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17 minutes ago, Who me said:

I have no problem with forgiving others, what you have not identified is when do we have to forgive others.

Please remember the whole bible teaches that before there is forgiveness there has to be repentance.

When we sin, we do have to seek forgiveness through our repentance, but if someone sins against us, what then?  Jesus tells us in Matthew 18:21-22

Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”  Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."

We cannot force anyone to repent for that is between them and God.  We can, however, show them Gods love by forgiving them.

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23 minutes ago, OneLight said:

When we sin, we do have to seek forgiveness through our repentance, but if someone sins against us, what then?  Jesus tells us in Matthew 18:21-22

Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”  Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."

We cannot force anyone to repent for that is between them and God.  We can, however, show them Gods love by forgiving them.

Why do you ignore what the OT taught the Jews?

Have you never read that when they were aware of sin or making confession for sin. They were to take there best animal to the alter, lay there hand upon it while its throat was cut.

Now to do that they had to recognise that they had sinned. That they were prepared to admit that and put it right.

One cannot stand watching your best lamb die while smugly contemplaiting that you have sinned. An animal has died to put you right with God, one can only be sorry, hopefuly for sin, but also for the animal that died.

 

That goes right through the OT.

Then bring God into the picture. through out the OT he threatens judgement on Israel if they break the contract they have with him. There are curses that will come into effect and only removed if/when Israel turns from there wicked ways( repent) and prays.

That is the picture in the NT.

A passage few people bother to read is Luke 17.

It has the shocking words.

" if your brother repents you must forgive him." or words to that effect.

 

 

Edited by Who me

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23 minutes ago, Who me said:

Why do you ignore what the OT taught the Jews?

Have you never read that when they were aware of sin or making confession for sin. They were to take there best animal to the alter, lay there hand upon it while its throat was cut.

Now to do that they had to recognise that they had sinned. That they were prepared to admit that and put it right.

One cannot stand watching your best lamb die while smugly contemplaiting that you have sinned. An animal has died to put you right with God, one can only be sorry, hopefuly for sin, but also for the animal that died.

 

That goes right through the OT.

Then bring God into the picture. through out the OT he threatens judgement on Israel if they break the contract they have with him. There are curses that will come into effect and only removed if/when Israel turns from there wicked ways( repent) and prays.

That is the picture in the NT.

A passage few people bother to read is Luke 17.

It has the shocking words.

" if your brother repents you must forgive him." or words to that effect.

There is only One Sacrifice that is complete and finished, and it is not your best animal, but the Lamb of God!  Why return to the OT when you have the very words of Christ to guide you? 

As for Luke 17:3, let's read it.

Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Since scripture does not contradict itself, how do you see the above verse harmonizing with Matthew 18:21-22?  I am sure that Jesus did not mean for you to wait until someone repents to forgive them.

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13 minutes ago, OneLight said:

There is only One Sacrifice that is complete and finished, and it is not your best animal, but the Lamb of God!  Why return to the OT when you have the very words of Christ to guide you?

As for Luke 17:3, let's read it.

Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Since scripture does not contradict itself, how do you see the above verse harmonizing with Matthew 18:21-22?  I am sure that Jesus did not mean for you to wait until someone repents to forgive them.

You are the one who is contradicting scripture. It clearly says, 'if he repents, forgive him.'

Something you totaly ignore.

Just as you ignore the comand to be like God. God only forgives when there is repentance.

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who me said: No one here has presented a theology of forgiveness that accounts for how God forgives right through the bible and how we are to forgive, accept myself.

I pray this will help everyone to see, we as Christians must forgive anyone who sins against us, whether they ask or not. I know this is long, but please read it.

Matthew Henry commentary

Forgive us our trespasses" is the fifth of the seven petitions in the Lord's prayer (the first three address God, the second four are prayers related to our needs and concerns). The Greek word for “forgive” in the New Testament is the word “aphes”, which also means to dismiss or free. So God’s forgiveness is not just about being pardoned from doing something wrong, but also about being released and freed from it. It is a truly life changing experience. Notice that Jesus connects the notions of us seeking God’s forgiveness and forgiving others. They are inextricably linked. If we have experienced God’s pardon and acquittal, then we will surely forgive those who have wronged us. Christ underlines the importance of this immediately after the prayer. “For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” (recorded in Matthew 6:14-15) He also develops this further in the parable of the unmerciful servant, where we are taught to keep on forgiving those who have wronged us (Matthew 18:21-35).

