness of Matthew and Mark that says that the great tribulation comes as a result of the AoD and that the stars fall from heaven (the 6th seal) takes place after THAT TRIBULATION. 

Verse list:    
Mat 24:15 KJV    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:21 KJV    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:29 KJV    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Immediately after the troubles of those days begin, the troubles/Gods Wrath lasts 3.5 years. The Woman is being protected by God for 1260 days. So after all these things EXPECT Jesus to return, he does so with the Bride however and Armageddon is the Marriage Feast. 

The Sun gets worse and worse, the Trumpets Darken the Sun by 1/3 and the Vials give us total darkness it seems. So the Seals are not the only Darkness that are delivered as Judgment onto mankind. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Revelation Man

[OneLight]

15 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The Rapture however is not a Trumpet Judgment, its just Jesus ending the Harvest by calling the Church on as Rev. 4:1 says,. 

Nope, as we read in Revelation 4:1

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”

Notice John says "like the sound of a trumpet speaking to me". meaning how brass the voice sounded.

The best anyone can do is come up with their own interpretations of what they believe scripture is saying, which is why I don't like to get into these discussions, and have not returned for some time.  All it is is interpretations, not complete truth.

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Matthew 24:15-29 is all tied together. Read. Jesus ties them together.

Shalom, dhchristian.

Nope. Still not there. The "abomination of desolation" is mentioned, but NOT "the rule of the Antichrist." And, just to nip the next statement in the bud, Daniel 9:24-27 doesn't talk about the "Antichrist" nor does Daniel 11. Daniel 11 is talking about Antiochus IV "Epiphanes." HE was the one who set up the "abomination" in Daniel 11, setting up a statue of Zeus in the Temple and sacrificing a pig on the Altar!

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good, we agree then on that. This is what the preterists believe, and what I am sharing is a refutation of their strongest argument in favor of this notion. by triangulating the Great tribulation with Rev. 7:14, I am squarely placing the Great tribulation in the final week for Israel, and making it impossible to have occurred in the church age. 

There you go again with a "final week!" The seventieth Seven of Daniel 9:27 is NOT the "tribulation," "great" or otherwise! The seventieth Seven was SPLIT IN TWO by the Messiah by making the house of the Jews of Jerusalem "DESOLATE" in Matthew 23:38 and fulfilling Daniel 9:27 in part. Now, they are the two halves of Yeshua`s Advents. When He came the first time - His First Advent, He was the Lamb of God sacrificed for all mankind; when He comes the second time - His Second Advent, He will be the Lion of the Tribe of Yhudah coming to reign on the throne of His father (ancestor) King David. The Seven Years are NOT "The Great Tribulation"; rather, they are like three-and-a-half-year BOOKENDS to the 2000-year Great Tribulation.

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Again read the entire passage, Matthew 24:15-29. Jesus himself says in verse 14 that and then shall the end come. And the very next thing he says to mark the beginning of the end is When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This is simple Logic, and text reading here.

While it is "simple," it's not very logical. The problem is that you aren't giving enough attention to the PRONOUNS of Matthew 24, Mark 13, or Luke 21. See, Yeshua`s discourse on the Mount of Olives was of a saw-tooth method: He would start a segment by talking directly to His disciples sitting there on the Mount before Him. Then, as He looked forward into the future, the pronouns changed as He went farther and farther into the future. Then, He'd abruptly return to the present, talking directly to His disciples about THEIR near future before He'd drift off into the distant future again. The SIGNAL is the usage of the Greek pronouns...

"humeis" (2nd person, plural, nominative subject, "ye"), 
"humoon" (2nd person, plural, genitive or ablative, where the "oo" represents an omega, "of you" or "from you,"),
"humin" (2nd person, plural, locative, instrumental or dative, "in you," "at you"; "with you," "by you"; "to you," or "for you"), and
"humas" (2nd person, plural, accusative object, "you"), and ...
the Greek verbs that end in "-te" or "-the" (the 2nd-person, plural ending in which the "t" is a tau or the "th" is a theta, and the "e" is an epsilon).

When you see these words in the Greek New Testament, Yeshua` was talking DIRECTLY to His disciples about His TWELVE DISCIPLES' future. When the pronouns change, He is talking indirectly about the distant future of all.

This is true not only for Matthew's account of this incident, but also Mark's account and Luke's account, as well! In fact, since all three witnessed the same event, it's best to HARMONIZE the three accounts in the Greek FIRST, and THEN translate the results into English, paying attention to the pronouns! No other way gives one the necessary details to understand truly to what and when Yeshua` is referring.

Look carefully at the Greek of Matthew 24:9-29; Mark 13:10-27; and Luke 21:10-28.

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This is confirmed by 2 thess. 2, where the man of sin is revealed when he declares himself God in the holy Place "FIRST". 

As a Bit of an aside here, the Post modern mindset is so prevalent amongst the prophecy community, that simple linguistic vernacular no longer is accepted, and simple logic is not seen as proof of Truth. I Am actually shocked people cannot see this here. 

Actually, I am HIGHLY motivated to look for logic and proper, simple linguistic vernacular, particularly in the original languages.

[OneLight]

10 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Oh no, I am not adding nothing to Scripture, actually what divides is the interpretation of Scripture by the letter and not by the Spirit. You know that the Word is God and God is Spirit, the true interpretation comes from the Spirit, not of the letter.
   
That said, I would like to made clear I did not interpret Daniel 12:v.1-3 by the letters, but by the Spirit what is more important. By the letters the people or the readers do not know from what or from whom Scriptures are talking about.  

The Scriptures you have quoted show some works of Michael but he will make much more, He Judges and makes War; he will rescue them which are found written in the book of the Lord, but how? By a trumpet, by a powerful message, evidently, so powerful that there will be resurrection of the dead, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And the environment in the earth will be of great distress such as never occurred since there was nation until THIS time, this is already running because this millennium belongs no more to the men, but to the LORD exclusively.

We see also Michael sounds the trumpet now in the beginning of the first century of the seventh and last millennium, the millennium of Christ, or seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, for this millennium belongs to the LORD exclusively, no more to the men. And the trumpet of  Michael sounds in accord the prophecy as is written in 1 Thes. 4:v.16: "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel - Michael -, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.  Its it.

Rev. 2:v. 17 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the Churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna...

His words are true - as written.  Anyone can claim it meant this or that spiritually, which is where we get the false teachers and false prophets from, starting with the Gnostic teachers of the early church.  Michael did not blow a trumpet in the verses of Daniel 12:1-3 as you claim.  The Holy Spirit does not go against scripture, so I am not sure what spirit you claim to be learning from?