Is Christianity the Only Way?

[Ovedya]

For our first "Soapbox" debate I am going to open up the floor to a polite debate/discussion with "Agnostic Front," who has agreed to discuss the following issue with me:

...I would like to discuss the notion that Christianity is the one and only True Religion and why you believe it is? As a christian, you believe as hardcore what you believe as another Muslim does in Islam, as a Hindu in Hinduism, and a Jew in Judaism. Why are you so certain you are right and they are all wrong? Telling me it's all just feelings won't cut it. I'm pretty sure that Punjab over in Bombay is feeling that he's right about his future reincarnation. I believe you think you're right just because Christianity is the "religion of choice" in your physical location where you grew up and it influenced your decision on what to believe.

But before we begin debating this issue formally, I would like to suggest a few parameters/rules:

1) This will be a "polite" discussion. This means that neither party will engage in namecalling, ad-hominem attacks, or resort to any manner of character assassination at any point in time.

2) Time to reply will not be a consideration. However, please be considerate enough to at least try to reply in a timely manner, or otherwise concede the discussion.

3) This is not a "win/lose" discussion. The nature of a debate is to argue your points clearly and to the best of your ability. Nobody is right or wrong. Even though you may use the words "right" and "wrong" in the process of disputing a point, the purpose of debate is to get your point across, and support that point with evidence. It is up to the reader to decide who's argument is more weighty.

4) Books and online articles may be used as source material. However, those articles may be referenced in accordance with the Terms of Service. Links to inappropriate material will be removed. Material that is plagiarized will not be considered at all. At all times participants will cite their source material completely.

5) Wherever possible, please try to avoid leading the course of discussion "off track," or "off topic." In order to have a clear and concise debate it is necessary to stick to the topic until such time as the issues involved have been completely discussed and all points have been exhausted. When such a point in the discussion has been reached then other issues can be brought into the discussion and debated.

Agnostic Front, please feel free to add any further points to this list, or modify them. Otherwise, if you are agreeable to these terms, then we can begin our debate.

Much Grace,

~O

[AgnosticFront84]

In agreement with rules, let's begin You can respond to my question that you quoted in the above post to start it off...

[Ovedya]

AF,

Please accept my most sincere apology for not getting back to this in a timely manner. I will try to be much more prompt in the future.

To begin with I think that we should briefly discuss, and perhaps come to some conclusion as to what the best criteria is for deciding which "religions" are likely to be right. I mean, think about it, there are perhaps thousands of religions in the world. How can one reasonably conclude which one is right?

I would suggest to you that there are at least three factors that we should consider as criteria for deciding which religions to examine. Those criteria are as follows:

1) The number of adherants to those religions.

2) Whether those religions have a written set of instructions or moral code for "holy" conduct.

3) Whether those religions have a holy man, seer, prophet, etc. that they follow as the holiest one of all. In other words, is there a "Christ" figure?

If we examine all the world religions according to these three criteria then we can really only come to three possibilities: Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. So now, we must compare these three and decide which one is truly the "right" religion to follow.

Questions/comments before I procede?

[AgnosticFront84]

I also apologize for my absence. I am currently outprocessing the Air Force and have cut my internet connection. I will not be on here very often and this discussion might have to be put on hold for a month or so I'm really sorry

[Ovedya]

I also apologize for my absence.  I am currently outprocessing the Air Force and have cut my internet connection. I will not be on here very often and this discussion might have to be put on hold for a month or so   I'm really sorry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

S'okay.

We've got as much time as you need. If you should perchance have the ability to view the forums in the near future, but cannot post, I'll be placing a couple more articles in this thread for you to consider. You can read them at your leasure and respond when you can.

Thanks for the heads up.