Albert Barnes on "Forgive Us Our Trespasses" Verse 12. And forgive us our debts, etc. The word debts is here used figuratively. It does not mean literally that we are debtors to God, but that our sins have a resemblance to debts. Debtors are those who are bound to others for some claim in commercial transactions; for something which we have had, and for which we are bound to pay according to contract. Literally, there can be no such transaction between God and us. It must be used figuratively. We have not met the claims of law; we have violated its obligations; we are exposed to its penalty; we are guilty; and God only can forgive, in the same way, as none but a creditor can forgive a debtor. Debts here, therefore, mean sins, or offences against God-- offences which none but God can forgive. The measure by which we may expect forgiveness is that which we use in reference to others. See Ps 18:25,26, Mt 18:28-35, Mk 11:25, Lk 11:4. This is the invariable rule by which God dispenses pardon. He that comes before him unwilling to forgive, harbouring dark and revengeful thoughts, how can he expect that God will show him that mercy which he is unwilling to show to others? It is not, however, required that we should forgive debts in a pecuniary sense. To them we have a right, though they should not be pushed with an overbearing and oppressive spirit; not so as to sacrifice the feelings of mercy, in order to secure the claims of right. No man has a right to oppress; and when a debt cannot be paid, or when it would greatly distress a wife and children, a widow and an orphan, or when calamity has put it out of the power of an honest man to pay the debt, the spirit of Christianity requires that it should be forgiven. To such cases this petition in the Lord's prayer doubtless extends. But it was probably intended to refer principally to injuries of character or person, which we have received from others. If we cannot from the heart forgive them, we have the assurance that God will never forgive us.

What is Forgiveness?

“Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.” The word for debt here is synonymous with the word sin. In Jewish thought, to sin against someone meant you now had a moral debt toward them. In forgiving others, we release them from the debt they owe us.

Practically, when we forgive a wrong, we decide to not make the offender suffer for it any longer. This is NOT the same as saying what they did was acceptable. It is NOT saying everyone should continue as though nothing happened. It does NOT even mean the person should not have to suffer the natural consequences of their actions.

We also cannot wait for the offender to acknowledge their sin. While acknowledgement might be healing, it is not necessary for forgiveness.

How Can I Forgive?

Forgiveness is a decision. It is a decision based on knowing that our needs, even emotional needs, are met by our Father alone. He is the One who gives us value. He restores our soul. He is the One whose love never fails.

While pressing into this realization, we also must recognize our true condition. As we come before our heavenly Father, we come in humility. We ask for mercy for our own sinfulness.

A major difficulty in forgiving others is that we elevate ourselves above them. We minimize our own offenses. Even before God. When we ask for God’s forgiveness, we often really mean, “Could you just overlook what I have done?”

Dallas Willard (The Divine Conspiracy, pg. 262) suggests we even use the word “pity” instead of forgive or have mercy. The word pity has a way of undercutting our pride. When we realize that God has had pity on us, despite our sinfulness, we are finally in a place to have pity on others.

What If I Don’t Forgive?

The second clause in the sentence does not mean that we must earn God’s forgiveness with our own. Our forgiveness of others demonstrates our felt need of forgiveness. The person who does not forgive a brother’s offenses does not appreciate how much he himself needs forgiveness.

If your parents refuse to forgive you a horrific offense, are you still their child? Legally, yes. However, they may disown you relationally.

In the same way, if you have given your life to Christ, you are God’s child. His blood has covered your sin, so that you now can claim his righteousness as your own.

Yet, when we avoid obtaining forgiveness for our daily sins, we hinder our intimacy with him. Like Adam, instead of walking with God, we are hiding behind a bush.

Focusing on this segment of the prayer does two things:

  1. It gives us a keener awareness of God’s mercy/pity for us.
  2. It makes us aware of the grace we need from God to bring his kingdom into this world by humbling ourselves and granting mercy/pity to others.

 

And forgive us our debts
Nothing is more frequent in the Jewish writings than to call sins (ybwx) , "debts"; and the phrase, of forgiving, is used both of God and men. Thus the prayer of Solomon is paraphrased F25 by the Targumist:

``and hear thou the petition of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make before this place; and do thou receive it from the place of the house of thy Shekinah, from heaven; and do thou accept their prayer (Nwhybwxl qbvtw) , "and forgive their debts".''

