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Same Arguments, Same Failures


Tzephanyahu

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Shalom to the chosen of Yahweh,

We see the same old arguments over and over again.  It’s tiresome for me and surely boring for many others.  

The pattern goes like this:  Someone posts something about the Law and someone else responds contesting it with Grace.  Then you’ll get the same arguments breakout, with many Scripture bombs, and basically it never gets resolved.

The problem is this:  The accusations that are made during the arguments, from both sides, are exaggerated and blown out of proportion, encouraged by the same handful of people.

  • Those for Torah can falsely accuse “You’re using Grace as a license to sin! What? If there is no Torah are you saying it’s okay to murder? Or commit adultery?”
  • Those for Grace can falsely accuse “You are under the law Judaizer!  What? Do you think you can keep all 613 commandments? You cannot add to the Messiah’s work”

Both these arguments are immature and foolish.  They are exaggerated accusations, based on genuine fears but acted upon irrationally and unreasonably.    

Before either side can discuss Torah and Grace, why not FIRST act in love, peace and long-suffering towards one another? Why not first assuming the BEST in each other, instead of the worse and slinging unreasonable accusations?  Otherwise this whole debate is meaningless.  You may win the post but so what?  You’ve lost the whole point.

There are a handful of people responsible for endorsing this behaviour, whom I will not name because of the rules of this forum.  They will say or imply that you are either for Torah entirely or for Grace entirely.  Much like the enemy’s schemes, they either pull us in one direction or push us into the other, so that we will fall into error from the narrow path between.

Indeed there is a path between Torah and Grace which others walk.   I could post more on this but, whilst the forum is in this childish-like state of slinging irrational responses, there is little point.

But let’s at least start with assuming the best in our brothers and sisters.  Consider their viewpoint without trying to categorise them as a this or that.  

As for those in here working against the Body with sheep’s clothing and honey-coated words –  their fruit is apparent in words and attitude.  I see you and hopefully others do to.  My advice to the rest is to ignore such people BUT don’t therefore ignore Torah or Grace because of their foolishness, which comes from either their ignorance or from the enemy (pushing or pulling).  

Consider that the truth is under constant attack from the enemy, in the world, the church and this forum.  Don’t be pushed too far this way or pulled too far that way.  Walk the path as dictated by the counsel of the whole Word of God and discuss with the assumption you still know little.  Only then can we all grow individually and in unity.

Love & Shalom

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EXPECTED OBJECTIONS

1. I stand for truth.  Newbies come in here all the time and will be caught up in error if I don’t argue!
Fine, but then make your plight one filled with love, patience, understanding and gentleness so that your message will stand for those called to read it

 

2. You can’t mix Torah and Grace. One brings death and the other brings life.
Not true.  This is just black or white thinking that comes with not understanding the Bible properly or through evil design. Salvation is salvation and obedience is obedience.  Two different but vital matters.

 

3. But you have to obey “this law” in order to be saved.
Be very careful what you say.  The power of Yahweh’s salvation is truly mighty.  If you judge by this way, you will be judged in like manner.

 

4. But if you obey “this law” you’re trying to add works to grace.
Not true.  Some may see it that way, others do not.  We can choose to follow Torah even though we are free not to.  What will you do with your time here?  Instead follow the guidance of TV preachers and self-help books on how to be a good Christian?

 

5. But Paul says…
Come back to me when you can quote more than just Paul.  The Apostle Peter says he can be hard to understand and his words are easy to twist (2 Peter 3:16).  Hopefully you should have more than enough material in the remaining 53 books to support your argument ? 

 

6. So what commandments should we keep?
This is a big subject.  I can post about it if there is genuine interest but it’s not 613!  This is a fallacy based on a taxonomy applied by the Jews.  That list includes many duplicates, commands which aren’t really commands in context, laws just for the Levites, laws for Temple Service, laws just for women, laws just for men, laws for certain situations if they arise etc.  Don’t let anyone scare you into thinking there are 613 to obey if you choose to be obedient to His Word, that’s nonsense.

 

7. Isn’t loving God and our neighbour all we need to do?
Indeed it is.  But what do you suppose it means to love Yahweh? Can a wife love her husband by singing him love songs and giving him much praise but then refusing the most simplest requests He makes?  Should she respond “What, if I don’t follow to this simple request are you saying I’m no longer your wife?”.  Neither is it a great attitude to say “What, if I don’t listen to this request from Yahweh am I no longer saved?” 

