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Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?


iamlamad

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1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating: You CAN'T REUSE PROPHECY SCRIPTURES! That's like trying to reuse a Kleenex!

There's such a thing as a "Double Reference.: This is defined in Douglas Connelly's book Bible Prophecy For Blockheads (Zondervan, Grand Rapids, MI, 2002) in the Techno-Speak section on page 33:

HOWEVER, a Scripture passage CANNOT be reused to talk of two different events in human history with the same words! Think about it for a moment:

Moses said in the Torah (Pentateuch),

Deuteronomy 18:15-22 (KJV)

15 "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying,

'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.'

17 And the LORD said unto me,

'They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.'

21 And if thou say in thine heart,

'How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?'

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

So, each prophecy should each have its own fulfillment. If the fulfillment never comes, THEN one knows that the one who spoke the "prophecy" is/was a FALSE (LYING) PROPHET!

Now, a prophet spoke prophecies both near and far off into the future. IF that prophet's near prophecies didn't come true, then they were to be labeled a "FALSE prophet," not to be afraid of him, and to stone that so-called "prophet," for lying about what he claimed YHWH wanted him to speak.

Now, here's the part to consider: If a particular prophecy could be fulfilled twice, what would keep the potentially "false prophet" from claiming that it wasn't for THIS time; it was for the future fulfillment, just to spare his neck?

No, each prophecy of God must have EXACTLY ONE fulfillment and no other. It's a ONE-TO-ONE relationship! If it was a ONE-TO-MANY relationship, then one couldn't tell WHEN the prophecy had been fulfilled so they could judge whether that prophet was from God, and the above Scripture passage would be MEANINGLESS!

Now, the second half of the Seventieth Seven (which is all that is left) is not a time of wrath, but a time of RESCUE. So, that RESCUE includes wrath toward those who are threatening His people, but the RESCUE is a proof that the Messiah is indeed God's Messiah come to reign over Israel (and consequently over the entire earth).

SO,...

If you can say, "I am not disagreeing that these verses had meaning for THEN," then there IS NO future fulfillment! The one precludes the other.

You may be right; perhaps that particular vere was meant only for the past: but when Paul mentions a day of the Lord for our future, then There remains a day of the Lord in our future. John called it the Day of his wrath. There is 23 (If I counted right) mentions of the "Day of the Lord" in the Old Testament. I am sure there is one that will satisfy you as being in our future.  Then there are many more that say "in that day." 

Now, the second half of the Seventieth Seven (which is all that is left) is not a time of wrath, but a time of RESCUE.  You are still in error. It is impossible to divide a half an apple and end up with two halves. There must be and there WILL be an entire week in our future. You can believe in a half week all you want, but when the entire week is IN OUR FUTURE divided in half - when the man of sin enters the temple -  you will be proven in error. 

First, let's delineate the week: it begins at the 7th seal and ends with the 7th vial. 

Now, lets delineate His wrath: it begins at the 6th seal before the week begins and continues on through the entire week, building as it goes. The vials are filled with His wrath. Therefore you are in error yet again on wrath: the midpoint of the week is the 7th trumpet. So the vials, filled with His wrath are most certainly in the last half of the week and it is most certainly a time of wrath..

Perhaps you will discover this verse as pertaining to our future. 

Zech. 14:1  Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

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5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You may be right; perhaps that particular vere was meant only for the past: but when Paul mentions a day of the Lord for our future, then There remains a day of the Lord in our future. John called it the Day of his wrath. There is 23 (If I counted right) mentions of the "Day of the Lord" in the Old Testament. I am sure there is one that will satisfy you as being in our future.  Then there are many more that say "in that day." 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Yes, there is a "day of the Lord" in the future. The phrase "day of the Lord" is NOT unique in the Scriptures. In fact, there were MANY "days of the LORD" in prophecy. You need to understand a particular truth, though: The "day of the LORD" is not necessarily the same as the "day of the Lord." The problem is translation into Greek.

