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Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?


iamlamad

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1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. (Mat. 11:25)

As I read your comment, the above verse popped into my head. Do You really think Jesus is that complicated? Do You really think His Words are so complicated that we have to know the Nuances of the Greek language to comprehend what is said?

Shalom, dhchristian.

No, of course not. HOWEVER, I DO believe that our language and language usage has become so corrupt that we barely know what was originally meant in the Scriptures! It's not that He's so complicated; it's that we are so out-of-touch with His simple reality! We have so many synonyms and statements that need their contexts to know what is meant in those statements, that it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to fully understand the nuances of what is written without going back to the original languages!

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

If You take the time to read my Post, (which I am not done with yet) you will see a simplicity there that can be explained to the most novice of Bible students. About the Only complicated thing is the tool being used to come up with the chronology which is triangulation, and to most with a High school diploma you can explain this in about a half a page or so.

The Fact is, Jesus Spoke of an abomination which is yet to come.

No, He did not. You're ASSUMING that it is "yet to come" because you can't make sense of it in history; however, it DID happen in the First Century, even if you can't see it or recognize it. Why do you think God allowed the works of Josephus and those of Eusebius Pamphili and those of Epiphanius of Salamis to survive all these years? They give us the RECORD of what the Christians did in that early church of Jerusalem! They DID escape when they saw Jerusalem being surrounded by armies and when the Roman Gentiles stood within the Temple grounds, desecrating those grounds!

They escaped into the mountains of Israel and then to Pella in the region of the Decapolis ("Ten towns") in 66 A.D., long before the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. They managed to get out while God distracted their enemies, fighting against one another.

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

It did not come in 70AD because John does mention it in Revelation, and it is the  wrath of Satan.... His short while to do as he wills.

You'll have to show me where exactly. See, what you've said thus far sounds like you're talking about Revelation 20:7-8 and I HOPE that's NOT what you're talking about! That comes AFTER the Millennium, however, we will be resurrected BEFORE the Millennium begins!

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

The structure I pose is very simple, but counter intuitive to the intelligentsia. It is first and foremost based on common sense a Simple literary reading of the text. Although Revelation is written in a more complicated literary style when it comes to chronology, it is no different than say a Hollywood movie centered on an event similar to a Robert Altman film, where multiple stories are told all coming together at a certain event, for example like an airplane crash. Each story shows the story of a different victim in those movies, so they may jump back to the Pilot fighting in a war over "Macho Grande", and how this affects his love life, and then the story  jumps back and shows a family on the plane getting ready in the morning.... You catch my drift.... It is all just a simple story, no need for convoluted literary translations of words and Doctorate level Greek studies.

No, what YOU are doing is trying to walk on top of the fence, trying to satisfy both sides of the issue. That's a TREACHEROUSLY TRICKY position to try to maintain! Too far to one side, and your "simple" has fallen into the "inane"; too far to the other side, and you'll start to sound too much like the "intelligentsia" you're trying to avoid!

Oh, and thanks for the left-handed compliment: "Doctorate level Greek studies." Hardly. However, we need some to keep us on track as to how we're interpreting Scripture, especially those passages that are frequently misread. One of the simplest and most common errors, for instance, is "This is the day that the LORD has made! Let us rejoice and be glad in it!" How many different ways have you heard this verse applied? How many of those ways are even CLOSE to the true meaning of the text?

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

A Lot of what you are doing is nothing more than complicating the simple, and is a tactic as old as the church with Gnostics and the Greek Philosophers. But if you remember what Paul said about the wisdom of the wise in 1 cor. 1:19 then you will then begin to see that perhaps the approach you are taking is the wrong one to understanding Prophecy. For me Personally, I Have seen people use their extensive knowledge of Greek to corrupt the simplicity of the Gospel over and the resulting errors we are still dealing with in the church today. Lutheranism, Calvinism, are non-heretical errors, but errors nonetheless, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the SDA teachings of Ellen White are heretical. Jonathon Taze Russel particularly used his knowledge of the Greek to twist scripture to say exactly the opposite of what common sense dictated by using the wrong article in John 1:1,and I could list hundred of these sorts of examples. Unfortunately they are getting worse in this day of the WWW and common folk having access to translation software, and you are seeing knowledge increasing, But they are never arriving at the Truth.

