The Four Beasts

[Diaste]

On 10/31/2019 at 11:09 AM, JoeCanada said:

Gabriel then proceeds to tell Daniel “three” times in clear language – not in images or symbols – that the vision of the Ram and the Goat is about the end times, the final indignation, and the appointed time of the end. Could he be any clearer?

I agree. However I don't see the the ram and the goat at the end of days. What it looks like is the story is leading to the end and the little horn. That being said Egypt, Asia Minor(Turkey), Greece and the Seleucid empire all still exist today. Not in their former glory, but they are there; "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." So they ruled with great power, that was taken away but they still exist. In the process of fulfillment...

On 10/31/2019 at 11:09 AM, JoeCanada said:

 

The Goat has a single prominent horn. It is a single kingdom with a single leader.  It becomes exceedingly great.  What would happen today if a Middle Eastern power overcomes say, Iran, and became exceedingly great? I think a fair assumption is that the UN or maybe the world’s super powers would break it up. And that’s what we are told will happen in scripture. The Goat kingdom will be divided up into four smaller, weaker kingdoms; into four horns.

From history that fits Alexander's empire perfectly. The rest is speculation and misses the idea the Goat defeated the Medes and Persians. They are not aligned and certainly do not, and likely will not, rule together in this day and age. There was a time when they did, then came Alexander.

On 10/31/2019 at 11:09 AM, JoeCanada said:

It is at this point that the four Beasts enter.  The four Beasts are the four horns of the broken up Goat empire:

The four beasts correspond much better with the kingdoms of the statute in Dan 2.

On 10/31/2019 at 11:09 AM, JoeCanada said:

First…..each of the four groups relate to a kingdom, a horn and a Beast

Second….the four horns come up toward the four winds of heaven, just as the four Beasts come out of the sea after it is stirred up by these same winds

Third…..this stirring up of the sea is the war between the Ram and the Goat, which is then followed by the breakup of the Goat kingdom

Fourth….arising from one of the horns comes the Little Horn. In Dan 7, the little horn comes up from among the 10 horns. This coming up of the Little Horn occurs at the same place in the account-after the formation of the four kingdoms (horns or Beasts)

Fifth…..If the four horns of the Goat are four of the 10 horns that we read about in Dan 7, then we have an additional similarity. In fact, all 10 horns might be created at this exact same time as the four horns of the Goat.

Sixth…… We see that the exact same process occurs in Dan 8 as in Dan 7. In Dan 7, the Little Horn plucks out three of the original horns by the roots. In Dan 8, we read that the Little Horn becomes exceedingly great towards three directions of the compass – to the south, east and west. This becoming great in three directions is the same process as plucking out three horns

 These are six  reasons why the four Beasts of Dan 7 are the four horns of Dan 8.

This looks like a mixing of disparate imagery. Not sure it's justifiable to assume a horn is a horn is a horn. Nor to think that the four beasts of Dan 7 are the four horns of Dan 8. Where is the causal link or direct evidence proving the four beasts are the four horns? I see four beasts in Dan 7 and they are never mentioned as related to the four horns and the four horns are not said to be representative of the four beasts. In fact both visions are interpreted and the four beasts are not linked with direct scriptural evidence to the four horns. 

I think there is lot of speculation in the above.

 

 

[iamlamad]

On 10/31/2019 at 12:09 PM, JoeCanada said:

The Four Beasts

"The fourth Beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms"……Dan 7:23

"These great Beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth"…..Dan 7:17

From these verses, we see that the four Beasts are both four kingdoms and four kings that arise on the earth.

"Daniel said I was looking in my vision at night and behold the four winds were stirring up the Great Sea"…..Dan 7:2

"The waters which you saw where the harlot sits are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues"…..Rev 17:10

So, the sea or waters are the nations, specifically the Gentile nations. In the Old Testament, the Great Sea was the Eastern Mediterranean.

The four winds are four angels or spirits……Of the angels He says, “He makes His angels winds”….Heb 1:7

In combination then, we see that the four spirit beings of God, the four winds of heaven, are stirring up the Gentile nations, specifically those along the eastern Mediterranean Sea. The four Beasts come out of that region.

