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The First Seal


Last Daze

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7 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Piecing together Rev 13, Matthew 24, and Daniel 7, I see a specific time of war (seals 2-4) followed by a global specific time (3.5 years) of the saints being persecuted by the man of sin (seal 5).  That hasn't happened yet which is why I think that only the first seal has been opened.

 

Ok thanks for clarifying that for me.  If I understand you correctly you see seals 2-4 as directly associated with the war on the saints.

 

10 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Seals 2-4 address a time of war which I believe is responsible for the ensuing famine and plagues.  The time of war is described as nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom.  I expect that not many nations, if any, will come through unscathed.  I'm not sure any of the other conditions, outside of earthquakes, are seal related.

 

I agree that not many nations, if any, will come through unscathed.  I just wasn't sure if you saw those seals as leading up to the war on the saints or directly associated with it, but I think I understand your position now.  I have to take some time and consider that possibility.

 

13 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Yes, the evil spirit being.

 

This is interesting to me.  If the beast out of the sea is actually here already, then you see Revelation 12 as having already begun?

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32 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Ok thanks for clarifying that for me.  If I understand you correctly you see seals 2-4 as directly associated with the war on the saints.

Yes, directly associated with as in immediately preceding.  Seal 5 begins the war on the saints.  The time of war brings the man of sin to the fore who then wages war against the saints.

35 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

This is interesting to me.  If the beast out of the sea is actually here already, then you see Revelation 12 as having already begun?

The beast and his 10 horns have been working behind the scenes for decades setting the stage for the rise of the man of sin.  There are many facets to what he's been doing but everything he does is for the ultimate purpose of the man of sin exercising dominion over every nation, tribe, people, and tongue.

I don't think that Satan gets cast down to earth until the second seal is opened, or shortly thereafter.  According to Matthew 24:8, the time of war is the beginning of birth pangs.  Things will begin to take place more quickly and with more intensity than before.  In that analogy, the decades long activity of the beast could be analogous to the gestation period.  The second seal is when things get real serious, quickly.

I'm not sure if that answers your question since I don't know exactly what in Rev 12 you're referring to or how you view it.

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55 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I'm not sure if that answers your question since I don't know exactly what in Rev 12 you're referring to or how you view it.

 

Well, mostly it is because of how chapter 12 ends.  The very last part of chapter 12 should actually be the beginning of chapter 13, it was split up incorrectly by translators.  I will post what I am talking about and underline the section that should start chapter 13.  To illustrate what I mean I will post the first verse of 13 right after.

 

Revelation 12: 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 

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16 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Well, mostly it is because of how chapter 12 ends.  The very last part of chapter 12 should actually be the beginning of chapter 13, it was split up incorrectly by translators.  I will post what I am talking about and underline the section that should start chapter 13.  To illustrate what I mean I will post the first verse of 13 right after.

Revelation 12: 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 

I think that we have a similar view of the chronology of Revelation -- Chapters 6-11 are chronological with the 7th trumpet bringing about the return of Jesus.  Chapters 12-19 primarily provide additional details to the events that take place in chapters 6-11 and tend to be more topical in nature than chronological.

  • Chapter 12 describes the battle for the exercise of dominion over the earth.
  • Chapter 13 describes the interplay between the dragon, beast, and false prophet as they wage war against the saints through the mark and the image.

Chapter 12 ends just before the fifth seal is opened and the war against the saints commences.  Chapter 13 tells us how that war will be waged through the mark and image, however, it begins by going back to the first seal so we can see the interplay of the evil trio.

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On 11/4/2019 at 2:39 AM, Last Daze said:

An explanation of why the first seal has already been opened and who the rider of the white horse is and why.

  • Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come.”  I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.  Revelation 6:1-2

The chronology of the last days goes like this: the gospel shall be preached around the world, then the end shall come (Matt 24:14).  This is restated in Revelation as "the things which are" and "the things that take place afterwards" (Rev 1:19).  In other words, God is going to fulfill His promise to Abraham in that all the nations would be blessed through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and then the end will come, a process which begins with the opening of the first seal.

The preaching of the gospel around the world is known as the times of the Gentiles.  We know that this has already been fulfilled because Jerusalem is not being trampled under foot by the Gentiles (Luke 21:24).  Since that's true, we know that we are somewhere in the process of God bringing about the end, which means that the first seal has been opened.  This is also evidenced in the presence of the feet of iron and clay kingdom in Daniel 2.  That multinational, multi-ethnic world kingdom is fulfilled in the U.N.  Since the first seal has been opened, and the final world kingdom exists, its reasonable to assume a link between the two, a cause and effect.