[Ovedya]

The following article is taken from chapter five of a book titled, "The Normal Christian Faith" by a man named Watchman Nee. Please consider and comment when you have the time:

SECTION TWO

CHRIST AND CHRISTIANITY

CHAPTER FIVE

CHRIST VERSUS DOCTRINES

Our Christian faith is based upon the revelation of God. It is different from all other religions which are attained through meditation, conjecture, and searching. We believe that the Bible is God's revelation to us. In other words, it is His spoken word to us. We also believe that God has become a man, who is the very Jesus of Nazareth. God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ constitute the basis of our faith.

THE POSITION OF CHRIST

Let us begin by looking at the position that Christ occupies in our faith, or we may say, in Christianity. However, Christianity has been altered and is not what it ought to be. At the present we will not mention what Christianity ought to be. Rather, we will only draw a comparison between Christianity and other religions in order to see the distinctiveness of our faith. We will not try purposely to exalt Christianity and debase other religions. We will only draw an objective comparison between them.

First, let us consider Confucianism. Actually, followers of Confucius never formally assert that theirs is a religion. Confucianism merely exercises great influence on Chinese culture, education, ethics, and philosophy. One thing, however, is certain: the teachings and doctrines of Confucius are of foremost importance, while the person Confucius is not as crucial. I do not mean that Confucianism has no concern for Confucius. The man indeed was an extraordinary person. However, in order to be a part of Confucianism, one only needs to understand the doctrines of Confucius, abide by his teachings, and be thoroughly acquainted with his books. It does not matter whether one understands the man Confucius or not. The principles, doctrines, and teachings of Confucius are the essence of the religion.

THE DOCTRINES OF BUDDHISM

Next let us consider Buddhism. The founder of Buddhism was Sakya Muni. Once he preached to his disciples about evil persons being reincarnated through the Wheel of Rebirth after death. This is something that attracts man's attention. But in all of Buddhism, the point of emphasis is doctrines and theories. Concerning the man Sakya Muni, although he has a history and biography, they are something parenthetical. They do not form the crux of Buddhism. The center of the religion is not the man Sakya Muni. Whether there was such a person is unimportant to today's Buddhism. All that is needed are the doctrines and teachings.

FOUNDERS ONLY LEFT THEIR DOCTRINES

Other religions such as Taoism and Mohammedanism are all of the same principle. After each founder set up a religion and left his teachings, doctrines, and regulations as the content of his religion, the founder himself was disassociated from the religion and had little to do with it.

CHRISTIANITY BUILT ON CHRIST

But our faith is entirely different. From its outset, Christianity is built on the man Christ. It is not built on the doctrines and teachings of Christ. It is amazing that when you open the Bible, you will not find too many chapters of doctrines. Passages where pure doctrinal issues are expounded are rare and of less concern to people. What concerns one the most is the man Himself and what kind of person He is. All who have read the Bible know that the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth are not outstandingly voluminous. His person draws our attention. He alone is the foundation of our faith.

The word Christ came from Greek, meaning the Anointed One. According to the Chinese, when a man takes up a task, he is given a letter of employment. The Jewish equivalent of this is anointing. When God summons a person for a work, He pours oil on the person as a seal of commission. Christ is the very God who was set apart to come to earth to be a man for the manifestation of God, in order that man may know God. Christ is the Anointed One. He is commissioned to such a task.

CHRIST DEMANDS OTHERS

TO BELIEVE IN HIM

Due to this basic distinction, Christ is different from the founders of other religions. Once He asked His disciples, "Who do you say that I am?" Over and over again He demanded that His disciples believe in Him. He said that he who believes in the Son has eternal life. Again He said, "He who loves father or mother above Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter above Me is not worthy of Me" (Matt. 10:37). Unless a man loves in this way, he is not worthy to be His disciple. Words such as these have been uttered only by Him. No other religious leader ever said anything like that. Confucius never said to Yen-weh or Tze-lu, "Believe in me," nor did he ever say, "Love me." Neither did any of the other leaders, such as Sakya Muni or Mohammed, demand of their disciples faith in them. All it takes to be their disciples is to believe in their doctrines.