I Am not saying theology is bad, or learning the nuances of the Greek language is bad, or that the access to these translation tools are bad for common people to have, but they can be used for ill gotten gain and or to lead into error. But when it comes to understanding prophecy simplicity is the way to go. Simply reading the Word of God as written, And the Spirit of Truth teaching you as you go. This is all you need. This is all I have chosen to use. Apart from Strong's concordance as a dictionary, this is pretty much all I have done to get where I am at, And you know what, how He has shown me the events are unfolding makes perfect sense. Take the time to read the following article on the strengths and dangers of Systematic theology, and you will better understand what I am getting at. Jesus did not use the brightest mind to propogate the truth, but the simple, and sometimes we lose sight of that fact. Even Paul who was well educated counted this as nothing compared to the Gospel, and called preaching the Gospel foolishness. It is from this rejection that he came up with his approach of Pauline Ignorance, similar to Socratic Ignorance which is what I am doing myself, trying to follow in his footsteps.

God Bless. 

Well, you can believe what you want to believe. However, you should be aware that much was changed in the First, Second, and Third Centuries A.D. This is why a church that started in Jerusalem is now a bunch of believers that know practically NOTHING about the Jews! Without that background, how can anyone HOPE to understand a book like Revelation?

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2 hours ago, OneLight said:

Not sure what point you were making then.  The rapture will be at the last trumpet as found in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - there is no trumpet blown in Revelation 4:1 as you claim.  "Come up here" was a command given to John so he could continue in the vision(s) God was giving him to write down.

Sure there is brother.............

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

All a Trumpet does a reverberate, the actual word used for Trumpet can mean a reverberation or a sound that rumbles. The very reason John tells us Jesus voice here is rumbling or reverberating is Jesus is the LAST TRUMP who calls off or ends the Harvest {Church Age} by calling us to the Marriage Chambers. Just like chapters 2 and 3 is the Church Age things WHICH ARE, Rev. 4:1 begins the things which are HEREAFTER. 

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1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, you can believe what you want to believe. However, you should be aware that much was changed in the First, Second, and Third Centuries A.D. This is why a church that started in Jerusalem is now a bunch of believers that know practically NOTHING about the Jews! Without that background, how can anyone HOPE to understand a book like Revelation?

Just realized I forgot to post the link I spoke about. Here it is.

https://www.challies.com/articles/10-strengths-and-10-dangers-of-systematic-theology/

I'll respond to the rest in the AM.

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8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I hope you know that "like" is only like, and not the same thing as. Jesus voice is NOT a real trumpet sound, but sounded LIKE a trumpet to John. But there IS the sound of a trump at the rapture: It is the "trump of God." There is no "like" here so I think it really will be a trumpet. 

That is the point I was making.  Jesus voice was like a trumpet, meaning it was brass, sharp, overwhelming, very noticeable, could not be ignored.

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8 hours ago, The Light said:

The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, Rosh Hashanah. It is the fall fruit harvest.

That is one theory which is possible.  Yet, where scripture is silent, so am I.

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6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Sure there is brother.............

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

All a Trumpet does a reverberate, the actual word used for Trumpet can mean a reverberation or a sound that rumbles. The very reason John tells us Jesus voice here is rumbling or reverberating is Jesus is the LAST TRUMP who calls off or ends the Harvest {Church Age} by calling us to the Marriage Chambers. Just like chapters 2 and 3 is the Church Age things WHICH ARE, Rev. 4:1 begins the things which are HEREAFTER. 

I don't stretch scripture like you do - I take it at face value.  Yes, John was describing what His voice sounded like, yet that does not mean this is the last trumpet.  Many other trumpets are seen in scripture after this description.  I cannot find anywhere in scripture that backs up your theory.  Even 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."  His voice will be the voice of an archangel, not like a trumpet, but there will be a definite trumpet of God sounding.

 

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8 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I hope that you don't think that i haphazardly inserted "GOD " or "JESUS " after the times that you see the word "Lord/LORD" in Psalm 110.  My insertions completely agree with the usage of the words, Yehovah, and Adonai.  Jesus used that same passage to rebuke the Pharisees that could not comprehend where John got his authority: 

Verse list:    
Mat 22:42-45 KJV    Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

P.S. yes I am saying that Jesus comes to Jerusalem with the opening of the 6th seal.   This is not only confirmed by Paul but other scriptures as well: 

 
Rom 11:25-26 KJV    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Jer 25:29-33 KJV    For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.