First, the Hebrew: See, the Name, "YHWH," was translated into English as "the LORD" in the Tanakh (the Old Testament). AND, the title "Adonay" was also translated into English as "the Lord." The difference between the capitalized "Lord" and the all-caps "LORD" is VERY significant! This is particularly true for the King James (Authorized) Version of the Bible. The  NEW versions often give them both as simply "Lord," without distinction. (THAT'S a HUGE problem, btw!)

In the Greek New Testament, both words were translated into Greek as "Kurios," although the ancient Greek texts were not careful about capital letters like we are today in English. Some versions are in all caps. Other Greek versions use only miniscule letters (lower case letters). Still other Greek versions used a still different "uncial" script, which consisted of capital letters written differently. And, other Greek versions use a combination of two, either miniscules and uncials, or miniscules and capitals.

Suffice it to say, that both "YHWH" and "Adonay" were translated as "Kurios," and "Kurios" was in turn translated into English as "Lord" in English. Thus, in translation, if the New Testament quotes from the Old Testament, sometimes "Lord" refers to "YHWH," and sometimes "Lord" refers to "Adonay."

The clearest example is in the quote of Psalm 110:1 found in Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36, and Luke 20:42-43:

Psalm 110:1 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm of David.}

The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

Matthew 22:41-46 (KJV)

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying,

"What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?"

They say unto him, 

"The Son of David."

43 He saith unto them,

"How then doth David in spirit call him 'Lord,' saying,

44 'The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?"'

45 If David then call him 'Lord,' how is he his son? 

46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Mark 12:35-37 (KJV)

35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple,

"How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost,

'The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

37 David therefore himself calleth him 'Lord'; and whence is he then his son?" 

And the common people heard him gladly.

Luke 20:39-47 (KJV)

39 Then certain of the scribes answering said,

"Master, thou hast well said."

40 And after that they durst not ask him any question at all. 41 And he said unto them,

"How say they that Christ is David's son? 42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms,

'The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit thou on my right hand, 43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool."'

44 David therefore calleth him 'Lord,' how is he then his son?"

45 Then in the audience (hearing) of all the people he said unto his disciples, 

46 "Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; 47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation."

The KJV has taken the Tanakh into consideration within the translation process and translates the word "kurios" in light of the verse quoted, but the Greek still shows the same word in both places:

Kata Maththaion 22:44 (Greek New Testament)

44 "'Eipen kurios too kurioo mou, "Kathou ek dexioon mou heoos an thoo tous echthrous sou hupokatoo toon podoon sou"';"

Kata Markon 12:36 (Greek New Testament)

36 "autos Dauid eipen en too pneumati too hagioo,

'Eipen kurios too kurioo mou, "Kathou ek dexioon mou heoos an thoo tous echthrous sou hupokatoo toon podoon sou."'"

Kata Loukan 20:42-43 (Greek New Testament)

42 "autos gar Dauid legei en bibloo psalmoon,

'Eipen kurios too kurioo mou, "Kathou ek dexioon mou 43 heoos an thoo tous echthrous sou hupopodion toon podoon sou."'"

My point is this: YHWH, who is God the Father, is called "kurios" and the Lord Yeshua` the Messiah, who is the Son of God, is also called "kurios" in the New Testament. So, if one reads, "heemera kuriou," which is strictly interpreted as "day of-lord," it may be talking about a "Day of YHWH," or it may be referring to a "Day of Lord [Yeshua`]," which would be referring to Messiah Yeshua`s second coming!

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Now, the second half of the Seventieth Seven (which is all that is left) is not a time of wrath, but a time of RESCUE.  You are still in error. It is impossible to divide a half an apple and end up with two halves. There must be and there WILL be an entire week in our future. You can believe in a half week all you want, but when the entire week is IN OUR FUTURE divided in half - when the man of sin enters the temple -  you will be proven in error. 

Actually, no. The first half of the Week (Seven) was Yeshua`s offer of the Kingdom to the Jews and Israel during His first coming - His first advent. The three and a half years in which He offered Himself as "King of the Jews" led to the offer being rejected by the politicians of His day - the elders of the Jews (the Sanhedrin) and the priests.