If we look back at the verse in Dan 7:17, we see that the four Beasts will arise from the earth. When Daniel received this vision in the first year of King Belshazzar, Nebuchadnezzar had been dead ten years. So this verse cannot be talking about him or ancient Babylon. They had already arisen at this point.

The Beasts and the statue in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, all the kingdoms were destroyed at the same time, when the stone smashed into the statue, so they cannot be the same.

"Then the iron the clay the bronze the silver and the gold all together were broken in pieces and became like chaff of the summer threshing floors"….Dan 2:35

Yet, in Dan 7, the first three Beasts were allowed to live on for some time after the destruction of the fourth Beast:

"As I looked, the Beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. As for the rest of the Beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time"….Dan 7:11-12

This is a big difference. The four kingdoms cannot be both destroyed at the same time and not destroyed at the same time. So the statue and the Beasts are not the same.

Also, the statue’s belly and thighs of bronze, the Greek Empire, was never divided into four kingdoms. The Diadochi  Wars  divided up the kingdom into several dozen, then five which lasted 50 years, then 3 which remained right up till Rome (200 years). It was never four kingdoms for any significant period of time. And yet, the third beast in Dan 7 has four heads and four wings. This does not compare with the historic Greece that was never divided into four nations.

The four beasts then, are future end times manifestations.

Who are the first three beasts?

The kingdoms of the statue are presented in the exact same order as the four beasts; the one like Babylon first, the one like Persia second, and the one like Greece third.

The word “like” is extremely important and is a key to our understanding. If Babylon is the Lion with eagle’s wings, then the first Beast is like it, but not exactly the same. If the Bear is Persia, then the second beast is like it, but not exactly the same. And so on.

The first Beast is like Babylon; the second Beast is like Persia; and the third Beast is like Greece. They may exist on the same piece of land. And/or, they may exhibit other qualities  similar to their ancient counterparts, meaning they will be like their former empires based on overwhelming character traits referenced in Dan 7.

The first Beast that is like-a-Lion was made to stand up on its feet and was given the mind of a man. In Dan 4, Nebuchadnezzar was cast out to become a Beast for his sin of pride. He spent seven years as a Beast. Ring any bells? We should recognize the similarity between this 7-year period and Daniels 70^th week. Will this Beast like-a-Lion become a beast for that same period, the 70^th week of Daniel, only to be raised up on its feet and given a man’s civilized mind at the end?

The same thing for the second Beast like-a-Bear; and the third Beast like-a-leopard.

After the first three Beasts make their appearance, we are introduced to the fourth, the terrifying Beast, the one with ten horns:

"After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth Beast, dreadful and terrifying, and extremely strong, and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the Beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns"……Dan 7:7

Look at this verse from Hosea. We see judgment like-a-Lion, like-a-Bear, and like-a-Leopard falling on Israel:

"When they (Israel) had grazed, they became full, they were filled, and their heart was lifted up; therefore, they forgot me. So, I am to them like a Lion; like a Leopard I will lurk beside the way. I will fall upon them like a Bear robbed of her cubs"……Hosea 13:6-8

Let’s now look at Dan 8.

The vision begins with two new and very different animals, a Ram and a Goat.  If God’s purpose of this vision in Dan 8 is to clarify the four Beasts and the rest of Dan 7, adding two more symbols, two different animals, certainly doesn’t make thing clearer.

For things to make sense, these two new animals, the Ram and the Goat, must be different from the four Beasts of Dan 7. They are the precursors of the four Beasts.

Gabriel is commanded by, probably Jesus, someone in the appearance of a man, to make Daniel understand the vision:

"Gabriel, make this man understand the vision"….Dan 8:17

Gabriel then proceeds to tell Daniel “three” times in clear language – not in images or symbols – that the vision of the Ram and the Goat is about the end times, the final indignation, and the appointed time of the end. Could he be any clearer?

