Al Baghdadi.

[wingnut-]

18 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

Where does it specify "Chaldean kingdom" with regards to this in Daniel 5?

 

Daniel 5:30 That very night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed. 31  And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old.

[Steve_S]

4 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

Daniel 5:30 That very night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed. 31  And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old.

Nobody disputes he was a Chaldean. He was necessarily Chaldean. I'm more asking for specifics that say what is actually being posited, not that refer to him as what he is. I do not dispute that the kingdom of Chaldea ended either, at least his line. The question has nothing to do with that at all. It has to do with the city of babylon. I'm at a loss how to draw a direct line from "the city of babylon will be destroyed" to "Belshazzar the chaldean king was killed." The very first rebellion at Babylon did not involve only chaldeans, it involved the entire world's population at the time. That is significant and cannot be understated for the purposes of this discussion.

[Steve_S]

4 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

The city is still there when Jesus returns to the earth.  The beast and the kings do not destroy it, they attack it and set it on fire and assault the people, Jesus is the one who purifies the land with His wrath.

Revelation 11 tells us that the city is split in two, and Zechariah tells us this.

 

Zechariah 14  Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. 5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

 

So the question is, half the city goes out into exile, is that half of the city or half of the people?  Because it says the rest (which would have to be the other half of the people)  shall not be cut off from the city.  At the very least, half of the city is still standing.

I'm entirely befuddled by this interpretation. Is the city destroyed by the forces arrayed against or or not? Do they take the city, or not?

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Steve_S said:

I'm still confused a bit by your interpretation then. Are you claiming that the passages in Isaiah and Jeremiah (that have not come to pass yet with regards to Babylon) are specifically in reference to this future "destruction of Jerusalem." This should be answered in simple terms.

 

Yes.  The entire land is made desolate and then God restores it, with a new landscape.

 

[Steve_S]

2 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Yes.  The entire land is made desolate and then God restores it, with a new landscape.

I'm going to quote the question that I asked you that prompted this answer just for clarity's sake.

Quote

I'm still confused a bit by your interpretation then. Are you claiming that the passages in Isaiah and Jeremiah (that have not come to pass yet with regards to Babylon) are specifically in reference to this future "destruction of Jerusalem." This should be answered in simple terms.

There are multiple passages regarding the destruction of babylon that seem to not have been fulfilled with regards to total destruction. A few of those chapters are Isaiah 13, Isaiah 47, Jeremiah 50, and Jeremiah 51 (there are certainly more and I have no problem with others being mentioned or pointed out to be sure). I'm going to post the opening sentence from each of these chapters. Expositors from all spectrums would argue that these are some of the seminal chapters dealing with Babylon.

Isa 13:1  The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

Isa 47:1  "Come down and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon; Sit on the ground without a throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans! For you shall no more be called Tender and delicate.

Jer 50:1  The word that the LORD spoke against Babylon and against the land of the Chaldeans by Jeremiah the prophet.

Jer 51:1  Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, Against those who dwell in Leb Kamai, A destroying wind.

It hope it is not difficult to see why someone earnestly searching the scriptures and just taking the words therein to have literal meanings (that are discernible outside of usually easily identifiable metaphorical contexts) may have trouble believing how on earth these chapters could actually, strangely, and without any contextual indication, be speaking of Jerusalem and not Babylon. As I said before, words just stop having meaning if we start exchanging "Jerusalem" for Babylon in all of these contexts. Not only do words stop having meaning, but interpretations become chaotic and things stop making sense.

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Steve_S said:

It doesn't remove them from from the equation. The context specifies Jerusalem. He is speaking to His people in Jerusalem. If you are going to extend the context to *everywhere* his people are, then that goes out past Jerusalem and Judah even, anywhere Jews are living would have to be in view.

 

It is important to take into account everything that happens throughout these last seven years.

 

Revelation 6:7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

 

Most likely this is where it begins, but anything that follows I am not claiming in any particular order.  Starting with the fourth seal, 25% of the earth is subject to this, that doesn't mean 25% of the earth's population is killed, just that they are subjected to the possibility from this horseman.  Bottom line, a lot of people are going to die.