Joe 2:11 KJV    And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?


Joe 3:16 KJV    The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.


Amo 1:2 KJV    And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.


Rev 6:13-17 KJV    And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

These are all great scriptures, but none of them show clearly that Jesus leaves heaven and returns to earth at the 6th seal. We see a VERY clear coming in Rev. 19.  I wonder then, do you imagine the 6th seal is the same time as His coming in Rev. 19?

 

Note: I see His coming TO THE AIR (as per 1 Thes. 4 & 5) just before the 6th seal, but by the time the earthquake hits, the church and Jesus will be headed towards heaven, not scaring people to hide in the rocks. Therefore I think they IMAGINE that the Lamb is angry, imagine seeing His angry face, because they know from Old Testament verses that the Day of the Lord IS the wrath of God.  It is clear in the passage that the Father is on the throne, and they are scared of His face also. But it is not clear in this verse just where the Lamb is at the moment. I can only determine that from other scriptures.

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9 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Here it is again: 


Mat 24:15 KJVWhen ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:21-22 KJV. For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except THOSE DAYS should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

"THOSE DAYS" refers to WHEN the AoD is seen,  which will be followed by great tribulation. 

Mat 24:29 KJVImmediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

There  we see numerous events that are to follow "AFTER the tribulation of THOSE DAYS".  What tribulation?  The great tribulation mentioned in verses 21,22.

Mar 13:14 KJVBut when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mar 13:19-20 KJVFor in THOSE DAYS shall be affliction, such as was not (unparalleled) from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:24-25 KJVBut in THOSE DAYS, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the STARS OF HEAVEN shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

This was the exact parallel to Matthew where we see the following order of events:  AoD, G.T.,Sun darkened, Moon not giving light, STARS OF  HEAVEN fall, Powers shaken.


Rev 6:12-13 KJV    And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the STARS OF  HEAVEN fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

You may fail to equate Satan's fall from heaven with the "stars falling from heaven" in Matt 24:29, but it would(is) another matter to dissociate it (Matt 24:29)with what is said about it in the account of the 6th seal of Rev 6.   John even interprets his symbolic use of "stars of heaven" to be his angels. 

  
Rev 12:4 KJV    And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


Rev 12:9 KJV    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

Mat 24:3 KJVAnd as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the SIGN of thy COMING, and of the end of the world?

The disciples asked for the sign of the parousia/ coming. 
Mat 24:30 KJVAnd then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven: 

The Sign is given just prior to (and IS NOT) the coming of Jesus. 

and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mar 13:26 KJVAnd THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Luk 21:27 KJV And THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

What accompanies his erchomai? 

Mat 24:31 KJVAnd he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar 13:27 KJVAnd then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other.   Of particular note is the great trumpet that Matthew tells. 

Because 1 Cor 15 reveals that the kingdom is inherited at the LAST trumpet,  the coming of Jesus (with a trumpet) in the O.D. cannot be his coming at Armageddon,  BECAUSE it would be a trumpet that takes place AFTER the 7th,  making for 2 LAST trumpets. 

As for your other point about WHEN the great tribulation takes place,  you are grasping for something that not only is not there,  but there are scriptures that refute your notion of when it takes place. 

Nowhere do the scriptures say that those souls that were beheaded are the souls that came out of great tribulation.   That is strictly the imagination of your heart.   I dare you to prove me wrong with scripture.   Not only that but Rev 7, BEFORE THE 7TH SEAL IS OPENED SAYS THIS: 

Verse list:    
Rev 7:9 KJV    After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:13-14 KJV    And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which CAME OUT of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This is in perfect accord with the events that precede the stars falling from heaven with the opening of the 6th seal. 

Claiming that Michael stands up at the 7th trumpet is again another fallacy of your imagination and a contradiction of scripture.   To make the markers of time that John gives us,  [1260 days,  42 months and time, times and half a time]  all equal to each other,  is not only not supported by scripture (but only in your mind)  is to find yourself siding without the philosophy of antichrist who desires to change times and seasons. 