The 2,000-year time period, which you all call "the church age," which is actually called the Time of Jacob's Trouble, IS the "tribulation period." There's only 1/2 of the Seven left, and it will begin with Yeshua`s offer of the Kingdom to those whom He rescues when He returns.

The "midpoint of the Seven" is NOT marked by "the man of sin entering the temple." That's a misreading of Daniel 9:26-27. It was marked by the Messiah leaving the Jews of Jerusalem DESOLATE in Matthew 23:38, which ACCURATELY reads the prophecy of Daniel 9. When Yeshua` was resurrected and ascended into the sky, He took His offer of the Kingdom with Him, rescinding His first offer.

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

First, let's delineate the week: it begins at the 7th seal and ends with the 7th vial. 

Now, lets delineate His wrath: it begins at the 6th seal before the week begins and continues on through the entire week, building as it goes. The vials are filled with His wrath. Therefore you are in error yet again on wrath: the midpoint of the week is the 7th trumpet. So the vials, filled with His wrath are most certainly in the last half of the week and it is most certainly a time of wrath..

Perhaps you will discover this verse as pertaining to our future. 

Zech. 14:1  Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

Look at the WHOLE prophecy, not just the portion you want to use for your position.

Zechariah 14:1-11 (KJV)

1 Behold, the day of the LORD (Hebrew: yowm YHWH = "a-day of-YHWH") cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

This is the CAUSE and the REASON for the RESCUE that YHWH will provide for His people in Jerusalem!

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye (the Jews to whom Tz'kharyahu is talking) shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal (a place near the Yarden or Jordan River): yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

The Hebrew of these verses is not translated very well here. Here's the Hebrew transliterated:

6 Vhaayaah bayowm hahuw' lo'-yihyeh owr yqaarowt yiqp'uwn vqipaa'own: 7 Vhaayaah yowm-echaad huw' yivvaada` layhvaah lo'-yowm vlo'-laaylaah vhaayaah l`eet-`ereV yihyeh-'owr:

And, the JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh translates them as...

6 In that day, there shall be neither sunlight nor cold moonlight, 7 but there shall be a continuous day of neither day nor night, and there shall be light at eventide.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living (rushing) waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former (eastern or Dead) sea, and half of them toward the hinder (western or Mediterranean) sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

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Roy, first, thanks for the lesson. You can continue to believe there is only a half week ahead of us, and it will not bother me at all. Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe. I can only tell you that you are mistaken.  Really, it is just common sense and logic: Dan. 9:27 tells us of SOME EVENT that will divide the week (The Hebrew word translated "midst") and stop the daily sacrifices. Paul gives us a very good hint of what event that is going to be. The man of sin is going to enter the most holy place in the temple, and instantly the sacrifices must stop. ONLY the high priest is allowed into the holy of holies - and that only once a year. The moment this man of sin - probably a Gentile  - enters the temple, the sacrifices must stop until the temple can be cleansed (think of a red heifer without spot or blemish.) This is FUTURE, not history. Jesus certainly did not stop the daily sacrifices at His death and resurrection. He may have stopped the REASON for them, but they continued on to 70 AD. It is therefore a silly argument that Jesus fulfilled Dan. 9:27 in stopping the sacrifices. 

It is like I told have written before: take an apple and divide it in half. Eat half and put the other half in the refer.  No, tomorrow take that half out of the refer and divide it into half. You end up with quarters, not halves. When the man of sin enters the temple and abominates (new word for simplicity) that is the abomination Jesus spoke of. It is when those in Judea will flee, AND it still stop the daily sacrifices.

Is it possible to have a "midpoint" of a period of 7 years when one half the week was around 32 AD and the other half is future?  Where then would the "midpoint" be? In 35.5 AD or some time in our future? Sorry, but the only way to have a real "midpoint" is to have an entire week in our future - which is exactly what John shows us in Revelation. 