 

Revelation 8:10 The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11 The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from the water, because it had been made bitter.

 

No idea how many, but a lot of people die here.

 

Revelation 9:13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

 

One third of mankind is killed by this trumpet, and in my view this is very near the end.  On top of all the deaths in this aspect you also have all the deaths resulting from the war on the saints, so suffice it to say by the time we get to the end the population of the earth is going to be greatly diminished.  So by the time we get to the 6th trumpet, remember it is one third of however many are left alive.

Besides all this death that has been occurring, we also have a lot of gathering going on at the end.  Everyone it would seem is being drawn to this area, whether for good or evil.  The unholy trio is gathering people to fight at Armageddon, and God is gathering people as well, some for resurrection, and He is also gathering the Jewish people.

 

Deuteronomy 30  “And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, 2 and return to the Lord your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. 4 If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. 5 And the Lord your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. 7 And the Lord your God will put all these curses on your foes and enemies who persecuted you.

 

In Revelation chapter 11 we are told that Jerusalem is overrun and trampled by the gentiles, scripture indicates that the majority of the remnant will flee at that time.  According to Revelation 12 they flee to the wilderness, which is confirmed by both Isaiah and Hosea.  When we come to the very end, the day of His return, there appear to be many Jews in the city of Jerusalem to me.  So, did those that fled earlier return at some point near the end, or did other Jews from around the world just come because they were drawn there?

If you're asking me to completely understand everything that God is doing at this time, I can't, and neither can anyone else.  Verse 7 from the Deuteronomy passage though clarifies that this gathering of the Jews does not just happen at the end, but prior to when He takes the cup from them, and turns it on their enemies.  I would imagine that His faithful remnant will find themselves back in the land before it is over.  Jerusalem becomes a magnet at the end, a cup of staggering for the wicked.

[Steve_S]

14 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

In Revelation chapter 11 we are told that Jerusalem is overrun and trampled by the gentiles, scripture indicates that the majority of the remnant will flee at that time.

Part of the issue I'm having is that there is massive jumping back and forth between passages and contentions being made before previous contentions are settled. I understand that this is warranted to a degree when discussing prophecy, but it is also certainly feasible to just keep it to a few verses of scripture at a time. I much prefer to inspect the minutiae of the scripture before moving on, simply because I believe God is *incredibly specific* with regard to His prophecies (and indeed all of His scriptures). If God is very specific, we should be very specific (this is the outlook I have on all scripture, not just prophecy).

If you will recall, this started with your contention that Isaiah 40 was somehow proof that this is a country-wide situation.  These are the verses you posted.

Isa 40:1  "Comfort, yes, comfort My people!" Says your God. 
Isa 40:2  "Speak comfort to Jerusalem, and cry out to her, That her warfare is ended, That her iniquity is pardoned; For she has received from the LORD's hand Double for all her sins." 
Isa 40:3  The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Prepare the way of the LORD; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God. 
Isa 40:4  Every valley shall be exalted And every mountain and hill brought low; The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough places smooth; 
Isa 40:5  The glory of the LORD shall be revealed, And all flesh shall see it together; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken." 

Firstly, one specific question, just so I understand where you're coming from on this. Is your claim was that this has to be speaking of more than just Jerusalem because of God saying "My people?"

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, Steve_S said:

This is how the actual chapter reads if you just read it without attempting to wedge it into a broad eschatological narrative. That is the main problem with spiritualizing vast swaths of scripture to fit a presupposition. Eventually you have to start making the text say things it just doesn't say and this is one of those cases.

 

If all information is not taken into account, then the right conclusion can never be arrived at.  I am also not spiritualizing vast swaths of scripture, the passage begins speaking of comfort for the people, then says speak tenderly to Jerusalem.  Of course the most important aspect that has been completely overlooked is that Jerusalem receives the double portion.

 

Isaiah 40:Comfort, comfort my people, says your God.
2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem,
    and cry to her
that her warfare is ended,
    that her iniquity is pardoned,
that she has received from the Lord's hand
    double for all her sins.