Daniel 10 teaches that there are evil spirit beings that bring about world kingdoms.  We know from Daniel 7 that the beast with 10 horns brings about the final world kingdom.  Revelation 17:8 says that the beast with 10 horns will at some point come up out of the abyss.  Since the abyss is a place of restraint for evil spirit beings, he would have to be released before the final world kingdom could come about, which it has.

Consequently, it stands to reason that the first seal has already been opened and that the white horse rider is the evil spirit beast with 10 horns.  He has brought about the final world kingdom, the feet of iron and clay, which is pushing a globalist agenda.  He is able to conquer through lies and deception.  He was given a crown because his final world kingdom does not have a king so he serves as its king, at least until the man of sin is revealed.  That is what is meant in Rev 17:11 where the beast is considered an 8th king and is of the seven. 

I'd be happy to clarify and discuss this view if anyone is interested.  I know that everyone sees things differently, and that's fine, I'm not going to argue.  I'm perfectly happy to let other people have their views on the subject.  It's pretty clear to me that we are in the time of the end and what's important is that we stay awake and continue to be light in a world in darkness and endure to the end.

Hi Last Daze

I will give my view.

 Revelation 6:2   And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The horse is white, symbolising purity.  The rider has a bow.  A bow is bent.  He has a crown (authority) and he went forth conquering .....and to conquer.

I believe the white horse already started running when the gospel went out to the gentiles around the time the Roman church started.  During this time, the gospel was preached but because of the bow, the preaching is bent and not straight.  The Roman church, with their  authority, went on to conquer souls amongst the nations through the traditions and the doctrine they had established.  A religion was born and she is the mother church who has since produced many branches.

 

and I believe this matches with;

 Matthew 24:5   For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

They came in Christ's name.  They are not saying they are the Christ, but are preaching Christ.  All this kicked off a new era.  One that would spiral downwards until the end.

 

 Revelation 6:3   And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

  Revelation 6:4   And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

 The second horse comes next, and symbolises war.  I believe what followed the first horse was the first and second world wars.  These were "great wars", hence the "great sword".  Since then wars and rumours of wars have continued.  Rumours of wars is a big clue.  They have been trying to instill fear into us, so that we go along with whatever the government wants to do, and let them take away more of our freedoms in the process.

I believe this matches with;

  Matthew 24:6   And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
 

So, the first and second seal have been already opened.  The third seal also.

Matthew 24:7   For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
 

Famine always follows a war.


Matthew 24:8   All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Seal 1-3 was the start of the countdown.

The beast will come during the 4th seal. 

The saints will be persecuted during the 5th seal.

The 7 trumpets and vials will start sounding during the 6th seal.  After the persecutions.  God's revenge.

The 7th Seal "reveals" what those trumpets and vials contain with more detail given.

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4 hours ago, Sister said:

I believe the white horse already started running when the gospel went out to the gentiles around the time the Roman church started.  During this time, the gospel was preached but because of the bow, the preaching is bent and not straight.  The Roman church, with their  authority, went on to conquer souls amongst the nations through the traditions and the doctrine they had established.  A religion was born and she is the mother church who has since produced many branches.

Thanks Sister.  The issue that I have with the white horse rider being equated to the gospel going forth is that it doesn't fit into the "top-level" chronology that Jesus gave us in Matthew 24 and Revelation concerning the last days.  The order is that the times of the Gentiles comes first, then the end.  This is seen in Revelation as the seven Gentile churches and what must take place afterward.

  • And Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  Luke 21:24b

This is the maker that Jesus gave us to let us know that the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled and that we are in the time of the end when the seals are opening.  The gospel has been preached around the world as a witness to the nations as evidenced by Jerusalem not being under Gentile subjugation.

  • This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations [Gentiles], and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

We are in the time of the end when the seals are being opened.  This couldn't have begun until the gospel had been preached around the world.

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10 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Thanks Sister.  The issue that I have with the white horse rider being equated to the gospel going forth is that it doesn't fit into the "top-level" chronology that Jesus gave us in Matthew 24 and Revelation concerning the last days.  The order is that the times of the Gentiles comes first, then the end.  This is seen in Revelation as the seven Gentile churches and what must take place afterward.

  • And Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  Luke 21:24b

 

Thanks Last Daze

The gentiles are coming to occupy Jerusalem.  In the OT, God calls them the kings of the North.  Jerusalem will be occupied for 3.5 yrs by the end time beasts kingdom.  The occupation of Jerusalem is the start of the tribulation and all leads up to that great war...at the end.... where more gentiles come in to battle.  This is the war of man against man, kingdom against kingdom.