Gabriel then proceeded to tell Daniel precisely where the four Beasts would come from. The Ram represents the kings of Media and Persia, whose territory existed essentially where Iran is located today. And the Goat is Yavan, which is the area occupied by Greece and western Turkey today. Gabriel wanted Daniel (and us) to understand that this is a Middle Eastern prophecy.

The Little Horn

The Goat has a single prominent horn. It is a single kingdom with a single leader.  It becomes exceedingly great.  What would happen today if a Middle Eastern power overcomes say, Iran, and became exceedingly great? I think a fair assumption is that the UN or maybe the world’s super powers would break it up. And that’s what we are told will happen in scripture. The Goat kingdom will be divided up into four smaller, weaker kingdoms; into four horns.

It is at this point that the four Beasts enter.  The four Beasts are the four horns of the broken up Goat empire:

First…..each of the four groups relate to a kingdom, a horn and a Beast

Second….the four horns come up toward the four winds of heaven, just as the four Beasts come out of the sea after it is stirred up by these same winds

Third…..this stirring up of the sea is the war between the Ram and the Goat, which is then followed by the breakup of the Goat kingdom

Fourth….arising from one of the horns comes the Little Horn. In Dan 7, the little horn comes up from among the 10 horns. This coming up of the Little Horn occurs at the same place in the account-after the formation of the four kingdoms (horns or Beasts)

Fifth…..If the four horns of the Goat are four of the 10 horns that we read about in Dan 7, then we have an additional similarity. In fact, all 10 horns might be created at this exact same time as the four horns of the Goat.

Sixth…… We see that the exact same process occurs in Dan 8 as in Dan 7. In Dan 7, the Little Horn plucks out three of the original horns by the roots. In Dan 8, we read that the Little Horn becomes exceedingly great towards three directions of the compass – to the south, east and west. This becoming great in three directions is the same process as plucking out three horns

 These are six  reasons why the four Beasts of Dan 7 are the four horns of Dan 8.

So sorry to say, but you missed it here.  The ENTIRE CHAPTER of Daniel 8 is about THEN, not now or future. It was about Persia the ram and Greece, the goat.  And 4 was the right number: 4 Generals took over at Alex's death:  Lysimachus, Cassander, Ptolomy 1, Seleucus.

Then, in the later days of THEIR kingdoms, an evil man would arise: just read the Amplified bible: it was Antiochus.  This chapter ends with Antiochus. "The end" in chapter 8 is specificed as the end of THEIR kingdoms: it is talking about the end of the Grecian kingdom, NOT OUR FUTURE. 

¹⁷ So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.  WHAT END? We cannot pull verses out of their context to form doctrine!

 

 

¹⁹ And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.  ²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.  What "indignation? OF COURSE in context it must be the indignation of the ram of Media and Persia vs the goat of Greece: we CANNOT pull a phrase out of any of these verses and hint that it refers to our future. That would be terrible exegesis. 

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.   This is the clincher: Daniel and the angel are still talking about Greece and Persia but here Persia had been conquered, so it is Greece - but in the later end of Greece, just before Rome conquered all.  Greece did continue on past Antiochus' life, but it was very week and faded away. the angel did not say the END of their kingdom, just the latter time.

Summary: there is NOTHING in this chapter to be used for end time doctrine.

[JoeCanada]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So sorry to say, but you missed it here.  The ENTIRE CHAPTER of Daniel 8 is about THEN, not now or future. It was about Persia the ram and Greece, the goat.  And 4 was the right number: 4 Generals took over at Alex's death:  Lysimachus, Cassander, Ptolomy 1, Seleucus.

Then, in the later days of THEIR kingdoms, an evil man would arise: just read the Amplified bible: it was Antiochus.  This chapter ends with Antiochus. "The end" in chapter 8 is specificed as the end of THEIR kingdoms: it is talking about the end of the Grecian kingdom, NOT OUR FUTURE. 

¹⁷ So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.  WHAT END? We cannot pull verses out of their context to form doctrine!

 

 

¹⁹ And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.  ²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.  What "indignation? OF COURSE in context it must be the indignation of the ram of Media and Persia vs the goat of Greece: we CANNOT pull a phrase out of any of these verses and hint that it refers to our future. That would be terrible exegesis. 