THE ISSUE BEING WHO JESUS IS

Hence, the true Christian faith is based on a person. It is built on Christ and not on some doctrines. The crux of the true Christian faith is a question of who Jesus is! Is He merely a Jew? Is He only a prophet? Or is Jesus the Son of the living God? The whole matter hinges upon who Jesus of Nazareth is. The difference between a genuine Christian and a false one lies not in the knowledge of the doctrines of Christ. Rather, it lies in the knowledge of who Jesus is!

THE ANSWER IS IN THE BIBLE

Who is this man from Nazareth? Since this is a crucial question related to our basic faith, we have to find the answer in the Bible. We will pay more attention to the Gospel of John and discover that only Christ Himself is the center of the Bible and the focus of the whole of Christianity.

Before taking up the Gospel of John, we have to take a look at the background of the book. Prior to the coming of Christ, a forerunner was sent by God to prepare a way for Christ that men might be ready to acknowledge Christ. The forerunner was John the Baptist. Because of his powerful preaching, many people were convicted. As a result, many thought that he was the Christ who was supposed to come.

But John 1:8 says, "He was not the light, but came that he might testify concerning the light." The light means Christ. He is called the light because light reveals and manifests. John was not the Christ. He was only bearing witness to Christ.

Concerning this light, verse 9 says, "This was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." In this dark world, if a person has Christ, he will know all about God. When this light shines forth, man will say, "Here is God." They will recognize the light as God.

Up to verse 9, we still do not know who this light is. Read on from verse 10 to verse 15: "He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, yet those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. John testified concerning Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I said, He who is coming after me has become ahead of me, because He was before me." Have you realized, after reading the above verses, that all that is recorded here are actual facts, rather than many doctrines?

JESUS IS

What did John the Baptist say about Christ? He said, "He...is...after me." And yet He who was after John would be before him. This is because Christ was before him in the first place. This is the beginning of the testimony of John the Baptist.

John 1:27: "He who is coming after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie." The preaching of John is the beginning of our faith. He came just to tell others who Jesus of Nazareth is. Not only was Christ before John, He was so much greater than John that he was not worthy to untie the thong of His sandal and be His slave.

John 1:29: "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

Verse 30: "This is He of whom I said, A man is coming after me who has become ahead of me, because He was before me." When John introduced Jesus, he said, "This is He"! (v. 30). The Gospel begins by showing us who Jesus is!

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.asp?id=...onid=1&pageid=1

[AgnosticFront84]

First of all, what's up! Long time, no talk I finally got my internet back and ready for this discussion. Ok, back to the topic at hand...

The following article is taken from chapter five of a book titled, "The Normal Christian Faith" by a man named Watchman Nee.  Please consider and comment when you have the time:

SECTION TWO

CHRIST AND CHRISTIANITY

CHAPTER FIVE

CHRIST VERSUS DOCTRINES

Our Christian faith is based upon the revelation of God. It is different from all other religions which are attained through meditation, conjecture, and searching. We believe that the Bible is God's revelation to us. In other words, it is His spoken word to us. We also believe that God has become a man, who is the very Jesus of Nazareth. God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ constitute the basis of our faith.

THE POSITION OF CHRIST

Let us begin by looking at the position that Christ occupies in our faith, or we may say, in Christianity. However, Christianity has been altered and is not what it ought to be. At the present we will not mention what Christianity ought to be. Rather, we will only draw a comparison between Christianity and other religions in order to see the distinctiveness of our faith. We will not try purposely to exalt Christianity and debase other religions. We will only draw an objective comparison between them.

First, let us consider Confucianism. Actually, followers of Confucius never formally assert that theirs is a religion. Confucianism merely exercises great influence on Chinese culture, education, ethics, and philosophy. One thing, however, is certain: the teachings and doctrines of Confucius are of foremost importance, while the person Confucius is not as crucial. I do not mean that Confucianism has no concern for Confucius. The man indeed was an extraordinary person. However, in order to be a part of Confucianism, one only needs to understand the doctrines of Confucius, abide by his teachings, and be thoroughly acquainted with his books. It does not matter whether one understands the man Confucius or not. The principles, doctrines, and teachings of Confucius are the essence of the religion.