 

8. We need to warn people to follow Torah before it’s too late!
First, your heart should be to move towards your brothers and sisters with love and peace, not with aggression and bluntness.  Understand that you are saved by Grace – your Torah obedience means little to Yahweh compared to your interactions with others.  If you hurt, offend or confuse a fellow believer whilst teaching accurately the Sabbath, you have failed.  Love is the number one goal of the Torah and Gospel.  If it’s not our number one goal when teaching either, then we have failed.

 

9. I think arguments/debates are good.  They encourage growth
Not this one.  This one spirals out of control all the time and will repeat again and again.  This post will make little difference.  A Christian shouldn’t seek these type of arguments.  Peaceful debates with mutual respect is great – But this debate isn’t one benefiting from that.  If you love arguments and debates though, remember these wise words:  

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility consider others as more important than yourselves.  Everyone should look out not only for his interests, but also for the interests of others. ~ Philippians 2:3-4

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I think you are taking a lot of the debates out of context. I for one will state we are not under the law. We dont follow the law of Moses. But we are under the commandments of jesus. We are to follow the words of the Apostles in the letters of the new testament. We are to be transform by the renewing of our mind by the word of G od. But if the law of Moses is required then we are seeking to be justified by the law. This is important to understand.  

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1 hour ago, Wayne222 said:

I think you are taking a lot of the debates out of context

I agree. And then saying not going to name names as if people don’t know who is being attacked, I mean discussed, here. 

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4 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Before either side can discuss Torah and Grace, why not FIRST act in love, peace and long-suffering towards one another? Why not first assuming the BEST in each other, instead of the worse and slinging unreasonable accusations?  Otherwise this whole debate is meaningless.  You may win the post but so what?  You’ve lost the whole point.

I think the above point was missed already.

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4 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom to the chosen of Yahweh,

We see the same old arguments over and over again.  It’s tiresome for me and surely boring for many others.  

The pattern goes like this:  Someone posts something about the Law and someone else responds contesting it with Grace.  Then you’ll get the same arguments breakout, with many Scripture bombs, and basically it never gets resolved.

The problem is this:  The accusations that are made during the arguments, from both sides, are exaggerated and blown out of proportion, encouraged by the same handful of people.

  • Those for Torah can falsely accuse “You’re using Grace as a license to sin! What? If there is no Torah are you saying it’s okay to murder? Or commit adultery?”
  • Those for Grace can falsely accuse “You are under the law Judaizer!  What? Do you think you can keep all 613 commandments? You cannot add to the Messiah’s work”

Both these arguments are immature and foolish.  They are exaggerated accusations, based on genuine fears but acted upon irrationally and unreasonably.    

Before either side can discuss Torah and Grace, why not FIRST act in love, peace and long-suffering towards one another? Why not first assuming the BEST in each other, instead of the worse and slinging unreasonable accusations?  Otherwise this whole debate is meaningless.  You may win the post but so what?  You’ve lost the whole point.

There are a handful of people responsible for endorsing this behaviour, whom I will not name because of the rules of this forum.  They will say or imply that you are either for Torah entirely or for Grace entirely.  Much like the enemy’s schemes, they either pull us in one direction or push us into the other, so that we will fall into error from the narrow path between.

Indeed there is a path between Torah and Grace which others walk.   I could post more on this but, whilst the forum is in this childish-like state of slinging irrational responses, there is little point.

But let’s at least start with assuming the best in our brothers and sisters.  Consider their viewpoint without trying to categorise them as a this or that.  

As for those in here working against the Body with sheep’s clothing and honey-coated words –  their fruit is apparent in words and attitude.  I see you and hopefully others do to.  My advice to the rest is to ignore such people BUT don’t therefore ignore Torah or Grace because of their foolishness, which comes from either their ignorance or from the enemy (pushing or pulling).  

Consider that the truth is under constant attack from the enemy, in the world, the church and this forum.  Don’t be pushed too far this way or pulled too far that way.  Walk the path as dictated by the counsel of the whole Word of God and discuss with the assumption you still know little.  Only then can we all grow individually and in unity.