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.   This is the clincher: Daniel and the angel are still talking about Greece and Persia but here Persia had been conquered, so it is Greece - but in the later end of Greece, just before Rome conquered all.  Greece did continue on past Antiochus' life, but it was very week and faded away. the angel did not say the END of their kingdom, just the latter time.

Summary: there is NOTHING in this chapter to be used for end time doctrine.

The majority of commentaries,theologians, preachers etc,  hold to the view that all of Daniel 8 was fulfilled in the past, as you do.

There is either a near - far prophecy in this chapter, or it's a prophecy of the future reign of the Little Horn/Antichrist.

"" It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down"

"It even magnified himself to be equal with the Commander of the host"

"A king will arise, insolent and skilled in intrigue"

" He will cause deceit to succeed "

etc....etc.....

 

One has to ask himself ...."Is the book of Daniel still sealed?".............

"But as for you Daniel, conceal these words and seal the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase" Rev 12:4

I suppose one could argue that when God said "seal the book until the end of time".......that God really meant..... "until the end of Daniels time",

just like the Angel Gabriel  told Daniel...." the vision pertains to the time of the end"...... and..... " pertains to the appointed time of the end"....and....

" final period of the indignation".......Dan 8:17, 19, also Dan 10:14, 11:35

"Go your way Daniel, for THESE WORDS are concealed and sealed up until the end time"....Rev 12:9

What are THESE WORDS that God was referring to?

When did the book of Daniel become "unsealed"?

 

"WHAT END? We cannot pull verses out of their context to form doctrine!".........Uh huh!......you're funny.

[JoeCanada]

On 11/3/2019 at 1:42 AM, Sister said:

  

Daniel 2:42   And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Daniel 2:43   And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

  Daniel 2:44   And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

  Daniel 2:45   Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

 

Joe Canada.

The iron, brass, clay, silver and the gold are the kingdoms on the image in Dan 2.  The whole image symbolises great ruling kingdoms one after the other.    After Babylon, those other kingdoms have come and gone.  They don't hold any power at the end, because it's the 10 toes ruling when Christ returns.  The whole image is the system of the jungle where the strong eat the weak. Each kingdom is more terrible than the last. Christ will put a stop to this - for his kingdom is an eternal kingdom and will replace that old system.  Never again will man rule.  Man has shown that absolute power corrupts.  We need someone who is righteous to rule, that can never be corrupted.
 

Hi sister,

I don't disagree with the scriptures you posted. 

Daniel 2:44   And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom,......

"In the days of these kings"........ they would have to be all together for God to destroy them all at once, and to set up His kingdom. I don't see them as having "been". If they have come and gone, then this verse doesn't make much sense. God destroys them "all together" with the "stone that was cut out of the mountain without hands" , which we know is when the Lord returns and sets up His Kingdom.

From where does the Little Horn arise?

What 3 kingdoms does he pluck out?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The majority of commentaries,theologians, preachers etc,  hold to the view that all of Daniel 8 was fulfilled in the past, as you do.

There is either a near - far prophecy in this chapter, or it's a prophecy of the future reign of the Little Horn/Antichrist.

"" It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down"

"It even magnified himself to be equal with the Commander of the host"

"A king will arise, insolent and skilled in intrigue"

" He will cause deceit to succeed "

etc....etc.....

 

One has to ask himself ...."Is the book of Daniel still sealed?".............

"But as for you Daniel, conceal these words and seal the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase" Rev 12:4

I suppose one could argue that when God said "seal the book until the end of time".......that God really meant..... "until the end of Daniels time",

just like the Angel Gabriel  told Daniel...." the vision pertains to the time of the end"...... and..... " pertains to the appointed time of the end"....and....

" final period of the indignation".......Dan 8:17, 19, also Dan 10:14, 11:35

"Go your way Daniel, for THESE WORDS are concealed and sealed up until the end time"....Rev 12:9

What are THESE WORDS that God was referring to?

When did the book of Daniel become "unsealed"?