One day while I was reading Daniel 9, when I got to verse 27 and got to the word "midst" SUDDENLY Gpd spoke: (it sounded like an audible voice, but now I realize He was talking to my spirit man) and said, "you could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of REvelation."  My spirit man asked Him how we could find that, and He spoke again:  "Every time I mentioned and event that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the three and a half year period of time. When you find the mentions of the three and one half year period of time, you will be VERY CLOSE to the exact midpoint. In fact, you could find the entire 70th week clearly marked."

So, Roy, what can we learn from this? First, we can know beyond any doubt that there IS a midpoint. From that we can know that there is an ENTIRE WEEK in our future that will be divided into two halves. Next, we know that somewhere John shows us this midpoint and it is marked somehow. And we can know that God has used the same marked for the start of the week, the midpoint and the end. 

I went on a diligent search for that "midpoint" clearly marked. I found it finally with  the 7th trumpet as the midpoint "marker." I instantly then rushed in my bible to the 7th vial ("the same marker") and read "It is done." I knew at that instant I have found the entire 70th week "marked." I rushed to the 7th seal as confirmation and read of the thirty minutes of silence, and was convinced. The Holy Spirit in me was confirming I had found what Jesus had sent me to find. 

Therefore I am convinced the truth of scripture is that there is an entire 70th week in the book of Revelation, with a midpoint clearly marked  & the entire week marked by the 7's. The trumpet judgments come in the first half, and the vials in the second half. Jesus told the Jews in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination, and we see that fleeing in 12:6. That verse, therefore, is only seconds past the abomination event that will divide the week.

It is OK if you still wish to believe there is only half a week left. Can you understand now why I believe as I do? I heard from the Master. 

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On 11/28/2019 at 10:33 AM, iamlamad said:

Next, we know that somewhere John shows us this midpoint and it is marked somehow. And we can know that God has used the same marked for the start of the week, the midpoint and the end. 

I have generally seen the mid point as when the two witnesses are killed in Revelation 11.  It further amplifies that The Revelation is both parenthetical and linear.   I am convinced they start giving the antichrist (more literally in the Greek, pseudo christ which means in place of Christ, false Christ, etc) a problem at the time of the confirming of the covenant of Daniel 9:27 which ties in to Seal One.  Then when this pseudo christ has consolidated His power and has had enough of these guys, He slaughters them. Since no one has been able to touch these guys before, he will use that as a proof that he is God and will enter and defile the temple. 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

When the two witnesses are resurrected and caught up, this I think is the point that outrages this pseudo christ to then pursue the woman (Israel) of Revelation 12 into the wilderness, but the Lord will protect her there for 42 months (the second 42 months).  Yeshua (Jesus) has already instructed those in Judea that see this pseudo christ enter the Holy of Holies to flee. Matthew 24:15.  

This view may not be totally correct, but it seems closest to the one major thing that gets not only Israel's but the entire world's attention and focus on Jerusalem and specifically the Temple and more qualifies as the mid point event where the covenant that was confirmed at the start of the 70th week is now broken.  These witnesses had been causing the pseudo christ and the world for that matter trouble for 42 months / 1260 days.  Now the pseudo christ is going to really expose himself for who he is.  No more mr. nice guy and no more covenant.  One could say, pseudo christ on steroids.

 

Edited by OldCoot
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Has anyone thought about just why the Jews would resume the daily sacrifices? And just how that would work?

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10 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I have generally seen the mid point as when the two witnesses are killed in Revelation 11.  It further amplifies that The Revelation is both parenthetical and linear.   I am convinced they start giving the antichrist (more literally in the Greek, pseudo christ which means in place of Christ, false Christ, etc) a problem at the time of the confirming of the covenant of Daniel 9:27 which ties in to Seal One.  Then when this pseudo christ has consolidated His power and has had enough of these guys, He slaughters them. Since no one has been able to touch these guys before, he will use that as a proof that he is God and will enter and defile the temple. 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

When the two witnesses are resurrected and caught up, this I think is the point that outrages this pseudo christ to then pursue the woman (Israel) of Revelation 12 into the wilderness, but the Lord will protect her there for 42 months (the second 42 months).  Yeshua (Jesus) has already instructed those in Judea that see this pseudo christ enter the Holy of Holies to flee. Matthew 24:15.  