Love & Shalom

Yes. 1 Cor 13:2 is greater than what we know:

1 Corinthians 13:2 (NIV)
"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."

Your point is well taken---and who knows how many times we change our minds as the Spirit of God makes known to us what we see dimly, or are wrestling with? What a believer sees today may not be what he sees tomorrow. 
 

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3 minutes ago, appy said:

I think the above point was missed already.

Yes and I don't expect for the OP to change anything it the forum really. 

But if makes even just one person think differently the next time they see this repetitive argument reappear, that would be enough for me.

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There is a fine line between lovingly correcting a brother/sister, by one who thinks the other is in the wrong. But after a certain point, it is no longer a loving correction. It is then condemnation and abuse, because there are those whose sole goal is to win an argument at all costs. We can lovingly share with others what we believe and that is all. After an opinion has been voiced, it is then up to the recipient to decide what to do with that information. I can assure you, that if a person is sinning; it will be the Holy Spirit that will bring conviction and change to the person's heart. NOT us humans. This is the point the opster is trying to get across.

The same with witnessing to an unbeliever, once they have heard the gospel. It is then up to them to make a decision. Forcing an unbeliever through badgering them till they make a “confession” is NOT a good thing. For then , to get the admonisher off of his/her back they make a false confession in front of the admonisher. So for all your (collective your, no one here specifically) arguing and badgering, an unbeliever remains unsaved, because he/ she does not believe in their heart even though he/she made an oral confession.

In the same way, badgering others to believe as you do will cause them to give you a FALSE “I see the light now”. You've ( again, a collective you've) absolutely have gained nothing except entertainment value.

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8 minutes ago, appy said:

There is a fine line between lovingly correcting a brother/sister, by one who thinks the other is in the wrong. But after a certain point, it is no longer a loving correction. It is then condemnation and abuse, because there are those whose sole goal is to win an argument at all costs.

Amen Appy.   

In confrontation, gentleness  is quickly traded for pride.  Perhaps because others read the forums and some favour renown rather than humility? 

Regardless, we should assess our words, spoken AND written, as if it was said to another at the Great Wedding Feast to come.  If we wouldn't speak to a fellow believer at that Dinner Table as we do in this forum or church, then  what makes us think it's acceptable here?  If we feel as though we may speak with an attitude that we wouldn't use at that Feast, we should instead hold our tongues and refine our hearts with the Word, humbly.   Because there is no shame in silence, but there's plenty in bold speech.

Thank you for your comments Appy.

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1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

The issue is dogma.

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

When people first hear about God the Father they hear it through parents or teachers or preachers. With 41,000 denominations in the "Christian" world, the only thing we have to fall back onto for the truth is the Holy Spirit and the word of God which only He can help us discern. So we jump to the written word of God, but the devil has given us over 150 versions just in English. So which does one choose? See how the devil is obfuscating the truth?

The devil is the enemy but we treat each other as the enemy (to our dogma) and the traditions of men.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

So what are we to do? Keep in the word of God alone and understand Jesus didn't come to do away with the law but to fulfill it. So what does that mean? Before the cross, the law demanded perfection and gave no grace. After the cross, Jesus made a way to give us grace being dead to the law of sin, so that we can live without sin. People still sin, they're lied to that they cannot cease from sin, so they don't bother trying and fail to understand the grace. Hence the requirement to deal with the old man of sin through the spirit and overcome. To be a follower of Christ means to follow Him. Which of the Ten Commandments can a Christian break and still go to heaven? ALL OF THEM! Which of the Ten Commandments can we keep perfectly by following Jesus' example? ALL OF THEM! The Holy Spirit helps our weaknesses due to the old man (the flesh) and gives us the means to overcome. But when we habitually continue in sin, John says we're likely NOT Christians to begin with. Salvation is a gift by faith alone, but a true conversion into a new creature, requires us to strive to not sin any longer as proof of that conversion!

 

What does the word of God say about this?

 

1 John 3:1-10
See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 2:3
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 3:24
Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1 John 4:6, 13
We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. ... By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

 

Keeping the commandments is not about obtaining salvation, but proof of our salvation!

 

What commandments  ? The seventh day sabbath  ? The  ten commandments  ? They were part of the old covenant.  We keep the new testament commandments by grace.

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