THE DOCTRINES OF BUDDHISM

Next let us consider Buddhism. The founder of Buddhism was Sakya Muni. Once he preached to his disciples about evil persons being reincarnated through the Wheel of Rebirth after death. This is something that attracts man's attention. But in all of Buddhism, the point of emphasis is doctrines and theories. Concerning the man Sakya Muni, although he has a history and biography, they are something parenthetical. They do not form the crux of Buddhism. The center of the religion is not the man Sakya Muni. Whether there was such a person is unimportant to today's Buddhism. All that is needed are the doctrines and teachings.

I fully understand the concept the author is trying to display here. All other religions focus on the doctrines and teachings but not the founder of the religion. Christianity, on the other hand, focuses on the life of Christ, him being self-proclaimed man-god, and people knowing they must accept him as God.

FOUNDERS ONLY LEFT THEIR DOCTRINES

Other religions such as Taoism and Mohammedanism are all of the same principle. After each founder set up a religion and left his teachings, doctrines, and regulations as the content of his religion, the founder himself was disassociated from the religion and had little to do with it.

Ditto my last comment.

CHRISTIANITY BUILT ON CHRIST

But our faith is entirely different. From its outset, Christianity is built on the man Christ. It is not built on the doctrines and teachings of Christ. It is amazing that when you open the Bible, you will not find too many chapters of doctrines. Passages where pure doctrinal issues are expounded are rare and of less concern to people. What concerns one the most is the man Himself and what kind of person He is. All who have read the Bible know that the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth are not outstandingly voluminous. His person draws our attention. He alone is the foundation of our faith.

True that That's factual information about your religion and I agree with this. Not built on the teachings, but the teachings are obviously adhered to.

The word Christ came from Greek, meaning the Anointed One. According to the Chinese, when a man takes up a task, he is given a letter of employment. The Jewish equivalent of this is anointing. When God summons a person for a work, He pours oil on the person as a seal of commission. Christ is the very God who was set apart to come to earth to be a man for the manifestation of God, in order that man may know God. Christ is the Anointed One. He is commissioned to such a task.

Hmm...In the eyes of Christians this may be true, but to say the latter section of this is fact is wrong. It is belief. The author is obviously speaking in terms of Christianity because he is making statements as if they were empirical fact and not faith. "Christ IS the Anointed One... Christ IS the very God..."

CHRIST DEMANDS OTHERS

TO BELIEVE IN HIM

Due to this basic distinction, Christ is different from the founders of other religions. Once He asked His disciples, "Who do you say that I am?" Over and over again He demanded that His disciples believe in Him. He said that he who believes in the Son has eternal life. Again He said, "He who loves father or mother above Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter above Me is not worthy of Me" (Matt. 10:37). Unless a man loves in this way, he is not worthy to be His disciple. Words such as these have been uttered only by Him. No other religious leader ever said anything like that. Confucius never said to Yen-weh or Tze-lu, "Believe in me," nor did he ever say, "Love me." Neither did any of the other leaders, such as Sakya Muni or Mohammed, demand of their disciples faith in them. All it takes to be their disciples is to believe in their doctrines.

Ovedya, I'm very glad you happened to include these words said by Jesus. This was a major problem I've always had with Jesus' teachings. There is no way I would ever love an invisible, supposed man-god who died 2000 years ago over my tangible parents or other family members. With all his might and power and glory and whatever, this Jesus can't even respond when called out to. Scream as loud as you can, Easter bunny, can you hear me!!?? You will receive the same response when you substitute the name Jesus Christ. It hurt me as a child when my father (who is a fundamentalist born-again) uttered these words to me, admitting he loves Jesus more than me. Sorry, don't mean to get all personal, but this is my opinion on this topic. Anyway, onward...