This view may not be totally correct, but it seems closest to the one major thing that gets not only Israel's but the entire world's attention and focus on Jerusalem and specifically the Temple and more qualifies as the mid point event where the covenant that was confirmed at the start of the 70th week is now broken.  These witnesses had been causing the pseudo christ and the world for that matter trouble for 42 months / 1260 days.  Now the pseudo christ is going to really expose himself for who he is.  No more mr. nice guy and no more covenant.  One could say, pseudo christ on steroids.

All I can say is, when Jesus was teaching me, He told me:  "Every time I mentioned and even that will go from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be VERY close to the exact midpoint."  (He had sent me to find the exact midpoint.)

What can we learn from His words? First that all five of the mentions of the 3.5 years are about the LAST half of the week. That means NONE of the five mentions are to happen in the first half of the week. 

The two witnesses are indeed difficult - unless you feel free to rearrange; then one can just move their appearance back to the first trumpet when the week begins. For some though, rearranging is impossible. I believe God wrote it in perfect order. So, WHERE IS john in 11:1? Since there are two mentions of the 3.5 year period of time, it most certainly is a MIDPOINT chapter -  as os chapters 12 & 13. All have countdowns from the midpoint to the end of the week.

Therefore, John saw or heard that the city would be trampled by Gentiles for 42 months, then suddenly saw or heard that the two witnesses suddenly showed up, RIGHT THEN. But WHEN is then? If we study, we will find they show up just 3.5  days before the exact midpoint; testify then for 1260 days, which take them to just 3.5 days before the end of the week.  This fits with what Jesus spoke to me and fits what I read. It seems then, John used a parenthesis in chapter 11; from verse 4 to verse 13. In other words, once John introduces us to the two witnesses, he takes us on a side journey (outside his chronology) down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only.  In fact, John does the same thing with the two beasts in chapter 13. 

For chronology, we have the city being trampled for 42 months in verse 2, showing is John is very close to the midpoint (probably 3 1/2 days before the midpoint) and then in verse three the two witnesses show up and begin their 1260 days, then 3 1/2 days later the man of in will enter the temple and declare he is God, dividing the week. Then in 12:6 those in judea flee. This is how I see it.

John gives us 5 different countdowns to the ending of the week, but with staggered starts. The 42 months start them. They all end at or near the 7th vial that ends the week. But since the 42 months of Authority start last, his 42 months ends last, when Jesus returns. I might add, John then has 5 parallel paths to the end from chapter 13 on, with perhaps a 6th being his narrative. 

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11 hours ago, Alive said:

Has anyone thought about just why the Jews would resume the daily sacrifices? And just how that would work?

They have been working VERY hard at it. They have been searching for years for a line of red heifers with no spots. They have their robes prepared. What they need is their new temple. I am convinced it is coming.

WHY? Because they think they are still under the OLD covenant!

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On 11/28/2019 at 6:23 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Comments:

The happenings after tribulation

Do you see? The environment will not be good in the whole earth, but terrible. How will the peoples feel within such terrible environment? "Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (Luke 21:v.26)

 

Why will the power of heaven be shaken?

Now, now, it because there will be WAR in heaven: Michael and his messengers will fight against the red Dragon; and the Dragon will fight and his messengers, but they will not prevail; neither will be their place found any more in heaven. And Michael and thouse which are with him they will overcome the red Dragon by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they will not love their lives unto the death. Revelation 12:v.7-8 & 11.

 

The coming of the Son of man

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory". (Luke 21:v.26-27)     For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel - Michael - , and with the trump of God - the God's trumpet is with Michael -1 Thessalonians 4:v.16 - and the dead in Christ shall rise first.   -  Then will be fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel 12:v.1-3  -

 

What about the Church of the LORD?