 

Quote

 

This is the maker that Jesus gave us to let us know that the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled and that we are in the time of the end when the seals are opening.  The gospel has been preached around the world as a witness to the nations as evidenced by Jerusalem not being under Gentile subjugation.

  • This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations [Gentiles], and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

We are in the time of the end when the seals are being opened.  This couldn't have begun until the gospel had been preached around the world.

 

The time of the gentiles are fulfilled when Christ returns and saves Jerusalem.  The preaching of the gospel has gone on for over 2000 years.  Don't forget the two witnesses will be preaching also during the 3.5yrs. They are the last witnesses.  When they are killed, the coming comes quickly (3rd woe)

So as I see it, by the time the preaching has ended with the 2 witnesses we are at the end of the seals, not the beginning.

When the first seal was opened, Christ name was preached, but not in full truth.  A new kind of tradition was introduced, and not the one that the apostles kept.  Rome was the mother church with their doctrine already locked in.  From there, anyone who disagreed branched out and the protestant churches were born - after this, it branched out further like many rivers and streams.  Today what we have is division in doctrine amongst all the Christian churches.  Not all are preaching the same word.  This is how Satan wants it, ....confusion, and just pick your church according to taste, ....what is popular or what we are born into.  It all had to start somewhere so that the flow of confusion and division could remain until the end times.  This is when that seal was opened.  It set a precedent for what we have now - division in the Christian land. 

That white horse (1st seal) is still running.  It never stopped.  It just continues running to this day.  This is how I understand it.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Sister said:

Thanks Last Daze

The gentiles are coming to occupy Jerusalem.  In the OT, God calls them the kings of the North.  Jerusalem will be occupied for 3.5 yrs by the end time beasts kingdom.  The occupation of Jerusalem is the start of the tribulation and all leads up to that great war...at the end.... where more gentiles come in to battle.  This is the war of man against man, kingdom against kingdom.

The time of the gentiles are fulfilled when Christ returns and saves Jerusalem.  The preaching of the gospel has gone on for over 2000 years.  Don't forget the two witnesses will be preaching also during the 3.5yrs. They are the last witnesses.  When they are killed, the coming comes quickly (3rd woe)

I largely agree with the above with one subtle distinction to be made.

  • Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.  Revelation 11:2
  • For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.  Romans 11:25

The first verse supports what you said about a future 3.5 year occupation of Jerusalem by the Gentiles.  Since Jerusalem is not currently being tread under foot by Gentiles, the times of the Gentiles are completed according to what Jesus said in Luke 21:24.  What is accomplished when Jesus returns and saves Jerusalem is the fullness of the Gentiles.

While they may sound similar, be careful not to confuse the times of the Gentiles with the fullness of the Gentiles.  The difference between the two is the same as the difference between sowing and reaping.  The times of the Gentiles was taking place when the seed of the gospel was being sown around the world.  The fullness of the Gentiles is the harvesting of the crop when it has reached maturity.  We are currently in the growing/maturation process that will culminate in the harvesting.

  • And He was saying, “The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know.  The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head.  But when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”  Mark 4:26-29

The return of Jesus will bring about a harvest.

  • Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.  And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.”  Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.  Revelation 14:14-16

Something to think about.

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Hi Last Daze

Luke 21:24   And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

 Romans 11:25   For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

Yes I agree, there is a difference between "the times of the Gentiles" and the "the fullness of the Gentiles."  Both however happen at the same time. 

The times of the Gentiles is the fulfillment of all prophecy right down to the final occupation of Jerusalem and that war close to the end of the tribulation where more Gentiles come in and destroy everything in their path.

Joel gives us a glimpse of that day;

 Joel 2:1   Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

  Joel 2:2   A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

  Joel 2:3   A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

  Joel 2:4   The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

  Joel 2:5   Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

  Joel 2:6   Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

  Joel 2:7   They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

  Joel 2:8   Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

  Joel 2:9   They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

  Joel 2:10   The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

This is not the start of the occupation of Jersualem, but at the end of it when the Mede's stand up (kings of the east) which happens at the 6th trumpet.  This starts that 3rd WW, but it will be cut short or no flesh will be saved.  This is the last time Jerusalem will ever have strangers come and cause terror, for the Lord will come and provide an escape for the remnants of Israel.  When he comes, the remnants will realise that the one they rejected is the one that comes to save them.  The veil will be removed then, at the end,...at the Coming of Christ.  The times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.  That era is over, and a new one about to begin.