THE ISSUE BEING WHO JESUS IS

Hence, the true Christian faith is based on a person. It is built on Christ and not on some doctrines. The crux of the true Christian faith is a question of who Jesus is! Is He merely a Jew? Is He only a prophet? Or is Jesus the Son of the living God? The whole matter hinges upon who Jesus of Nazareth is. The difference between a genuine Christian and a false one lies not in the knowledge of the doctrines of Christ. Rather, it lies in the knowledge of who Jesus is!

Nothing new here, next...

THE ANSWER IS IN THE BIBLE

Who is this man from Nazareth? Since this is a crucial question related to our basic faith, we have to find the answer in the Bible. We will pay more attention to the Gospel of John and discover that only Christ Himself is the center of the Bible and the focus of the whole of Christianity.

Before taking up the Gospel of John, we have to take a look at the background of the book. Prior to the coming of Christ, a forerunner was sent by God to prepare a way for Christ that men might be ready to acknowledge Christ. The forerunner was John the Baptist. Because of his powerful preaching, many people were convicted. As a result, many thought that he was the Christ who was supposed to come.

But John 1:8 says, "He was not the light, but came that he might testify concerning the light." The light means Christ. He is called the light because light reveals and manifests. John was not the Christ. He was only bearing witness to Christ.

Concerning this light, verse 9 says, "This was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." In this dark world, if a person has Christ, he will know all about God. When this light shines forth, man will say, "Here is God." They will recognize the light as God.

Up to verse 9, we still do not know who this light is. Read on from verse 10 to verse 15: "He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, yet those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. John testified concerning Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I said, He who is coming after me has become ahead of me, because He was before me." Have you realized, after reading the above verses, that all that is recorded here are actual facts, rather than many doctrines?

Yes, I know this, according to John chapter 1, John was sent by God to bear witness of the Light, Jesus. I have absolutely no clue why God would send his Son knowing people wouldn't even recognize Him as His Son.

JESUS IS

What did John the Baptist say about Christ? He said, "He...is...after me." And yet He who was after John would be before him. This is because Christ was before him in the first place. This is the beginning of the testimony of John the Baptist.

John 1:27: "He who is coming after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie." The preaching of John is the beginning of our faith. He came just to tell others who Jesus of Nazareth is. Not only was Christ before John, He was so much greater than John that he was not worthy to untie the thong of His sandal and be His slave.

John 1:29: "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

Verse 30: "This is He of whom I said, A man is coming after me who has become ahead of me, because He was before me." When John introduced Jesus, he said, "This is He"! (v. 30). The Gospel begins by showing us who Jesus is!

I believe that John, who was a witness of Jesus, HAD to reinforce the "fact" to everybody that Jesus was God. It was his duty as a leader of this new cult to spread his name out there and to exaggerate that this great person, Jesus, was really God's son. You see, John's Gospel MUST exhault Jesus' name beyond reality to make people believe he is actually who he says he is. This was the job of the rest of the disciples too. Well, minus Judas, he had some personal problems he was dealing with at that time. Basically, you can't bring out a new product without good marketing.

~~

OK, You may respond to my comments if you so wish or you can comment on my excerpt from another book. I chose this chapter because it explains how Christianity got from Jerusalem to Rome. (We know how Christianity came to America already). How it spread and why it spread. It is quite amazing to me that Christianity is still holding strong today and didn't fizzle down like many other religions disregarded as myths today.

Taken from chapter 1 of the book titled, "Biblical Nonsense" by Dr. Jason Long

Jerusalem To Rome

The early spread of Christianity is almost entirely attributed to the Apostle Paul. His letters to neighboring regions, especially the one to the Romans included in the New Testament, were widely influential in changing local religious views. Before the purported arrival of Jesus Christ, the original Hebrew religion, as found in the Old Testament, was an unfathomably harsh one. If you

[Ovedya]

QUOTE

The word Christ came from Greek, meaning the Anointed One. According to the Chinese, when a man takes up a task, he is given a letter of employment. The Jewish equivalent of this is anointing. When God summons a person for a work, He pours oil on the person as a seal of commission. Christ is the very God who was set apart to come to earth to be a man for the manifestation of God, in order that man may know God. Christ is the Anointed One. He is commissioned to such a task.

