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33 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Lines 1-4 speak of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Has nothing to do with the end times. Towers and siegeworks were ancient tactics.

Line 7 summarizes the deliverance of Jerusalem per Zech. 14.

 

So what you believe is the first four verses are about one time, and everything that follows is unrelated?

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On 11/17/2019 at 11:16 PM, Steve_S said:

I do not have a problem with viewing Zechariah 12 as a localized event. The prophet is fairly specific in regards to the situation at hand. I however, do think, that at this point in the prophecy, the Babylon mentioned in Revelation, whatever it is, is probably already gone.

As one moves into Revelation 19, it very much so seems that Babylon is long gone when Christ returns as the rider on the white horse. There are no chapter/verse divisions in Revelation as you know. John's letter would've went straight from 18 into 19 and shortly thereafter, to here:

Rev 19:2  For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her." 
Rev 19:3  Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!" 

Babylon seems, very much to be a smoking ruin at this point, judged by God.

 

I am having a hard time understanding your view of things here.  You indicate Babylon is long gone by the time the Lord sets down on the Mt. of Olives, so you believe He destroys Babylon before He returns to earth?

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26 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

I specifically said the Babylon of Revelation.

This is what is confusing me. I may be taking it incorrectly, but it seems that you are making an argument that old testament prophecies regarding Babylon apply to Jerusalem, as well as the prophecies in Revelation 17-18. Before we go forward and I spend a lot of time answering your other posts, my primary question is:

Are you asserting that the prophecies (that we have discussed thus far) in the old testament that pertain to Babylon are in fact in regard to Jerusalem at the time of the end? This is incredibly important to the conversation.

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21 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

I am having a hard time understanding your view of things here.  You indicate Babylon is long gone by the time the Lord sets down on the Mt. of Olives, so you believe He destroys Babylon before He returns to earth?

Absolutely it is gone (I don't know by how long, though). Why would God need to be physically present to destroy something? Who was responsible for the destruction of Sodom? Two angels carried out the destruction, but Who was judging it? I think Babylon is definitely destroyed towards the end, but it certainly does not seem to be the final act.

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22 hours ago, Steve_S said:

Are you asserting that the prophecies (that we have discussed thus far) in the old testament that pertain to Babylon are in fact in regard to Jerusalem at the time of the end?

 

I think when we break them down and look at them line by line it is clear they are about more than one nation.  I have no doubt that the Lord is going to judge the land of the Chaldeans just as He will judge the whole earth, but the passages themselves speak to something bigger than just the land of the Chaldeans.  In response to our other conversation here I am going to touch on some of what I mean.

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2 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

I think when we break them down and look at them line by line it is clear they are about more than one nation.  I have no doubt that the Lord is going to judge the land of the Chaldeans just as He will judge the whole earth, but the passages themselves speak to something bigger than just the land of the Chaldeans.  In response to our other conversation here I am going to touch on some of what I mean.

That's fair enough of course, however, I still want to narrow it down. I certainly expect that you will inspect it in a further post. However, the question, is do they apply specifically to Jerusalem. Other nations, etc., is fine, but I wish to get at the root. Are they about Jerusalem specifically?

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22 hours ago, Steve_S said:

Absolutely it is gone (I don't know by how long, though). Why would God need to be physically present to destroy something? Who was responsible for the destruction of Sodom? Two angels carried out the destruction, but Who was judging it? I think Babylon is definitely destroyed towards the end, but it certainly does not seem to be the final act.

 

I misread the original post of yours, for some reason I thought you said long gone but you did not say that, you said already gone, so I apologize for the confusion on my part.  As far as your questions above, I agree with what you are saying, God most definitely does not have to physically be there to destroy something.  However, the OT passages regarding Babylon point to Him using other means to do so, as in the armies from the north, the Medes.

What I need to figure out I guess is what you consider to be the final act, or what final act are we talking about.  Is your definition the end of the 70th week the final act, or does your definition of final act extend into the Millennial reign?

This is why I ask.

 

Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. 21 And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.

 

This being the final event written in Revelation as far as wrath is concerned, and being connected to when God remembers Babylon, narrows down the timing a bit.  This also creates serious issues in the narrative if it is speaking of Babylon literally, and the reason is because of how God judges them in the OT passages and that this is done in a single day.  If it is the last day, which the 7th bowl/vial suggests, then there are logistical problems, because all the nations are gathered against Jerusalem, not Babylon.

 

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

Now the armies of the whole world are assembled at Armageddon at the 6th bowl, Babylon falls at the 7th bowl, so there are no armies to march to a different place.  Armageddon is laid out in chapter 19, and none of those armies escape that battle.  Once these armies assemble at Armageddon, they attack Jerusalem.

 

Zechariah 14  Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. 5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

 

This must all take place in a single day according to the scriptures, so as I have been pointing out there is a contradiction.  Everyone, including the Lord, cannot be in Jerusalem and someone be in Babylon afterward.  Either the prophets are wrong about all the nations being gathered against Jerusalem, or the city in the OT passages cannot be literal Babylon.  Everything mentioned above in Zechariah 14 (except for the Lord on the Mt. of Olives) is prophesied about in those OT prophecies regarding Babylon.