The Church of the Lord - Revelation 12:v.1 - will be clothed with the (*Sun) Greater Light to rule the day (Gen.1.v.16), and the (*Moon) the Lesser Light will be under her feet to rule the night: the *Stars also was made for to shine as the brightness of the firmament and their works is to turn many to righteousness as is revealed in the Word of God through the prophet Daniel 12:v.3. The woman has the support of the Greater Light, and of the Lesser light, and of the twelve Stars.    
 

Analysing by parables or allegories
By parable the Greater Light is JESUS, the Lesser Light is the Holy Spirit, and the crown of twelve Stars upon the head of the woman are the twelve Apostles, by the way, the twelve tribes of Israel should be Judged by the twelve Apostles of the LORD (Matt.19:v.28), even now in this time of  regeneration, for the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory.

The stars of heaven shall fall 

Terrible! Terrible! Very terrible! Yes, the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Notice that the stars will fall but not by the power or influence of the seven heads of the Dragon (7 kings and 7 mountains of the Beast of sea), neither by the power or influence of the 10 horns (10 kings which will receive power as kings one hour with the Beast of sea), but the stars will fall by the power and influence of the devilish TAIL of the Dragon. Where or what place the TAIL of the red Dragon is located in?  

By the way, what do you think is heaven? On the other hand, the woman in HEAVEN is face to face with the red Dragon of 7 heads, 10 horns and a devilish, satanic,TAIL, this terrible spiritual environment is the cause of the sun be darkened and the moon gives not her light.  This PICTURE seems SPIRITUALLY as whether a total lunar and solar "eclipse". 
 

The coming of the Son of man and the resurrection

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in A cloud with power and great glory". (Luke 21:v.26-27) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel -Michael-, and with the trump of God - the God's trumpet is with Michael -1 Thessalonians 4:v.16- and the dead in Christ shall rise first.  -  Then will be fulfilled the prophecy about Michael of Daniel 12:v.1-3  -

Oh yes, Revelation 12:v.9-12 show us this great and wonderful event:

9 And the great Red Dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the WHOLE WORLD: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels (2 Corinthians 11:v.13-15) were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW IS COME SALVATION, and strength, and the KINGDOM of our God(Revelation 11:v.15&18),and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. 
 

Matt.13:v.30 & 40-43
30 In the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered (FIRST) and burned in the FIRE; so shall it be in the END OF THIS WORLD.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather out of HIS KINGDOM -the kingdom of God is within you- all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun -the woman is clothed with sun-in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


In Christ JESUS, KING of kings(kings made by Him) and LORD of lords

Shabbat shalom, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira.

Wow. There are several minor things wrong with this post, but there are two MAJOR errors that I'll cover, first.

First, anyone who intends on interpreting prophecy should know the difference between a SPECIFIC statement and a GENERAL statement. Many make the mistake of generalizing what they read to the ENTIRE EARTH, instead of just the local land to which the author intended his prophecy to go. Over-generalization can sensationalize the passage for ear-tickling sermons, books, and movies, but it won't be accurate nor will it accurately reflect the intent of the text! One absolutely MUST remember that these were children of Israel - often Jews - writing to other children of Israel about the LAND of Israel, "erets Yisra'eel!" Therefore, it's inappropriate to extend the scope to the entire earth, ... unless, of course, the text SPECIFICALLY STATES that it's about the entire earth - "all the lands of all peoples."

As a corollary to this, one must also understand that the Hebrew word sometimes translated as "earth," "erets," really means "land" - the grounds and fields that they planted and harvested or traveled, not all the lands, and never the globe! This includes the Greek counterpart for "erets," "gee" (spelled gamma-eta and pronounced "gay"). It, too, means "land." If it is translated as "earth" at all, it MAY be referring to the TOPSOIL of that land, the DIRT, the EARTH, in that sense! The Greek word "gee" is the root word for the name, "George," which means a "FARMER" - "a worker of the LAND!" 

