Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Actually, I am HIGHLY motivated to look for logic and proper, simple linguistic vernacular, particularly in the original languages.

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. (Mat. 11:25)

As I read your comment, the above verse popped into my head. Do You really think Jesus is that complicated? Do You really think His Words are so complicated that we have to know the Nuances of the Greek language to comprehend what is said? If You take the time to read my Post, (which I am not done with yet) you will see a simplicity there that can be explained to the most novice of Bible students. About the Only complicated thing is the tool being used to come up with the chronology which is triangulation, and to most with a High school diploma you can explain this in about a half a page or so.

The Fact is, Jesus Spoke of an abomination which is yet to come. It did not come in 70AD because John does mention it in Revelation, and it is the  wrath of Satan.... His short while to do as he wills. The structure I pose is very simple, but counter intuitive to the intelligentsia. It is first and foremost based on common sense a Simple literary reading of the text. Although Revelation is written in a more complicated literary style when it comes to chronology, it is no different than say a Hollywood movie centered on an event similar to a Robert Altman film, where multiple stories are told all coming together at a certain event, for example like an airplane crash. Each story shows the story of a different victim in those movies, so they may jump back to the Pilot fighting in a war over "Macho Grande", and how this affects his love life, and then the story  jumps back and shows a family on the plane getting ready in the morning.... You catch my drift.... It is all just a simple story, no need for convoluted literary translations of words and Doctorate level Greek studies.

A Lot of what you are doing is nothing more than complicating the simple, and is a tactic as old as the church with Gnostics and the Greek Philosophers. But if you remember what Paul said about the wisdom of the wise in 1 cor. 1:19 then you will then begin to see that perhaps the approach you are taking is the wrong one to understanding Prophecy. For me Personally, I Have seen people use their extensive knowledge of Greek to corrupt the simplicity of the Gospel over and the resulting errors we are still dealing with in the church today. Lutheranism, Calvinism, are non-heretical errors, but errors nonetheless, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the SDA teachings of Ellen White are heretical. Jonathon Taze Russel particularly used his knowledge of the Greek to twist scripture to say exactly the opposite of what common sense dictated by using the wrong article in John 1:1,and I could list hundred of these sorts of examples. Unfortunately they are getting worse in this day of the WWW and common folk having access to translation software, and you are seeing knowledge increasing, But they are never arriving at the Truth.

I Am not saying theology is bad, or learning the nuances of the Greek language is bad, or that the access to these translation tools are bad for common people to have, but they can be used for ill gotten gain and or to lead into error. But when it comes to understanding prophecy simplicity is the way to go. Simply reading the Word of God as written, And the Spirit of Truth teaching you as you go. This is all you need. This is all I have chosen to use. Apart from Strong's concordance as a dictionary, this is pretty much all I have done to get where I am at, And you know what, how He has shown me the events are unfolding makes perfect sense. Take the time to read the following article on the strengths and dangers of Systematic theology, and you will better understand what I am getting at. Jesus did not use the brightest mind to propogate the truth, but the simple, and sometimes we lose sight of that fact. Even Paul who was well educated counted this as nothing compared to the Gospel, and called preaching the Gospel foolishness. It is from this rejection that he came up with his approach of Pauline Ignorance, similar to Socratic Ignorance which is what I am doing myself, trying to follow in his footsteps.

God Bless. 

  

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, OneLight said:

Nope, as we read in Revelation 4:1

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”

Notice John says "like the sound of a trumpet speaking to me". meaning how brass the voice sounded.

The best anyone can do is come up with their own interpretations of what they believe scripture is saying, which is why I don't like to get into these discussions, and have not returned for some time.  All it is is interpretations, not complete truth.

Which means the Rapture and the Second Coming are TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS, you just made my point brother. Revelation 4:1 is the Rapture and Revelation 16:19 along with Rev. 11 {7th Trumpet being blown} Rev. 14:18-20 {the Wine-press of God's Wrath} and Rev. ch. 19 are all the Second Coming, they are the exact same event. But Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture. 

The Lord can show anyone who ASKS for discernment. 