So Joseph's brethren signify to him, that it was their father's orders to say unto him, "forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin"; which is rendered by the Chaldee paraphrasts F26 (ybwxl qwbv) , "forgive the debts" of thy brethren, and their sins. Accordingly, by "debts" are meant sins here, as appears from ( Luke 11:4 ) where it is read, "and forgive us our sin". These are called "debts"; not because they are so in themselves, for then it would be right to do them; debts should be paid; they are not debts we owe to God, but are so called, because on account of them we owe satisfaction to the law and justice of God: the proper debts we owe to God are love, obedience, and gratitude; and in default of these, we owe the debt of punishment. Now these debts are numerous, and we are incapable of paying, nor can any mere creature pay them for us; wherefore, we are directed to pray, that God would forgive them, or remit the obligation to punishment we lie under, on account of sin. This petition supposes a sense, acknowledgment, and confession of sin, and of inability to make satisfaction for it; and that God only can forgive it, who does, for Christ's sake, and on account of his blood, sacrifice, and satisfaction: what is here requested is a manifestation and application of pardon to the conscience of a sensible sinner; which, as it is daily needed, is daily to be asked for. The argument, or reason used, is,

as we forgive our debtors;
which is to be understood not so much of pecuniary debtors, though they are to be forgiven, when poor and unable to pay; but of such who have offended, or done real injuries to others, either by word or deed: the injuries of enemies, the unkindness of friends, all sorts of offences, are to be forgiven by us; and not only so, but we are to pray to God to forgive them also. Now this is mentioned, not as if our forgiving others is the cause of God's forgiving us, or the model of it, or as setting him an example, or as if his and our forgiving were to be compared together, since these will admit of no comparison; but this is an argument founded upon God's own promise and grace, to forgive such who have compassion on their fellow creatures.

The Biblical Illustrator

Matthew 6:12

Forgive us our debts.

Forgive us our debts

There is a twofold debt which man oweth to God.

 

I. A debt of duty, worship, and obedience;

 

II. A debt of punishment. (Thomas Manton, D. D.)

Our Debts

1. By this prayer we are reminded of our constant liability to sin.

2. We are led to separate between the fact and theory of forgiveness.

3. We are led to regard forgiveness as a favour, and not as a claim.

4. We are reminded of the only condition upon which forgiveness can be extended to us.

5. We are taught to comply with the condition which is required. (F. Edwards, B. A.)

“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us”

 

I. We must here take notice that we are obliged to go to our devotions with charity and good-will towards others.

 

II. It is implied on God’s part, that He vouchsafes pardon only upon these terms; yea, more, that He doth truly promise pardon upon our performing this condition.

 

The fifth petition

 

I. Observe how it begins-“and forgive,” etc. It follows prayer for daily bread. Life without forgiveness would not be worth having.

 

II. It is a prayer for the forgiving of our sins As the children of God.

 

III. Sin is described as a debt.

 

IV. This is a prayer for grace.

 

V. In this prayer for forgiveness we must fall in with the divine plan for its bestowment.

 

VI. The declaration connected with the prayer. (Dr. Stanford.)

The fifth petition

 

I. Sin considered as a debt to God.

1. A debt is what we owe.

2. We have failed to discharge it.

3. Let us glance at some items in the account.

4. Sins as debts

 

II. The debts of God’s pardoned children.

 

III. Our father’s forgiveness.

1. Absolute.

2. Immediate.

3. Complete.

 

IV. Prayer for pardon. Includes-

1. Conviction of guilt.

2. Contrition.

3. Confession.

4. Purpose of reformation.

 

V. Forgiveness of one another.

1. Human forgiveness.

2. Human forgiveness a condition of the Divine.

There can be no genuine prayer for pardon unless we cultivate a forgiving spirit:-

1. Pardon is always linked with repentance of sins, and these include an unforgiving spirit.

2. Faith in God’s mercy is incompatible with unmercifulness in ourselves.

3. Gratitude to God for pardon received or expected prompts forgiveness of others.

4. This prayer includes those who wrong us.

5. It is the prayer of a child of God. (Newman Hall, LL. B.)

 

Scofield's Reference Notes

we forgive our debtors

This is legal ground. Cf. Ephesians 4:32 which is grace. Under law forgiveness is conditioned upon a like spirit in us; under grace we are forgiven for Christ's sake, and exhorted to forgive because we have been forgiven.; Matthew 18:32; Matthew 26:28. (See Scofield "Matthew 26:28"

There are many more commentarys that explain forgiveness as unconditional . I truly hope this helps. I am deeply sad to think anyone who loves the lord will not forgive someone and that love would be in vain and they are not being forgiven.

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You see dear friends, forgiveness of those who don't deserve it are the same as us. We don't deserve forgiveness either.

It is the heart of forgiveness we must have before God. The very heart of God.

A heart that says I will forgive those undeserving people of the Sins that they have done to me, so that I can come before you oh God and receive forgiveness.

For when we go with this heart, this attitude, before God,Christ embraces us. He forgives us! 

This issue bothers me deeply. Satan will try anything to attack each of us. He comes in very calmly at times ( as he did in the garden with Eve, surely you won't die....) But his lies deceived her and horrible consequences followed. This is the same, the lies of Satan deceives and in this case, unforgiveness leads to unforgiveness.

This is from my heart, I will be praying.

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