Dan 7:25 KJV And he shall speak great words AGAINST the MOST HIGH, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

When Michael stands up to kick Satan out of heaven,  unto the earth for a period of time, times,  and half a time,  [according to God's ordinances of time for months and seasons], 3.5 years will contain only either 43 or 44 months, and never 42 months.   42 months would be 1239 days and 43  months would be 29 or 30 days longer (1268 or 1269, or on rare occasions,  1270).  The imaginations of your heart have gotten you to believe things that are just not true. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

P.S.  If you try to equate those who are beheaded as those martyrs from the 5th seal,  your view of the 5th seal would automatically create a contradiction [because you are then agreeing that the great tribulation takes place BEFORE the opening of the 6th seal].

I knew, before this disagreement ended, you would attempt to show the cosmic signs in Matthew 24 as the equivalent of the signs at the 6th seal. Have you really studied these signs to prove they are the same? Have you really studied the other scriptures to see of they fit the same timing? 

As we both know, real "stars" such as our sun, cannot fall to earth. They are either angels or meteorites. And this kind of thing can happen numerous times.  What is the real meaning of the signs at the 6th seal, and as found in Joel 2? WHEN does the moon appear blood red? We know God has the power to change the moon into cheese, but it seems God often uses NATURAL events to do His will. We know that the moon appears blood red during a lunar eclipse. We also know that the sun appears black during a solar eclipse.  This then seems to be the simplest explanation of the 6th seal sign. Keep in mind, it is the sign for the start of the DAY, as John wrote, the Day of His Wrath has come.  How would one KNOW if the sun appeared black, like at an eclipse? Or how would one KNOW of the moon was red in color? They would have to SEE with their eyes the moon and sun.

If we examine the signs in the sun and moon in Matthew 24, AFTER the days of GT, We see a totally different sign: neither the sun or moon can be seen.  The Greek tells us for "darkened" that it is the total absence of light. Even the stars give no light. God is telling us it is total darkness. And this is the sign for HIS COMING, not for the Day. 

The truth then is that we see TWO different signs, for TWO different purposes, at TWO different times. 

Finally, we have to notice WHAT causes the days of GT, WHO causes them, and where we really find them in Revelation. 

WHAT causes those days of GT Jesus spoke of? John tells us, forcing people to bow to an image, and forcing people to accept the mark; both of these under the threat of death. It is just common sense, God is not going to give His warning about the mark after the fact: therefore, the days of GT that Jesus spoke of are not going to start in Revelation until AFTER the warning given in chapter 14. Next, we see the beheaded BEGIN to show up in chapter 15.  Why then would ANYONE suggest the days of GT are somewhere or anywhere in the seals? It is only because they don't really understand John's chronology.

WHO causes the days of GT? Jesus said those days would start after the abomination. It will be the Man of sin possessed by Satan and becoming the Beast of Rev. 13 that will CAUSE those days of GT, but the planning is caused by the False Prophet. The image and mark or his plans. So who causes the GT? It will be the Antichrist Beast AND the False Prophet. And the truth of scripture is, these two don't even SHOW UP until after the midpoint of the week! Again, why would ANYONE suggest the days of GT that Jesus spoke of would be anywhere in the first half of the week, or in the seals before the week? It is because they don't understand John's chronology.

"THOSE DAYS" refers to WHEN the AoD is seen,  which will be followed by great tribulation.   Truth. Good statement. But WHEN in the Week will the AoD be seen? According to other scriptures, this AoD is what will divide the week - so it will be seen at the midpoint of the 70th week. Jesus said the moment people in Judea SEE this abomination, they are to flee, so we know the fleeing will be seconds after the abomination.  Therefore we can tell that the abomination Jesus spoke of will be somewhere just before Rev. 12:6 when those in Judea begin to flee. We can also show that the midpoint MUST be somewhere in chapters 11 through 13 because of the 5 mentions of the last 3.5 years of the week: 5 countdowns from the midpoint to the end.  Therefore, logic tells us the AoD will be somewhere in chapters 11-13, so the days of GT MUST follow after: chapters 14,15 or 16. And that is exactly what is proven other ways.

we see the following order of events:  AoD, G.T.,Sun darkened, Moon not giving light, STARS OF  HEAVEN fall, Powers shaken.  True. But these are NOT THE SAME SIGNS as we see at the 6th seal.  Only human imagination would try and tie these two events together, and then only someone's imagination who does not understand John's chronology. They are DIFFERENT signs and the truth is, all the events John lists from chapters 7 through chapters 14 happen BETWEEN the 6th seal signs and the "after the tribulation" signs.