[OneLight]

17 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Which means the Rapture and the Second Coming are TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS, you just made my point brother. Revelation 4:1 is the Rapture and Revelation 16:19 along with Rev. 11 {7th Trumpet being blown} Rev. 14:18-20 {the Wine-press of God's Wrath} and Rev. ch. 19 are all the Second Coming, they are the exact same event. But Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture. 

The Lord can show anyone who ASKS for discernment. 

Not sure what point you were making then.  The rapture will be at the last trumpet as found in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - there is no trumpet blown in Revelation 4:1 as you claim.  "Come up here" was a command given to John so he could continue in the vision(s) God was giving him to write down.

[iamlamad]

On 11/13/2019 at 10:44 AM, gaviria.christian said:

Because the scriptures themselves declare it, "the Lord will descend from heaven and those in the Messiah will rise first". The "Lord will descend from heaven" IS the second coming. There is no other point in time where the Messiah himself will descend unto the earth from heaven except at his second coming. You are not understanding the words spoken by the apostle. The second coming is the time of the first resurrection, which is those who believed in Yeshuah, which will be a mixture of Jew and Gentiles who were grafted in, from under the old covenant of Moses and under the new covenant of Yeshuah, and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and those under the covenant of Abraham, and that is why only 144,000 are sealed among the sons of Israel, to inherit the kingdom of the Messiah on this earth. Then 1,000 years later, is the final resurrection, of everyone else, from Adam and until the last man that died during the 1,000 year rulership of the Messiah. Whoever does not have their name written in the book of life then will be thrown into the lake of lava.

Agreed that the scriptures talk of the resurrection of the dead in Christ. But WHEN? We must look at what Paul wrote. Agreed also that it will be His SECOND coming, for He came once already. We all can count. But again, WHEN. We must believe Paul: he tells us that the moment after the dead in Christ rise, those left behind get the "sudden destruction" of the start of the Day of the Lord. In other words, the rapture is going to be the trigger for the DAY - and we know the DAY begins at the 6th seal, LONG before Christ comes as seen in Rev. 19: in fact, over 7 years before. We must follow the scriptures, not the reasonings of men.

After the dead in Christ rise, and those who are alive are caught up, then the 70th week will begin. But just before the week begins, the 144,000 are sealed for their protection. So the first half of the week passes, then the 144,000 are next seen in heaven. So THEY were caught up, but probably like those alive and in Christ, they will be CHANGED, not resurrected from the dead. Then at the END of the week, on the last day of the week, the Old Testament saints rise. The resurrection at the end of the 1000 years is the "second death" resurrection, for the damned. 

Keep in mind, the 144,000 are only the FIRSTFRUITS of the Jews and Hebrews; those that flee will make it out alive, and many in Jerusalem will escape.

 

[iamlamad]

16 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Not sure what point you were making then.  The rapture will be at the last trumpet as found in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - there is no trumpet blown in Revelation 4:1 as you claim.  "Come up here" was a command given to John so he could continue in the vision(s) God was giving him to write down.

Good point! Keep RM honest with the scriptures! Rev. 4:1 is JOHN caught up, around 95 AD! Certainly not the rapture. That theory is myth. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 I think that there is a lot of confusion over the following three phrases: 

1. Great tribulation as mentioned in the O.D.

2. Time of Jacobs trouble

3. Day of the Lord. 

And this Is the point that i made about lamad,  that the "tribulation of those days" that  is said to be "such as never was", is called the great tribulation AND it precedes the opening of the 6th seal when the stars fall from heaven. 

Mat 24:29 KJV Immediately after the TRIBULATION of THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 We both know/ believe this to be when satan is cast out of heaven. 

But the time of Jacobs trouble does not come UNTIL the time that Michael stands up (against Satan) :

Dan 12:1 KJV And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The great tribulation is a series (of mostly unspecified) events.   But the time of Jacobs trouble is almost exclusively directed at the people of God, namely Israel.   It is also said to be a time like no other: 

Jer 30:7 KJV Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

But the same thing it's said of the DOTL:   
Joe 2:1-2 KJV    Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the DAY  OF THE LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

This is what is said of the 7th trumpet: 

   
Rev 11:17-18 KJV    Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD GOD  ALMIGHTY, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and THY  WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

But this is not to be confused with the wrath of the LAMB: 

Verse list:    
Rev 6:16-17 KJV    And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH OF THE LAMB: For the great day of HIS WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?