Hmm...In the eyes of Christians this may be true, but to say the latter section of this is fact is wrong. It is belief. The author is obviously speaking in terms of Christianity because he is making statements as if they were empirical fact and not faith. "Christ IS the Anointed One... Christ IS the very God..."

The man who wrote this is was Chinese, so I think he understands the concept pretty well. Since he is taking the Biblical definition of what "Joshua" means (Joshua is the Hebrew word which is translated into the Greek as "Jesus"), it is perfectly correct for him to say, "Christ is the Anointed One."

Whether or not Jesus is God is not a matter of subjective faith alone, although subjective faith is needed to completely comprehend the implication of what this means. Objectively you need to arrive at the answer to only one of three questions: Was Jesus the greatest con artist the earth has ever known? Was Jesus the most influential lunatic the earth has ever known? Was Jesus exactly who He claimed to be?

There simply is no doubt that a man named Jesus once lived on the earth. There is far too much evidence of Jesus having lived on the earth to dispute it. Now, since Jesus lived on the earth, and since the Bible records eyewitness accounts of this, we can look at some of the statements attributed to this man and decide which of the answers more accurately reflects who He was.

Among all of the things attributed to Jesus, one thing stands out in stark contrast to what we might simply consider "good teachings." After all, another option we might consider is whether or not Jesus was simply an influential teacher. However, unless a teacher was seeking gain in some way, he would not make statements in which he alludes to himself as being God, which Jesus did, and this is the statement that sets Him apart from just a common - or extraordinary - teacher. As ethical and as moral as Jesus teachings were, He would have to be insane to have called Himself God. Therefore, we have to consider the three questions that I posited above.

First of all, Was Jesus the greatest con artist the world has ever known? Well, first lets look at what a con artist does. A con artist cons - or fools - people into believing something in order to gain something else. Most often that's money. However, a con artist can also con himself into a position of authority or power. The greatest skill of a con artist is his ability to lie, and to make people believe the lies that he tells.

When we look at the the life of Jesus as it is recorded inthe four gospels we have to arrive at the conclusion that He was definitely not a con artist. Or if He was, He would have had to have been the worse con artist the earth has ever known, not the greatest. The records of Jesus' life in the gospels showed that He was a poor man. Jesus was born in a stable, not a house or even an Inn, He was born to a poor family, and when He began preaching He lived a life of abject poverty. Jesus never held a position of power, He never had any influence in politics, and He never asked for money for anything.

Furthermore, had Jesus lied about who He was it is likely that within the first 100 years after his death persons who knew Him would have discovered the truth. Or if they had any doubts about who He truly was, they would not have willingly given up their lives for Him. Yet each one of the apostles willingly gave their lives up for this man.

Second, was Jesus the most influential lunatic the world has ever known? In order for Jesus to have called Himself God, Jesus could have simply been crazy. However, according to the gospels Jesus was a very wise man. In fact, He was wiser at the age of 12 years old than men who had studies their entire lives. Wisdom and craziness don't often go hand-in-hand. Furthermore, not only did Jesus Himself claim to be God, those that wrote about Him in the Bible said the same thing. So again, if these apostles who had written about Him had known that He was crazy, or suspected that He was crazy, then they would not have willingly died for Him.

So finally, you have to arrive at the conclusion that Jesus was not a con artist and that He certainly was not a lunatic. The only conclusion that you could arrive at is that He was exactly who He claimed to be, and the writers of the New Testament each affirm that with confidence.

You might be wondering why I used the term, "...the world has ever known" in each of the first two questions. Well, if you consider the fact that throughout history men have willingly given up all that they have and have ever had (And some have even given up their lives) for this man Jesus, then you would have to say that He is truly the most influential person the world has ever known. And that's something quite remarkable. Actually, it's even qualifiable. No other man on the entire face of the earth has affected history as much as Jesus of Nazareth. What He said and did in a span of only 3 1/2 years has affected the history of the past 2,000 years!