 

"WHAT END? We cannot pull verses out of their context to form doctrine!".........Uh huh!......you're funny.

Dan. 8:17 

¹⁷ So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

¹⁸ Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

¹⁹ And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

As I said, IN CONTEXT we must read verse 20 with verse 17. The angel is telling us WHAT END he is talking about. It was the terrible things Antiochus was doing. Let's back up and get more context:

¹¹ Yea, he [Antiochus] magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. [The devil was winning here!]

¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

¹⁴ And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel had seen in the vision that the daily sacrificed had ceased: and Antiochus was prospering in what he was doing.  Someone asked someone else HOW LONG will the daily sacrifices be stopped? He was told, 2300 days until the temple would be cleansed so the daily sacrifices could begin again.

So, IN CONTEXT, what "end" or what "time of the end" is the angel talking about? He TELLS US: the end of the indignation caused by Antiochus Epiphanes.  It is about MEDIA, PERSIA and then GREECE on down towards the end of Greece.

Note: chapter 10 is a different story altogether.

Is Daniel still sealed? Just ask yourself: are we near the end?

All the verses you quoted fit Antiochus very well.  He was a TYPE of the Antichrist.  Of course the Antichrist Beast, when he comes, will do many of the same things.

You see, there is a very good reason the majority of commentaries,theologians, preachers etc,  hold to this view. It is the scriptural view.

Edited November 6, 2019 by iamlamad

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Dan. 8:17 

¹⁷ So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

¹⁸ Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

¹⁹ And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

As I said, IN CONTEXT we must read verse 20 with verse 17. The angel is not telling us WHAT END he is talking about. It was the terrible things Antiochus was doing. Let's back up and get more context:

¹¹ Yea, he [Antiochus] magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. [The devil was winning here!]

¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

¹⁴ And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel had seen in the vision that the daily sacrificed had ceased: and Antiochus was prospering in what he was doing.  Someone asked someone else HOW LONG will the daily sacrifices be stopped? He was told, 2300 days until the temple would be cleansed so the daily sacrifices could begin again.

So, IN CONTEXT,

It is about MEDIA, PERSIA and then GREECE on down towards the end of Greece.

Note: chapter 10 is a different story altogether.

Is Daniel still sealed? Just ask yourself: are we near the end?

All the verses you quoted fit Antiochus very well.  He was a TYPE of the Antichrist.  Of course the Antichrist Beast, when he comes, will do many of the same things.

You see, there is a very good reason the majority of commentaries,theologians, preachers etc,  hold to this view. It is the scriptural view.

 The angel is not telling us WHAT END he is talking about.............

what "end" or what "time of the end" is the angel talking about? He TELLS US: the end of the indignation caused by Antiochus Epiphanes. 

The Angel isn't telling us....the Angel tells us............ which one is it?

So, now you are just assuming that the Angel is talking about Antiochus Epiphanes.

You're putting words in to fit your view.

[iamlamad]

22 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

 The angel is not telling us WHAT END he is talking about.............

what "end" or what "time of the end" is the angel talking about? He TELLS US: the end of the indignation caused by Antiochus Epiphanes. 

The Angel isn't telling us....the Angel tells us............ which one is it?

So, now you are just assuming that the Angel is talking about Antiochus Epiphanes.

You're putting words in to fit your view.

Hey! Thanks for pointing out my mistake in typing: of course the angel IS TELLING Daniel (and us) what end he was talking about.

No, sorry, not assuming anything: I am just following the context.

But then, MANY PEOPLE - when they see "the end"  - assume it is talking about OUR future. In this case, lets look again:

" there stood before the river a ram which had two horns "

" behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. "

The angel identifies these:

²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

²¹ And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

²² Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 

²⁶ And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true:

 

All we have to do today is BELIEVE what Daniel wrote.

Now in the amplified:

³ And I lifted up my eyes and saw, and behold, there stood before the river a [single] ram which had two horns [representing two kings of Medo-Persia: Darius the Mede, then Cyrus]; and the two horns were high, but one [Persia] was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last.