With the 7th trumpet comes the wrath of almighty God.   But the wrath of the lamb comes at the 6th seal. 

  
Psa 110:1-6 KJV    A Psalm of David. The LORD [GOD]  said unto my Lord [JESUS] , Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD (GOD Almighty) shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. The LORD [GOD] hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord [JESUS] at thy right hand SHALL STRIKE THROUGH KINGS 

in the day of HIS WRATH. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Rev 6:15-17 KJV    And the KINGS OF THE EARTH,

and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the LAMB: For the great day of HIS WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 7th trumpet is when the DAY OF THE WRATH OF GOD ALMIGHTY comes.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

the "tribulation of those days" that  is said to be "such as never was", is called the great tribulation AND it precedes the opening of the 6th seal when the stars fall from heaven.   Of course this is myth because it is not from scripture, nor can it be proven, when John shows the days of GT much later in the week. The beheaded from those days of GT only begin showing up in heaven in chapter 15. It is very difficult to teach up some doctrine that doesn't fit what is written. Now, if you can prove this line upon line by scripture not pulled out of context and rightly understood, I will certainly change my mind. 

Mat 24:29 KJV Immediately after the TRIBULATION of THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 We both know/ believe this to be when satan is cast out of heaven.  I don't know that nor did John, for he certainly did not write of it. Jesus said after the tribulation of those days.....so where in Revelation do those days of GT end? The answer is, sometime late in the last half of the week. In Revelation it is going to be after the vials are poured out - so in chapter 16. The vials are what is going to SHORTEN those days of GT. (They begin after the warnings given in Rev. 14) Where then is Satan cast down? That is at the midpoint, maybe 3 years BEFORE the vials are poured out.  The signal for Michael to start the war in heaven will be the 7th trumpet. Your timing is WAY off here.  We cannot go by man's theories; we must go strictly by what is written.

I really hope you don't think Jesus leaves heaven at the 6th seal and actually shows His face on earth then. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, OneLight said:

Nope, as we read in Revelation 4:1

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”

Notice John says "like the sound of a trumpet speaking to me". meaning how brass the voice sounded.

The best anyone can do is come up with their own interpretations of what they believe scripture is saying, which is why I don't like to get into these discussions, and have not returned for some time.  All it is is interpretations, not complete truth.

I hope you know that "like" is only like, and not the same thing as. Jesus voice is NOT a real trumpet sound, but sounded LIKE a trumpet to John. But there IS the sound of a trump at the rapture: It is the "trump of God." There is no "like" here so I think it really will be a trumpet. 

[The Light]

52 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Quote

Not sure what point you were making then.  The rapture will be at the last trumpet as found in 1 Corinthians 15:52

The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, Rosh Hashanah. It is the fall fruit harvest.

Quote

- there is no trumpet blown in Revelation 4:1 as you claim.  "Come up here" was a command given to John so he could continue in the vision(s) God was giving him to write down.

The trump of God is the voice of God and which is clearly visible in Rev 4.

There is a difference between the last trump and the trump of God.

 

[The Light]

42 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I really hope you don't think Jesus leaves heaven at the 6th seal and actually shows His face on earth then. 

Jesus gathers his elect at the 6th seal as we can see in Matt 24 and Mark 13. It is the gathering that Paul talks about. The Church is gathered from heaven as they are in heaven because they were raptured pretrib. The 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth are gathered from the earth. This occurs at the end of the tribulation, immediately after the tribulation of those days.

Mark 13

²⁶ And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Jesus is in the clouds, not on earth. The wrath of God is about to begin. Exactly like the Word says.

[The Light]

52 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I hope you know that "like" is only like, and not the same thing as. Jesus voice is NOT a real trumpet sound, but sounded LIKE a trumpet to John. But there IS the sound of a trump at the rapture: It is the "trump of God." There is no "like" here so I think it really will be a trumpet. 

Oh Grasshopper, just read what it says. The Word speaks for itself.

Exodus 19

¹³ There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

¹⁴ And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.

¹⁵ And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.

¹⁶ And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.