You may fail to equate Satan's fall from heaven with the "stars falling from heaven"  Wow!  No one would even THINK this if they understood John's chronology. First, what will be the SIGNAL for Michael to go to war with Satan? Do you know? It will be the 7th trumpet. At the sounding of the 7th trumpet, Michael will go to war. But WHEN during the week is that? It is AT THE MIDPOINT. 

Now lets slow down and THINK: the 6th seal is one of 7 seals sealing a BOOK. The purpose of God is to break or open these seals so that THE BOOK can be opened - for inside the book will be the trumpet judgments, and the last and final trumpet  - the 7th - will see Satan dethroned: the kingdoms of the world will be stripped from Satan and given to Jesus Christ.  WHEN? At the midpoint of the week. NO trumpet can be sounded until all 7 seals are opened. The moment the 7th seal is opened, then the BOOK is opened. So NO trumpet can possibly be sounded until all 7 seals are opened first. Do you see how impossible it would be for the 6th seal events to line up in time with the signs after the days of GT are over? 

We haven't even mentioned the vials: they are what God will use to SHORTEN those days of GT. So that is proof positive that the days of GT are still going strong at the first vial in chapter 16. The truth is, anyone who imagines the days of GT are in the seals just does not understand John's chronology.   I am out of time.

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9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:
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The Fact is, Jesus Spoke of an abomination which is yet to come.

No, He did not. You're ASSUMING that it is "yet to come" because you can't make sense of it in history; however, it DID happen in the First Century, even if you can't see it or recognize it. Why do you think God allowed the works of Josephus and those of Eusebius Pamphili and those of Epiphanius of Salamis to survive all these years? They give us the RECORD of what the Christians did in that early church of Jerusalem! They DID escape when they saw Jerusalem being surrounded by armies and when the Roman Gentiles stood within the Temple grounds, desecrating those grounds!

They escaped into the mountains of Israel and then to Pella in the region of the Decapolis ("Ten towns") in 66 A.D., long before the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. They managed to get out while God distracted their enemies, fighting against one another.

I Address this in my Post on John's chronology. It is in the section on immanency.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:
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It did not come in 70AD because John does mention it in Revelation, and it is the  wrath of Satan.... His short while to do as he wills.

You'll have to show me where exactly. See, what you've said thus far sounds like you're talking about Revelation 20:7-8 and I HOPE that's NOT what you're talking about! That comes AFTER the Millennium, however, we will be resurrected BEFORE the Millennium begins!

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. (Rev 13;5-6) Coupled 12:6ff Where the Woman flees into the Wilderness, Satan is cast down to earth and He comes in great wrath... which is to say great tribulation. 

 

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, what YOU are doing is trying to walk on top of the fence, trying to satisfy both sides of the issue. That's a TREACHEROUSLY TRICKY position to try to maintain! Too far to one side, and your "simple" has fallen into the "inane"; too far to the other side, and you'll start to sound too much like the "intelligentsia" you're trying to avoid!

Oh, and thanks for the left-handed compliment: "Doctorate level Greek studies." Hardly. However, we need some to keep us on track as to how we're interpreting Scripture, especially those passages that are frequently misread. One of the simplest and most common errors, for instance, is "This is the day that the LORD has made! Let us rejoice and be glad in it!" How many different ways have you heard this verse applied? How many of those ways are even CLOSE to the true meaning of the text?

Have you ever had God speak to you through a verse that was totally out of context with the intent of the Author and applied it to you? He has with me, as my calling comes from a passage in Isaiah that clearly talks about Jacob yet He applied this to myself ,and it has proven to be true in my service to Him. This is the Problem with theology alone at approaching the Word of God, There is revelation and relationship as well, as the Word of God comes to life. I Do not discount nor negate theology, and Greek studies, or even Hebrew studies, But just like the Hebrew roots movement has distorted the Gospel of Grace, so too can this sort of rigid intellectual approach to scriptures. A.W. Tozer called this the Cult of textualism, And if You are not familiar with this term, You should be, because it the exact opposite of the Post modernist mindset of relativism.