⁵ As I was considering, behold, a he-goat [the king of Greece] came from the west across the face of the whole earth without touching the ground, and the goat had a conspicuous and remarkable horn between his eyes [symbolizing Alexander the Great].

⁸ And the he-goat [Alexander the Great] magnified himself exceedingly, and when he was [young and] strong, the ^[a]great horn [he] was [suddenly] broken; and instead of [him] there came up four notable horns [to whom the kingdom was divided, one] toward [each of] the four winds of the heavens.

⁹ Out of littleness and small beginnings one of them came forth [Antiochus Epiphanes], a ^[b]horn whose [impious presumption and pride] grew exceedingly great toward the south and toward the east and toward the ornament [the precious, blessed land of Israel].

¹⁰ And [in my vision this horn] grew great, even against the host of heaven [God’s true people, the saints], and some of the host and of the stars [priests] it cast down to the ground and trampled on them,

¹¹ Yes, [this horn] magnified itself, even [matching itself] against the Prince of the host [of heaven]; and from Him the continual [burnt offering] was taken away and the place of [God’s] sanctuary was cast down and profaned.

As you can see, I am not assuming anything. I am only following the context.

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I don't disagree with the scriptures you posted. 

Daniel 2:44   And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom,......

"In the days of these kings"........ they would have to be all together for God to destroy them all at once, and to set up His kingdom. I don't see them as having "been". If they have come and gone, then this verse doesn't make much sense. God destroys them "all together" with the "stone that was cut out of the mountain without hands" , which we know is when the Lord returns and sets up His Kingdom.

From where does the Little Horn arise?

What 3 kingdoms does he pluck out?

Something to think about:

• But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.  Daniel 10:13

Who were the kings of Persia?

They will also be participating in the time of the end and will be destroyed by the return of Jesus.

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Something to think about:

• But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.  Daniel 10:13

Who were the kings of Persia?

They will also be participating in the time of the end and will be destroyed by the return of Jesus.

Verse 13 was about Alexander the Great defeating Persia. The prince of Persia is Apollyon, the Demon who is now in the bottomless pit, he is the Beast of Rev. 17 with NO CROWNS, that WAS.........IS NOT.........YET IS.

[Sister]

12 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi sister,

I don't disagree with the scriptures you posted. 

Daniel 2:44   And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom,......

"In the days of these kings"........ they would have to be all together for God to destroy them all at once, and to set up His kingdom. I don't see them as having "been". If they have come and gone, then this verse doesn't make much sense. God destroys them "all together" with the "stone that was cut out of the mountain without hands" , which we know is when the Lord returns and sets up His Kingdom.

JoeCanada

The vision given to Daniel was a prophecy.  After the kingdom of Babylon, these other kingdoms would arise.  This was future for them, but for us now it is history.  We are looking back at the fact that God's words were true, and it did pan out exactly like he said it would.  Our history also attests to this.  The whole image is the structure of kingdoms given power to rule, then having that power taken away for another kingdom to take over.  After the last kingdom, which is now, power will not be taken off them for another wicked kingdom to arise, because that pattern will cease.  All those kingdoms are given over to Christ and his saints to reign over. 

Of course all those other kingdoms still exist, but they havn't got the same power they once had.  They were brought low.

 

 

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From where does the Little Horn arise?

Out of the last kingdom, the kingdom with the ten kings.  The one that is ruling today in the shadows.  The same one that makes all our laws and is preparing everything for the FP's emergence so his job can be easier.  Ie. technology.

 

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What 3 kingdoms does he pluck out?

I did a whole post on this.  As he is coming up (the FP/little horn),  uproots three powerful kings of three powerful nations who will only get in his way.  I don't know who they are until it happens, but guessing, the USA is one of them, maybe Russia, and maybe China?  The united kingdom could also be one, I don't know until it happens.  Whoever has world power and a powerful military is a threat, so he is smart, he gets them out of the way first so he can do his job without obstruction.  He doesn't uproot his own kings, because it starts with 10 horns and finishes with ten horns which mean's none of his own horns are taken out of the way.  They are tight right till the end.