I believe that John, who was a witness of Jesus, HAD to reinforce the "fact" to everybody that Jesus was God. It was his duty as a leader of this new cult to spread his name out there and to exaggerate that this great person, Jesus, was really God's son. You see, John's Gospel MUST exhault Jesus' name beyond reality to make people believe he is actually who he says he is. This was the job of the rest of the disciples too. Well, minus Judas, he had some personal problems he was dealing with at that time. Basically, you can't bring out a new product without good marketing.

There are a lot of problems with that view, not the least of which is the fact that there is no evidence at all of a conspiracy. You must remember that John was not the only gospel writer, and furthermore he was not a leader of the new "cult" called Christianity.

Think about it for a minute: Have you ever known someone to make up a lie, or exaggerate a set of facts for some kind of gain, and then willingly die for that exaggeration? And this would not be just any ordinary death, mind you, it would be the most horrific and painful death - accompanied by torture - that you could possibly imagine. Remember the accounts of Jesus' death in the Bible? These accounts show Jesus suffering humiliation (He was stripped naked then teased), being beaten with rods and fists, being whipped with a cords of leather tipped with glass shards, and finally having nails driven through His wrists and feet and being left to hang on the top of a hill in the blistering sun until dying. The Romans were experts at death and torture. Remember that they ruled almost the entire civilized world for a few hundred years. They were a force that was near impossible to stop.

So comparing the story of John with a marketing campaign is really not a good argument. Nobody would suffer such great torture and death for a story that they invented in order to gain some credibility. Furthermore, Christianity had no credibility roughly until Constantine converted. All the accounts of the early church period show that they were persecuted mercilessly wherever they lived.

It's nice to think that the gospel accounts were exaggerations of the words of a great teacher. But in reality one would have had to be crazy to exalt such a person beyond what He claimed for Himself. Especially when that teacher had already claimed Himself to be God in the first place. So basically, when we read the gospels, these are the writings of the persons who were witnesses of what Jesus said and did, and when we read the other epistles of the New Testament, these are the affirmations of what the gospels wrote about.

[AgnosticFront84]

There simply is no doubt that a man named Jesus once lived on the earth. There is far too much evidence of Jesus having lived on the earth to dispute it.

I know I told you I wanted to bow out of this discussion but this statement brought a few questions to mind. Why is there no doubt that Jesus lived on the earth? Excluding the Bible, there is only one secular (more non-Christian) account of Jesus' existence annotated by a historian from these times. I'm sure you know him as Josephus Flavius (37-100 A.D.) the Jewish historian. Of the large volumes of Jewish history and ongoing wars he wrote about, he only mentioned Jesus ("of Nazerath") twice in Antiquities. To me, this is kind of strange. Of all the historical information he wrote about in his years, he mentions Jesus, a man claiming to be the son of God, defiling his religion, excecuted - ressurrected, a man of miracles....only twice?? Here is what he has to say about him:

(Antiquities 18)

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

(Antiquities 20)

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others.

These two excerpts of Jesus' mention are the only (to my knowledge, please prove me wrong) from a non-Christian historian from the 1st century. The problem with even these excerpts is they have been proven to be forgeries. Discovered byEusebius (scroll down to: Olson, "Eusebius and the Testimonium Flavianum"), who was known for forging documents in favor of Christianity. The preceeding excerpts from Antiquities do not correlate with the writing styles of Josephus and are spoken in Christian terminology.

Did Jesus exist? Absolutely. Which one are you talking about though? Jesus ben Phiabi, Jesus ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus, Jesus ben Sirach, or Jesus ben Pandira just to name a few from the supposed Jesus of Nazareth era.

Not debating, discussing I would really enjoy seeing a few examples of "far too much evidence of Jesus having lived on the earth to dispute it."

Edited September 21, 2005 by AgnosticFront84

[EricH]

It would appear that this debate has run its course