 

The reason both the people and the city are mentioned is because everywhere in prophecy it is sectioned off specifically as Judah and Jerusalem.  Ephraim is given different prophecies regarding this time, as are other peoples.  Judah and Jerusalem though go hand in hand together, this is consistency.  Nearly 200 times in scripture the two are said interchangeably.   The first 5 chapters of Isaiah are regarding judgement against Judah and Jerusalem.  In many of the occasions these two are said together in scripture it specifies Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

The reason the people are being comforted and it says speak tenderly and cry to her is because they believed earthly Jerusalem was sacred to the Lord, which it was at one point, but that city has been destroyed and rebuilt several times over now.  What exists there in the end times is flat out blasphemy and direct worship of satan from within what is supposed to be God's temple.  This is what God has in store for her, per Isaiah.

 

Isaiah 29  Ah, Ariel, Ariel,
    the city where David encamped!
Add year to year;
    let the feasts run their round.
2 Yet I will distress Ariel,
    and there shall be moaning and lamentation,
    and she shall be to me like an Ariel.
3 And I will encamp against you all around,
    and will besiege you with towers
    and I will raise siegeworks against you.
4 And you will be brought low; from the earth you shall speak,
    and from the dust your speech will be bowed down;
your voice shall come from the ground like the voice of a ghost,
    and from the dust your speech shall whisper.

[Steve_S]

4 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

If all information is not taken into account, then the right conclusion can never be arrived at.  I am also not spiritualizing vast swaths of scripture, the passage begins speaking of comfort for the people, then says speak tenderly to Jerusalem. 

Not in regards to this specific passage, but in regard to the actual debate on whether or not Babylon is a stand-in for Jerusalem throughout much of the old testament, broad swaths of scripture are being spiritualized. Applying multiple old testament prophecies that are specifically directed at Babylon into an eschatological narrative regarding Jerusalem is doing just that. It doesn't mean you are wrong, even. However, it means that if you are right, several chapters and hundreds of verses do not mean what they actually say, but mean something else entirely. This is basically what spiritualization of scriptures means. Saying babylon does not mean babylon in Jeremiah 50 is no different than saying that a single day in Genesis does not mean a single day. It's functionally the exact same thing.

I know you aren't a preterist, but this is a preterist position and a preterist argument regarding Jerusalem specifically. It's not only preterist I know, but I have rarely encountered it at all outside of the preterist camp. The thing that preterists tend to do is continue to interpret other passages nonliterally until they are reduced down to virtually no literalness at all.

18 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

The first 5 chapters of Isaiah are regarding judgement against Judah and Jerusalem.  In many of the occasions these two are said together in scripture it specifies Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Are you contending that only what constituted old testament boundaries of Judah is in view with regards to the punishment in Revelation 17-18 then, or all of Israel? You say:

20 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

In many of the occasions these two are said together in scripture it specifies Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

In many cases, not in this case though. Again, specifics matter. Judah not being mentioned is significant.

24 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

This is what God has in store for her, per Isaiah.

You highlighted verse four here, but I encourage you to read verse 3 carefully:

24 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

3 And I will encamp against you all around,
    and will besiege you with towers
    and I will raise siegeworks against you.

This was fulfilled in history by both the Assyrians under Sennacherib and the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar. What armies during the end of the tribulation will be besieging Jerusalem with siege towers and siegeworks? This is why it's important to look at the specifics of these prophecies. This sort of warfare has not been waged for hundreds of years and if you look at Revelation 18, there are no siegeworks:

Rev 18:8  Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

Again, specifics, important! Is this going to be a prolonged siege or is it coming to happen in one day?

Death, mourning, and famine, all in one day. Is it a siege or does it happen in a day?

Sieges takes weeks at the least generally, usually several months to years.

 

[wingnut-]

8 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I'm entirely befuddled by this interpretation. Is the city destroyed by the forces arrayed against or or not? Do they take the city, or not?

 

Yes they take the city, it tells us in verse 2 the city will be taken.  They do not completely destroy the city though, there is going to be a massive earthquake when the Lord sets down on the Mt. of Olives, this is where the people who flee go.  Whether the forces remain in the city or not remains to be seen.