The second error is putting inappropriate definitions with the contexts using the words to which those inappropriate definitions are applied.

For instance, the Greek word "ouranos" is often translated "heaven," but its PRIMARY MEANING is "the sky," the "atmosphere" of our planet.

Thus, the "war in ouranos" would make better sense to be referring to a battle taking place within our atmosphere, NOT in "God's abode," per se! To be exiled from "heaven," then, would mean to be GROUNDED - to be kicked out of the sky and having one's ability to fly removed, like cutting the primary flight feathers in a bird's wings, having the bird's wings "clipped!"

Another example is the Greek word "aggelos" that is frequently transliterated as "angel." Its primary meaning is "a messenger," and while that MAY refer to a supernatural "messenger," it can mean and has been used for a HUMAN "messenger," as well, as when used for John the Baptist and used in your quotation of Revelation 12:7 above!

Another example is the Greek words "Ho Satanas" which transliterates the title "haSaataan" in Hebrew, which means "the Enemy" or "the Adversary." However, this term MAY refer to the superhuman adversary of God, OR it may refer to ANY adversary! For instance, when Yeshua` said to Kefa ("Peter"), "Get thee behind me, Satan," He was merely saying that Kefa was opposing Him in God's plan for the justification of human beings; He was NOT calling him the superhuman adversary of God, whom many people think "Satan" is his name!

Regarding the rest of the minor things wrong with your post,

while Revelation 12 may be symbolic, it is inappropriate for you to "allegorize" (falsely called "spiritualize") the text and say that it refers to the "Church of the Lord."

The symbolism has already been revealed in other Scriptures. Yosef ("Joseph") had a dream that Yisra'eel ("Israel") interpreted:

Genesis 37:9-11 (KJV)

9 And he (Yosef) dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said,

"Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him,

"What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I (Ya`aqov or Jacob) and thy mother (Lee'aah or Leah) and thy brethren (the other eleven sons of Ya`aqov) indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?"

11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

So, through Ya`aqov, who was renamed Yisra'eel or Israel, Yosef's dream was interpreted:
the sun represented Ya`aqov/Israel himself;
the moon represented Lee'aah, and
the twelve stars were the twelve sons of Israel.
Together, then, these symbols represented the children of Israel as a nation!

You should NOT try to change the symbolism to the sun representing Yeshua` the Messiah, the moon representing the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit of the living God is only the moon?!), and the twelve apostles (sent-ones)! You have NO biblical authority to do so!

And, for the record, the symbolic prophecy was fulfilled in Genesis chapters 45 and 46.

Thus, the woman clothed in the sun with the moon under her feet and the twelve stars above her head represent the NATION OF ISRAEL

Now, let's look at Revelation 12:10 and see what it's REALLY saying from the Greek:

Apokalupsis Ieesou 12:10 (Greek New Testament)

10 Kai eekousa fooneen megaleen en too ouranoo legousan,

"Arti egeneto hee sooteeria kai hee dunamis kai hee basileia tou Theou heemoon kai hee exousia tou Christou autou, hoti ebleethee ho kateegoor toon adelfoon heemoon, ho kateegoroon autous enoopion tou Theou heemoon heemeras kai nuktos."

10 Kai = 10 And
eekousa = I-heard
fooneen = a-voice
megaleen = loud
en = in
too = the
ouranoo = sky
legousan, = saying,

"Arti = "Now
egeneto = has-come
hee = the
sooteeria = deliverance
kai = and
hee = the
dunamis = power
kai = and
hee = the
basileia = kingdom
tou = of-the
Theou = God
heemoon = of-us
kai = and
hee = the
exousia = authority
tou = of-the
Christou = Messiah
autou, = of-Him,
hoti = because
ebleethee = has-been-thrown-down
ho = the
kateegoor = prosecutor
toon = of-the
adelfoon = brothers
heemoon, = of-us,
ho = the
kateegoroon = prosecuting-one
autous = of-them
enoopion = in-the-presence
tou = of-the
Theou = God
heemoon = of-us
heemeras = day
kai = and
nuktos." = night."