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1 hour ago, Steve_S said:

That's fair enough of course, however, I still want to narrow it down. I certainly expect that you will inspect it in a further post. However, the question, is do they apply specifically to Jerusalem. Other nations, etc., is fine, but I wish to get at the root. Are they about Jerusalem specifically?

 

The location is about Jerusalem, yes, that is where everyone is gathered prior to the fall of Babylon.

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52 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

This being the final event written in Revelation as far as wrath is concerned, and being connected to when God remembers Babylon, narrows down the timing a bit.

Revelation 19 disagrees with this. The smoke of Babylon is rising before the final battle:

Rev 19:1  After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 
Rev 19:2  For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her." 
Rev 19:3  Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!" 

Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 
Rev 19:20  Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 

So that leaves two options.

Babylon (or whatever city it represents) is entirely destroyed before this and this is a commemoration of that fact:

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.

I admit that it doesn't totally read that way.

Option two, Babylon has already been destroyed by a military attack of some sort and receives a final supernatural judgment as Jesus returns:

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. 21 And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.

The final part of the verses you posted above cannot be relegated to only Babylon (or whatever city it represents, even if it's Jerusalem) because there are no islands there (or real mountains to my knowledge).

It seems that whatever the case, Babylon is a smoking Ruin as Jesus is still in heaven prior to His return. That is inescapable with a plain reading of Revelation 19.

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On 11/20/2019 at 2:44 PM, Steve_S said:

Revelation 19 disagrees with this. The smoke of Babylon is rising before the final battle

 

I don't believe it does, the battle of Armageddon does come after as I said earlier, but the battle of Armageddon is after the 70th week and the beginning of the Millennial reign where He is ruling with the iron scepter.

 

Revelation 19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

 

His reign begins at the 7th trumpet, these two passages are intertwined as far as timing goes.  What these later chapters in Revelation do is break down specific events and what we see at the beginning of chapter 19 is the information that gives us the timing in the overall picture.  The gathering of the elect at the 7th trumpet happens in the sky, or heaven in Greek, at that point He is very near to setting down on the Mt of Olives.

Revelation 19:6-8 depict the gathering in the great multitude, and also the resurrection and changing into our glorified bodies with the information about being clothed in fine linen.  This is exactly why the Babylon of Revelation must be Jerusalem, because that is where the nations have gathered and attacked the city.  It is this assault on Jerusalem that leads to the Jewish people calling out for Him, which is what He is waiting for.

 

 

On 11/20/2019 at 2:44 PM, Steve_S said:

Option two, Babylon has already been destroyed by a military attack of some sort and receives a final supernatural judgment as Jesus returns

 

There are two important aspects regarding the fall of Babylon as well that tell us the armies from the north are God's instrument, and also include the Lord as being directly involved at the fall.

 

Jeremiah 50:9 For behold, I am stirring up and bringing against Babylon a gathering of great nations, from the north country. And they shall array themselves against her. From there she shall be taken. Their arrows are like a skilled warrior who does not return empty-handed.

 

Jeremiah 50:14 Set yourselves in array against Babylon all around,
    all you who bend the bow;
shoot at her, spare no arrows,
    for she has sinned against the Lord.
15 Raise a shout against her all around;
    she has surrendered;
her bulwarks have fallen;
    her walls are thrown down.
For this is the vengeance of the Lord:
    take vengeance on her;
    do to her as she has done.

 

And from Revelation 18, the Lord's direct involvement at the announcement of the fall of Babylon.

 

Revelation 18  After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory. 2 And he called out with a mighty voice,

“Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!
    She has become a dwelling place for demons,
a haunt for every unclean spirit,
    a haunt for every unclean bird,
    a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.

 

Scripture tells us that the earth is made bright by the glory of Jesus at His return, and that is what the passage above from Revelation 18 displays, Jesus announces the fall of Babylon and it is at the hands of the armies from the north, His instruments for destruction.  We also know that He touches down on the Mt. of Olives and immediately proceeds to Jerusalem where He fights against these armies that are gathered.  It simply does not allow for Him to be in literal Babylon when everyone, including Him, is in the vicinity of Jerusalem.

 

On 11/20/2019 at 2:44 PM, Steve_S said:

The final part of the verses you posted above cannot be relegated to only Babylon (or whatever city it represents, even if it's Jerusalem) because there are no islands there (or real mountains to my knowledge).

 

I agree with you, and I suspect that is why the expositors say that it is happening all over the world as opposed to just a specific region.

 

On 11/20/2019 at 2:44 PM, Steve_S said:

It seems that whatever the case, Babylon is a smoking Ruin as Jesus is still in heaven prior to His return. That is inescapable with a plain reading of Revelation 19.

 

I think in regards to this it depends on where in heaven you are referring to.  At this point Jesus is very near to the earth, still in the clouds (heaven), but on His way to Jerusalem.

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