Scroll down in this Link to the sub title "Falls victim to its virtues" to Understand this...

 http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19117&forum=36

You say I am walking the fence, That is a compliment, and yes it is "treacherously tricky", You have to keep your eyes fixed on Jesus and the cross, He is the "Way".  Paul writes: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: (Eph 4:14-15)  He acknowledges that narrow way upon which we walk, the fence if you will, and encourages us to continue in this not falling back into the cunning craftiness of man centered religion. With that I encourage you yourself to turn your focus back on Christ Jesus and the simplicity of the Gospel of Grace. When You do, the Word of God will come to life, and the divine revelations will broaden your understanding of the Bible as well as enrich your relationship with Christ Jesus. He lives in the Word of God, if you let him become the head, and not the hierarchy of men, and the wisdom of men. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Cor 2;5)  

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4 hours ago, OneLight said:

I don't stretch scripture like you do - I take it at face value.  Yes, John was describing what His voice sounded like, yet that does not mean this is the last trumpet.  Many other trumpets are seen in scripture after this description.  I cannot find anywhere in scripture that backs up your theory.  Even 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."  His voice will be the voice of an archangel, not like a trumpet, but there will be a definite trumpet of God sounding.

 

And Jesus spoke to us in parables so that we would hear and understand, but the world wouldn't understand when they heard the exact same words of wisdom. The Rapture was not for Israel, thus it was never a part of the Old Testament, save glimpses here and there, and the Disciples were writing about the Gospels/New Testament/Revelation for about 60 years from 33 AD to 94 ADish. 

The Epistles of Paul were never meant by him to be Canonized as scriptures or he would have been more careful to fill in the details, instead of saying don't you remember when I was with you I told you these things, then speaking about things they spoke of, except not giving full clarity in many cases, or us not having the "Churches" letters unto Paul, so we were getting half of a conversation. The Prophets wrote "Thus saith the Lord" and it was 100 percent of God, Paul was writing to the Churches in Asia Minor, its was meant to persuade them of the Gospel and to teach them how ti live in Christ Jesus and to eventually operate in the Holy Spirit. But if we get only half of what hes speaking about because he spoke in person with them first and then just kinda vaguely references these things in a letter, we are not getting the full gist, so these letters in many cases are not clear enough to us, if we were not there for the speeches Paul gave also. This is why we have people who thing 2 Thess. 2 is a Falling Away from the Faith instead of a Departing of the Church from the earth. 

Revelation is THE ENCODED Word of God, you can't understand it without decoding it. So if you take the book of Revelation at face value you have no hope understanding it at all. His voice will reverberate like a Trump, so says Rev. 4:1 and there are other passages that say this also, have you ever head a voice that is loud enough to be heard worldwide but that only certain people can hear ? Its going to have to reverberate. I have studied in depth this word reverberation via bible scriptures, its not a Trump always, many times where the word trump is used it just means a reverberating sound. Those English Translators did us no favors. 

 Revelation 4:1 After 3326 this 5023 I looked, 1492 z5627 and 2532 beholde, 2400 z5628 a doore 2374 was opened 455 z5772 in 1722 heauen: 3772 and 2532 the x3588 first 4413 voice 5456 which 3739 I heard, 191 z5656 was as it were x5613 of y5613 a trumpet, 4536 talking 2980 z5723 with 3326 me, 1700 which said, 3004 z5723 Come vp 305 z5628 hither, 5602 and 2532 I will shew 1166 z5692 thee 4671 things which 3739 must 1163 z5748 be 1096 z5635 hereafter. 3326 5023

 

#4536 σάλπιγξ salpigx {sal'-pinx}  from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); TDNT - 7:71,997; n f

—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) a trumpet

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); a trumpet:—trump (-et).

—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

Its Jesus voice that Reverberates according to John who actually SAW what happened in a vision. He said Jesus' voice SOUNDED as if it were a TRUMPET, thus his voice REVERBERATED SOUND WAVES !! 

All I can do is put forth the word is we have been given it brother. Jesus' voice calls us up, it is the "Trumpet Signal' to come home. 

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