10 And I-heard a-voice loud in the sky saying, 

"Now have-come the deliverance and the power and the kingdom of-the God of-us and the authority of-the Messiah of-Him, because has-been-thrown-down the prosecutor of-the brothers of-us, the prosecuting-one of-them in-the-presence of-the God of-us day and night."

Rearranging the words as we would speak them in English would give us...

10 And I heard a loud voice in the sky saying,

"Now, the deliverance, the power, our God's kingdom, and His Messiah's authority have come, because the prosecutor of our brothers [and sisters], the one accusing them day and night in our God's presence, has been thrown down!"

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On 12/1/2019 at 8:19 PM, iamlamad said:

For chronology, we have the city being trampled for 42 months in verse 2, showing is John is very close to the midpoint (probably 3 1/2 days before the midpoint) and then in verse three the two witnesses show up and begin their 1260 days,

It seems from the text of Revelation 11, that the temple had not yet been occupied by the psuedo messiah, claiming to be God.  Only the outer court seems to have anything to do with the gentiles.  And the text talks about the two witnesses being able to do their thing for 42 months / 1260 days before they are killed.  No one is able to touch them and many of the people on the earth hate these guys.  But at the end of that period, they are killed, the beast, which is a common reference to the pseudo messiah / man of sin / son of perdition is able to then kill them.  Since they had been untouchable up to that point, it seems it is that event that will allow the beast to finally lay claim to being God, break the 7 year covenant of Daniel 9:27, and desolate the temple. Thereby cause the majority on earth to wonder after the beast....

Revelation 13:4 (NKJV) So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"

I am more convinced that these two witnesses are witnessing for 42 months / 1260 days against the one who confirmed the covenant as per Daniel 9:27, the pseudo messiah / beast / man of sin / son of perdition.  They do similar things that Moshe brought against Pharaoh, and Moshe could not be touched by Pharaoh. And they cause rain being withheld is like Elijah did.... for 3.5 years...

James 5:17 (NKJV) Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.

 

Edited by OldCoot
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8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

It seems from the text of Revelation 11, that the temple had not yet been occupied by the psuedo messiah, claiming to be God.  Only the outer court seems to have anything to do with the gentiles.  And the text talks about the two witnesses being able to do their thing for 42 months / 1260 days before they are killed.  No one is able to touch them and many of the people on the earth hate these guys.  But at the end of that period, they are killed, the beast, which is a common reference to the pseudo messiah / man of sin / son of perdition is able to then kill them.  Since they had been untouchable up to that point, it seems it is that event that will allow the beast to finally lay claim to being God, break the 7 year covenant of Daniel 9:27, and desolate the temple. Thereby cause the majority on earth to wonder after the beast....

Revelation 13:4 (NKJV) So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"

I am more convinced that these two witnesses are witnessing for 42 months / 1260 days against the one who confirmed the covenant as per Daniel 9:27, the pseudo messiah / beast / man of sin / son of perdition.  They do similar things that Moshe brought against Pharaoh, and Moshe could not be touched by Pharaoh. And they cause rain being withheld is like Elijah did.... for 3.5 years...

James 5:17 (NKJV) Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.

 

I know, many people insist the two witnesses testify in the first half, and the other 4 instances of the 3.5 years is for the second half of the week. I disagree. First because of where in John's narrative He first mentions them: right at the midpoint. Next, because it just makes sense that if four of the mentions of the 3.5 years is for the last half of the week, so they would be the 5th mention. Next, during the first half of the week, God will have 144,000 witnesses: He will not need two more.  But the 144,000 are caught up to heaven around the midpoint of the week, so it will be during the second half of the week where God will want and need the two Witnesses.

Finally, because Jesus Christ, the Head of the church said to me that every time He (through John's writing) mentioned an event that started at the midpoint and went to the end of the week, he always included the 3.5 year period of time. It was not some kind of "impression" nor did I eat too much pizza: He spoke words to me and I heard them.

 

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