When the "fullness of the Gentiles come in", it will be at the Coming of Christ also.  All those Gentiles who are chosen and who followed the Lamb will take place in the resurrection of the saints.  The saints will be resurrected whilst the remnants of Israel are fleeing out of the city.  At the same time the armies of the nations will gather in Megiddo to prepare for battle against the Lamb.  This day is as you say, the reaping of the earth.  The resurrection has to take place before Israel can be healed, when "the fulness of the Gentiles" come in - the resurrection of the saints.

 

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On 11/5/2019 at 6:32 AM, Last Daze said:

  If we seek the truth, the Spirit of truth will lead us to see things similarly and eventually we will agree.  The key is that we remain teachable in the pursuit of truth.  Too many quit too early and become contentious.

Hi LD,

I have to disagree with the OP. I don't believe the first seal has been opened yet.

I wrote the following in an email, but it pretty much covers the first seal and the white horse. 

First, we know that the seals cannot be the Wrath of God. Although Jesus opens the seals on the 7 sealed scroll, the riders on the horses themselves cause all the events. The fifth seal that follows the four horsemen proves unequivocally that the horsemen are not the Wrath of God.
 
The rider of the white horse carries a bow and is intent on conquering. The rider of the red horse takes peace of mind from the earth. The rider of the black horse sets the price for grain, and the rider of the green horse is death itself.
 
God's word always has a second witness to help explain prophetic verses. Zech 6 is a second witness to Rev 6 and helps describe the horses and shows they are spirit beings. But it doesn't describe the horsemen. The passage that does is Rev 13.
 
 
In Rev. 13 we learn the unholy ministry of the False Prophet is to  “make the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast (the Antichrist).” (Rev. 13:12) The False Prophet does this by four methods:
  • Signs and Lying Wonders (Rev. 13: 13-14). The False Prophet and Antichrist will deceive the world thru supernatural signs. This will give their message an air of “authority.” Jesus said, “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.” (Matt. 24:24) When the Muslim Jesus (Isa) claims to be the historic Jesus of the Bible and performs signs, only those with the strong faith will be able to resist him.
  • Warfare and Bloodshed (Rev. 13:4). The False Prophet and Antichrist will wage very successful military campaigns. These will cause the inhabitants of the earth to worship the Beast and say, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”
  • The Mark of the Beast (Rev. 13:16-17). During the economic collapse that follows the third seal, the world will be thrown in famine. The False Prophet will have an answer: take the Mark and trade your soul for food. Only those with the strongest faith will be able to resist this life-sustaining “Mark”.
  • Finally, once Islam is established as the “one true religion” world-wide through deception and economic “salvation” for the starving, the False Prophet will institute his final method of promoting worship of the Antichrist: persecution (Rev. 13: 15). Everyone who won’t prostrate themselves before the image of the Beast will be killed.
So, let's look at the first seal.
 
There are those that claim that the white horse is associated with righteousness because the color white is used 17 times in Revelation, so this must also be associated with righteousness. 
 
However, white is also the color of deception in the Bible.
 
Look at Ezekiel 13:10......."They have misled My people by saying 'Peace' when there is no peace. And when anyone builds a wall, behold, they plaster it over with white wash"
 
Jesus used this term 'white' in the same way when speaking to the Pharisees...." Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for you are like white washed tombs which outwardly appear beautiful but within are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanliness".....Matt 23:27
 
In the same way, the white horse and rider represent deception. Look at what Jesus tells us in Matt 24....." For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders. so as to mislead....(deceit):"
 
The white horse rider also carries two symbols...... a bow (without arrows)...... and a crown.
 
The crown is a stephanos crown, a simple laurel leaf given to a victor. So the rider on the white horse is trying to look like Jesus but he is an impostor.(deceit)
 
The bow without arrows is a symbol of treachery and deceit. In Psalm 78:57...."And acted treacherously like their fathers; they twisted like a deceitful bow".................And in Hosea 7:16...."They return, but not upward; they are like a treacherous bow"
 
" and he went out conquering and to conquer".....in the Greek, conquer is NIKAO, which means to spiritually overcome.
 
So, the purpose of the first seal, the white horse, is to undermine confidence in the true Messiah, and to deceive the world by means of a false messiah, and a false prophet who can perform signs and wonders. This is the beginning of multi-faceted deceptions that will cause the inhabitants of the world to doubt the true Messiah and to have confidence in and worship the Beast.
 
And isn't that Satan's ultimate desire......to have men worship him?
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